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Sidewall planer for newbie

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

Having dipped my toe into the world of tuning this year, I now have a need for a sidewall planer. When I use my diamond stones, I am seeing some plastic imbedded. I have looked at several of the offerings but can not discern whether there is any real difference among them - except price-wise. I would particularly be interested in one that is easiest to use.

Thanks

D1

post #2 of 29
There are toys, tools and instruments ranging from $30 to $250. The better ones will do a better job but there is still the finishing process of sanding down and polishing the sidewall when done.
post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

There are toys, tools and instruments ranging from $30 to $250. The better ones will do a better job but there is still the finishing process of sanding down and polishing the sidewall when done.

Phil,

Thanks for that. Do you have any planer favorites?

Tx

D

post #4 of 29

The dual blade sidewall cutter from Swix is a pretty good piece.  I've used quite a few different ones but if I was looking for one that does a good job, is easy to use, and won't break the bank, the Swix dual blade would be my first pick. 

http://www.artechski.com/swix-dual-blade-sidewall-planer/

 

Also, no matter which sidewall cutter you use, a Panzer file should be in every tuners box.  The panzer file is one of those tools I never want to be without because they serve so many uses.

post #5 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post
 

Having dipped my toe into the world of tuning this year, I now have a need for a sidewall planer. When I use my diamond stones, I am seeing some plastic imbedded. I have looked at several of the offerings but can not discern whether there is any real difference among them - except price-wise. I would particularly be interested in one that is easiest to use.

Thanks

D1

http://www.fktools-us.com/Product-Details.asp?Part-Number=3148

 

 

I have owned damn near all of them...This is the best!!! And easiest. Solid, adjustable for depth and horizontal alignment and has a round and square blade!

 

And as MOJO said get comfy with a Panzer file And http://www.artechski.com/artech-side-edge-file-guides/ also has a 7 degree side bevel tool to start your sidewall planing with the Panzer

post #6 of 29
I second A-man on the FK planer. For the price you can't beat it.

Whatever tool you end up with, start slow on some skis you don't care about. Sidewall planing is all about feel.
post #7 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothRides View Post

I second A-man on the FK planer. For the price you can't beat it.

Whatever tool you end up with, start slow on some skis you don't care about. Sidewall planing is all about feel.

Yes the key is whatever tool you use is to take off a very little bit at a time. Never go deep, better to make multipe very shallow passes!

post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 

Gents, thanks much for the suggestions. I will warm up my cc.

Could someone please explain the use of the panzer file (and sand paper) on the side wall. A-man, I have the Artech guide (92 or 93) for a 3* side edge. Looks like the one you linked to. Is it?

Tx again.

D

post #9 of 29
The cheap FK also works decently esp on abs sidewalls. Less well on cap skis but i've used it on those. I've used it for years. I say cheap cause it used to be $20 now i see some charge 45. At that i'd go with Aman's rec which is $100 or less Wow a few years ago i could have gotten that Swix Pro before it was Swix for $115 now it's 330.

kunzmann-side-wall-stripper_01.jpg
$35
http://www.reliableracing.com/detail.cfm?edp=10568749

fk pro:
http://www.fktools-us.com/Product-Details.asp?Part-Number=3148
post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post
 

Gents, thanks much for the suggestions. I will warm up my cc.

Could someone please explain the use of the panzer file (and sand paper) on the side wall. A-man, I have the Artech guide (92 or 93) for a 3* side edge. Looks like the one you linked to. Is it?

Tx again.

D

Same one but you want the 7 degree for for sidewall This is basically how I do my side edges.

 

– setting the side edge angle – Now, you are ready to dive in to the steel. Most folks are running a 3 degree side edge angle today for all skis;  I like to make 1 or 2 passes with a 5 to 7 degree angle using a cross (panzer) file along the whole length of the edge; this allows the top corner of the steel to blend nicely with the sidewall. Next, begin sharpening your side edges using the cross (panzer) file and 1 degree more than you intend to run – use a 4 degree if you intend to finish with a 3. When you have a sharp ski from tip to tail, move to a mid or small sized file with the final angle you want, and continue sharpening. The process of finishing the side edge is designed to continually smooth out the previous work, leaving you with a nice smooth, grippy edge. I like to make a few passes with a middle grit diamond file next, of course attached to the file guide. This will really soften the rough effect that the file has left. At this point in a new ski prep, I will take an Arkansas or ceramic stone and lightly pass it along the base edge to cut the “curl” of steel that has developed from all this filing. I usually do this freehand, with light to medium pressure. (I actually do the hanging burr ("cut the curl") removal very last. Now you are ready to really put the edge on – use your Arkansas or ceramic stone with your file guide, and begin working the side edge steel back and forth until it is extremely smooth and sharp. A very light no pressure pass on the  edge pointwith your a hard blue gummi block will finish the edge off, and you should have a very sharp, smooth edge that is ready to ski. 

post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Same one but you want the 7 degree for for sidewall This is basically how I do my side edges.

