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Use of diamond stones - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

That is what I do. In fact I have 2 SVST 93 and an SVST 92 with their shim kit with 2 extra  1 degree shims. and a SVST 94 guide

 

So I can make 3- 94's

 

3-93's 

 

1 92 

 

and more combos.of 95 and 96!  cuts down the time of changing stones for sure!

 



Thanks just wanted to verify with an expert.
post #32 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

That is what I do. In fact I have 2 SVST 93 and an SVST 92 with their shim kit with 2 extra  1 degree shims. and a SVST 94 guide

 

So I can make 3- 94's

 

3-93's 

 

1 92 

 

and more combos.of 95 and 96!  cuts down the time of changing stones for sure!

 



Thanks just wanted to verify with an expert.

:o :beercheer:

post #33 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

That is what I do. In fact I have 2 SVST 93 and an SVST 92 with their shim kit with 2 extra  1 degree shims. and a SVST 94 guide

 

So I can make 3- 94's

 

3-93's 

 

1 92 

 

and more combos.of 95 and 96!  cuts down the time of changing stones for sure!

Now there you go doing things "overkill" again. :D

 

It's ok, you're not alone.  Umm, do you think they have 12 step program for that.  Hmm, wonder if obamacare will cover it . ;)

post #34 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

That is what I do. In fact I have 2 SVST 93 and an SVST 92 with their shim kit with 2 extra  1 degree shims. and a SVST 94 guide

 

So I can make 3- 94's

 

3-93's 

 

1 92 

 

and more combos.of 95 and 96!  cuts down the time of changing stones for sure!

Now there you go doing things "overkill" again. :D

 

It's ok, you're not alone.  Umm, do you think they have 12 step program for that.  Hmm, wonder if obamacare will cover it . ;)


No need to over kill!  Sharp is sharp!

 


 

post #35 of 56
post #36 of 56
You guys really go to 600 or 1200(!!) regularly?
It's been awhile since I went past 400. But if i'm edging i'm waxing.

I also went through a non tuning phase to see how the other half lives on dull skis. ( more than half) Also learn how to ski a dull ski as sort of a merit badge or something.

Tell me the benefits of polishing the edges to 600 + as part of my rehabilitation...
post #37 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Tell me the benefits of polishing the edges to 600 + as part of my rehabilitation...

 

I don't know if it makes it better or not, but at least it doesn't make it worse!

post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

Now there you go doing things "overkill" again. :D

 

It's ok, you're not alone.  Umm, do you think they have 12 step program for that.  Hmm, wonder if obamacare will cover it . ;)

1st step is to admit you have a prolem, I ain't got no stinkin' problem! :devil:

post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Tell me the benefits of polishing the edges to 600 + as part of my rehabilitation...
I dunno; someone told me to buy 200, 400 & 600 diamond stones and I did, and now I use it because it's there. I also probably don't need an Arkansas or ceramic stone either, but it's cool to finish with the metal completely smooth to my middle-aged naked eyes and callused fingers. smile.gif
post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


I dunno; someone told me to buy 200, 400 & 600 diamond stones and I did, and now I use it because it's there. I also probably don't need an Arkansas or ceramic stone either, but it's cool to finish with the metal completely smooth to my middle-aged naked eyes and callused fingers. smile.gif

BLASPHEMY I SAY! :D

post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Max, 100 Grit is really only for the most egregious edge roughness.  I normally use a 200 and 400 and a surgical hard stone or just a 400 and a Surgical hardstone. 

 

100 is way to rough for everyday go to use. I only use a Hard blue gummi as my very final pass on the edge point with absolutley NO Pressure, of course this is after knocking the hanging burr off with an arkansas stone


yup, 200 and 400 is about all i use.  i will use a 1000 on speed skls or occasionally on my GS race pair but that is it.  When i use the grinder i will normally just give a couple od passes with the 400 or the 1000

post #42 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post

Friends, I have had some early modest success with tuning this year. No real file work yet, but a lot of edge polishing  with diamond stones. My progression: 100 to 200 to 400 to 600 and then arkansas stone to take the bur off and, using the guide, a final pass or two. If edges seem sharp, I do the 400 to 600 and stone only.
First question is how many passes with each stone is typical, and what are the variables. I do make marks along the edge with a marker and go until it is gone.
Second is how and when you decide to move to file work. I just do not have a sense of when the edges need more attention than the diamonds can provide.
Third is how you can actually tell, on the bench, how sharp the edges are. Is there anything more accurate than just feeling it or sacrificing a bit of finger nail.
Tx
D1

You've received several replies on which stones to use and I'm sure it is clear as mud, so I won't add to the confusion. I will say that I agree with not using the 100 unless it is pre filing or for a spot of damage.

Your first question was only half answered (which stones). You also asked how many passes? I don't have a set amount. I listen and feel for it. When I don't hear or feel a spot of roughness, I move on. Usually that is only 2-3 passes. I do short back and forth overlapping strokes about 12-18" long up then back down the entire edge.

The variables are if there is any damage or me stopping for another beer and I forgot where I left off, so I go back a step. Especially if I'm a few pairs of skis and beers in.

I usually only do the marks "along" the edge when I'm working on skis that are being filed, or skis that have me tuning them for the first time (I.e. Back from a shop getting a tune). It isn't about trust but variability between edge guides and techniques. Every now and again I'll make marks "across" the edge in about four or five places just to make sure things are still in order or I'm trying something new (like in the post about the 7* guide and panzer file to remove sidewall). In either case, I don't use the mark for a measure of when I'm done but whether I'm getting the entire edge. Once I'm sure I am, I don't bother marking.

For when to use a file, I go by a couple things and I lean towards not using it.
1) I know the does were set to a different angle than I want
2) I know there is damage beyond what a stone can handle.
3) the marks I've been making across or along are showing things aren't lining up.

There are probably other reasons but those are typically what triggers me. You might not have a sense for it because you are staying up on you preventive maintenance (stones) so you don't need to do corrective maintenance (file). Especially since you've been including the 100 grit, which I consider more corrective than preventive maintenance. It might be that in using it, you are doing the equivalent of a light filing, so are delaying the need for filing.

For testing sharpness, when sharpening knives I go for shaving hairs on the back of my hand. I don't see doing that with a ski. I instead rely on following the process. I go for a clean and smooth edge. I make sure to keep knocking the burr down and the final test is when I'm skiing.

I also think that most folks, myself included, keep their edges sharper than needed. I'm not changing what I do but there sure are a lot of good skiers out there that don't do a fraction of what I do.

Ken
post #43 of 56

I don't agree with short stroke as mentioned above. One continuous movement from tip to tail will give you a more consistent edge.

 

I also don't worry about a nick, just do the the continuous movement, it will tune out over time. Don't spend a lot of effort to get it out.

 

You'll feel the diamond stone run smoothly over the high spot from the nick, after a couple of passes you'll feel it has been equaled to the rest of the edge. You may still see or feel it id you touch it, but you won't feel it skiing.

 

The idea isto take off as little metal as possible and still be sharp...for most of the edge, that small low spot doesn't matter.

post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

I don't agree with short stroke as mentioned above. One continuous movement from tip to tail will give you a more consistent edge.

 

I also don't worry about a nick, just do the the continuous movement, it will tune out over time. Don't spend a lot of effort to get it out.

 

You'll feel the diamond stone run smoothly over the high spot from the nick, after a couple of passes you'll feel it has been equaled to the rest of the edge. You may still see or feel it id you touch it, but you won't feel it skiing.

 

The idea isto take off as little metal as possible and still be sharp...for most of the edge, that small low spot doesn't matter.

Max, I'm calling voodo on that one. Diamond stones cut any direction including sideways. Back and forth overlapping is just fine and will make the job quicker. Are you really making one long pass with the diamond stone then going back to the beginning? Waste of time. There's little diff in edge removal either. You're talking diamond stones here, not filing.

Don't make me go get Atomicman...

 

As for nicks and dings, well you'll have to live with it. Get the parts that stick up off. You are not getting craters in the edge out. This is why people who race don't take their skis over rocks and people who ski rocks don't race with those skis. There's nothing you can do about it once you've destroyed the metal.

Maybe one of these days a shop will start micro tig welding edges. Until then, remove metal with rock, live with it. Trying to get rid of the Grand Canyon means you're at the bottom of it and it's now Nebraska. - flat. No edge left. Ski finished. Done. Make chair.

post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Max, I'm calling voodo on that one. Diamond stones cut any direction including sideways. Back and forth overlapping is just fine and will make the job quicker. Are you really making one long pass with the diamond stone then going back to the beginning? Waste of time. There's little diff in edge removal either. You're talking diamond stones here, not filing.

Don't make me go get Atomicman...

 

As for nicks and dings, well you'll have to live with it. Get the parts that stick up off. You are not getting craters in the edge out. This is why people who race don't take their skis over rocks and people who ski rocks don't race with those skis. There's nothing you can do about it once you've destroyed the metal.

Maybe one of these days a shop will start micro tig welding edges. Until then, remove metal with rock, live with it. Trying to get rid of the Grand Canyon means you're at the bottom of it and it's now Nebraska. - flat. No edge left. Ski finished. Done. Make chair.

Agreeing again.........Horrifying!!!!:D

post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


You've received several replies on which stones to use and I'm sure it is clear as mud, so I won't add to the confusion. I will say that I agree with not using the 100 unless it is pre filing or for a spot of damage.

Your first question was only half answered (which stones). You also asked how many passes? I don't have a set amount. I listen and feel for it. When I don't hear or feel a spot of roughness, I move on. Usually that is only 2-3 passes. I do short back and forth overlapping strokes about 12-18" long up then back down the entire edge.

The variables are if there is any damage or me stopping for another beer and I forgot where I left off, so I go back a step. Especially if I'm a few pairs of skis and beers in.

I usually only do the marks "along" the edge when I'm working on skis that are being filed, or skis that have me tuning them for the first time (I.e. Back from a shop getting a tune). It isn't about trust but variability between edge guides and techniques. Every now and again I'll make marks "across" the edge in about four or five places just to make sure things are still in order or I'm trying something new (like in the post about the 7* guide and panzer file to remove sidewall). In either case, I don't use the mark for a measure of when I'm done but whether I'm getting the entire edge. Once I'm sure I am, I don't bother marking.

For when to use a file, I go by a couple things and I lean towards not using it.
1) I know the does were set to a different angle than I want
2) I know there is damage beyond what a stone can handle.
3) the marks I've been making across or along are showing things aren't lining up.

There are probably other reasons but those are typically what triggers me. You might not have a sense for it because you are staying up on you preventive maintenance (stones) so you don't need to do corrective maintenance (file). Especially since you've been including the 100 grit, which I consider more corrective than preventive maintenance. It might be that in using it, you are doing the equivalent of a light filing, so are delaying the need for filing.

For testing sharpness, when sharpening knives I go for shaving hairs on the back of my hand. I don't see doing that with a ski. I instead rely on following the process. I go for a clean and smooth edge. I make sure to keep knocking the burr down and the final test is when I'm skiing.

I also think that most folks, myself included, keep their edges sharper than needed. I'm not changing what I do but there sure are a lot of good skiers out there that don't do a fraction of what I do.

Ken

sharper than needed??? WTF is that? 

post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

sharper than needed??? WTF is that?

When I wrote that, my first thought was "AMan will call me on this." :beercheer:

post #48 of 56
Sharper than needed would be anything more acute than a 1/1 or 1/2side. So anything less than 89 degrees.
According to that "World Cup Tuner" who wrote the book in the other thread.
post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

sharper than needed??? WTF is that? 


sounds like a mixed oxymoron to me.....  :D 

post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post
 


sounds like a mixed oxymoron to me.....  :D 

Thumbs Up :ROTF

post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Sharper than needed would be anything more acute than a 1/1 or 1/2side. So anything less than 89 degrees.
According to that "World Cup Tuner" who wrote the book in the other thread.

 

There is a difference between sharp and the degree the edges are set at.  A 1/1 or 1/2 can be dull too.

 

My comment was really targeting going to a 1200 grit stone on recreational skis and it probably isn't necessary.  I might have used the wrong word (sharper) as I'm not sure going to a higher grit makes them sharper or just smoother and cleaner.

post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Sharper than needed would be anything more acute than a 1/1 or 1/2side. So anything less than 89 degrees.
According to that "World Cup Tuner" who wrote the book in the other thread.

 

There is a difference between sharp and the degree the edges are set at.  A 1/1 or 1/2 can be dull too.

 

My comment was really targeting going to a 1200 grit stone on recreational skis and it probably isn't necessary.  I might have used the wrong word (sharper) as I'm not sure going to a higher grit makes them sharper or just smoother and cleaner.


Surely not necessary, but it shines like a demon!

post #53 of 56

A little use of fire to clean diamond stones is applicable, fire must come from a book  that suggests 1/1 or 1/2 is a good idea. 

 

To judge temperature of the stones by the pain in the fingers holding the stones.  If its too hot for the fingers,  its too hot for the stones :eek.

 

No safety gloves required ;).

 

If other cleaning methods are used, burning the book is still ok as it warms the hearts of serious tuners :beercheer:.

post #54 of 56

Old Chinese Proverb: Too Hot to Touch, Too Hot To Drink!

 

Ever notice Chinese tea cups have no handle? :D

post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


You've received several replies on which stones to use and I'm sure it is clear as mud, so I won't add to the confusion. I will say that I agree with not using the 100 unless it is pre filing or for a spot of damage.

Your first question was only half answered (which stones). You also asked how many passes? I don't have a set amount. I listen and feel for it. When I don't hear or feel a spot of roughness, I move on. Usually that is only 2-3 passes. I do short back and forth overlapping strokes about 12-18" long up then back down the entire edge.

The variables are if there is any damage or me stopping for another beer and I forgot where I left off, so I go back a step. Especially if I'm a few pairs of skis and beers in.

I usually only do the marks "along" the edge when I'm working on skis that are being filed, or skis that have me tuning them for the first time (I.e. Back from a shop getting a tune). It isn't about trust but variability between edge guides and techniques. Every now and again I'll make marks "across" the edge in about four or five places just to make sure things are still in order or I'm trying something new (like in the post about the 7* guide and panzer file to remove sidewall). In either case, I don't use the mark for a measure of when I'm done but whether I'm getting the entire edge. Once I'm sure I am, I don't bother marking.

For when to use a file, I go by a couple things and I lean towards not using it.
1) I know the does were set to a different angle than I want
2) I know there is damage beyond what a stone can handle.
3) the marks I've been making across or along are showing things aren't lining up.

There are probably other reasons but those are typically what triggers me. You might not have a sense for it because you are staying up on you preventive maintenance (stones) so you don't need to do corrective maintenance (file). Especially since you've been including the 100 grit, which I consider more corrective than preventive maintenance. It might be that in using it, you are doing the equivalent of a light filing, so are delaying the need for filing.

For testing sharpness, when sharpening knives I go for shaving hairs on the back of my hand. I don't see doing that with a ski. I instead rely on following the process. I go for a clean and smooth edge. I make sure to keep knocking the burr down and the final test is when I'm skiing.

I also think that most folks, myself included, keep their edges sharper than needed. I'm not changing what I do but there sure are a lot of good skiers out there that don't do a fraction of what I do.

Ken

sharper than needed??? WTF is that? 

Sharper than needed means that not all of us are skiing water injected race courses in search of 100th's of seconds. One thing I wonder is this: I know woodworking tools need as sharp and as smooth an edge as possible--I sharpen mine to 8000 grit with water stones and then hone with jeweler's rouge and a leather buffing wheel in my drill press. I can easily shave with my tools. But my understanding of kitchen knives is that when cutting anything softer, serrations work better. Bread knives and grapefruit/tomato knives of course use macro serrations but even smooth edged chef's knives have micro serrations you need an electron microscope to see--much more serrated than woodworking tools. So the question is which works better on snow. I suspect the answer is--depends on the snow.

post #56 of 56

many of us are, however, skiing on hard hardpack and ice. In these cases, anything less than "sharp" is inadequate for our performance requirements. 

 

Although I can see how, say, my cousins who ski Silver Star and Big White would consider my tuning process overkill. 

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