 

– setting the side edge angle – Now, you are ready to dive in to the steel. Most folks are running a 3 degree side edge angle today for all skis;  I like to make 1 or 2 passes with a 5 to 7 degree angle using a cross (panzer) file along the whole length of the edge; this allows the top corner of the steel to blend nicely with the sidewall. Next, begin sharpening your side edges using the cross (panzer) file and 1 degree more than you intend to run – use a 4 degree if you intend to finish with a 3. When you have a sharp ski from tip to tail, move to a mid or small sized file with the final angle you want, and continue sharpening. The process of finishing the side edge is designed to continually smooth out the previous work, leaving you with a nice smooth, grippy edge. I like to make a few passes with a middle grit diamond file next, of course attached to the file guide. This will really soften the rough effect that the file has left. At this point in a new ski prep, I will take an Arkansas or ceramic stone and lightly pass it along the base edge to cut the “curl” of steel that has developed from all this filing. I usually do this freehand, with light to medium pressure. (I actually do the hanging burr ("cut the curl") removal very last. Now you are ready to really put the edge on – use your Arkansas or ceramic stone with your file guide, and begin working the side edge steel back and forth until it is extremely smooth and sharp. A very light no pressure pass on the  edge pointwith your a hard blue gummi block will finish the edge off, and you should have a very sharp, smooth edge that is ready to ski. 

So is the purpose of filing the sidewall to take down the metal top edge, and then to take down the sidewall itself with the sidewall planer. If so, file or plane first?

Tx again.

D1

post #12 of 29
I just do the whole job with a 7 degree panzer. Since it's not a precision job (or at least doesn't have to be) you don't need a dedicated precision guide. You are just getting it out of the way so you don't clog your file or stone, and you don't want it jagged on a macroscopic scale. I use a multi-tool http://www.slidewright.com/tools4boards-xact-3-in-1-ski--snowboard-base--side-edge-tool.php
I have from before I switched to dedicated guides for edges. Ok, it only goes to 6 degrees -- close enough!

Unless you are racing seriously, Atomicman's process is way overkill.

edit - "whole job" = sidewall removal, not the whole edge tuing job.
post #13 of 29
Yep it's only to remove the plastic so it does gum up you file/ stone.

Or...what he said ^ smile.gif


I wonder why the newer cutters seem to have round cutters ? My old one has a square cutter.


I take off about .030" of the plastic that's seems to last about a season of tuning for me. I ski and touch up the edges over 50 days a season.
post #14 of 29

Round can work better on cap skis. Square on Abs - usually found on sandwich laminates.

 

D1, usually you plane, then 7deg, then file then stone. Or, just plane and file. You don't have to do the + 1 deg filing, then your angle filing. I almost never do.

Sanding the sidewall and feathering everything in is elegant, but I've never done it. I did but a pair of skis from someone where StartHaus did it. It was nice, but sanded off the boot sole mark nearly completely. So if you do sand the sidewall, (massive overkill unless you're a high edge angle carver AND a hypermiler car driver), mark the sole mark on top sheet.

Abs sidewall planing is one of the most satisfying jobs. You get nice long curling strips of plastic and a touch of alum it there's metal in the ski bottom.

post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

Unless you are racing seriously, Atomicman's process is way overkill.

 

 

You're probably correct.  But, and I'm speaking from personal experience, when you spend a lot of time doing race skis and you become good at it, you kind of develop certain OCDism's with regard to detail because any advantage you may have as the tuner, is all in the details.  It's typically not one big thing you do that helps your skis be faster but rather a number of small things that all add up.  And when that same person works on rec skis, it's hard for them to not do things in an "overkill" as you put it, way.  

 

Think of it like this, you ask really good artist to draw a stick person, then you ask a average person to draw the same thing.  The average joe will have it done in a matter of seconds while the really good artist takes considerably longer.  The artists stick person is off the chart good, likely because of the detail they put into it, while the average joe's stick person is just adequate.  Adquate, in some things, such as our stick person, is certainly fine but for some, after they've spent countless hours honing and developing their craft, is something they can't simply turn on or off because they only know how to do things a certain way.  You call it "overkill" but we call it attention to detail, even if that attention to detail is unnecessary. ;) 


Edited by MoJo23 - 1/7/15 at 2:49pm
post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

There are toys, tools and instruments ranging from $30 to $250. The better ones will do a better job but there is still the finishing process of sanding down and polishing the sidewall when done.

Phil,

Thanks for that. Do you have any planer favorites?

Tx

D

This is the one we use in our shop, but we do hundreds of skis a season. 

 

Swix World Cup Sidewall Planer 

post #17 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

I just do the whole job with a 7 degree panzer. Since it's not a precision job (or at least doesn't have to be) you don't need a dedicated precision guide. You are just getting it out of the way so you don't clog your file or stone, and you don't want it jagged on a macroscopic scale. I use a multi-tool http://www.slidewright.com/tools4boards-xact-3-in-1-ski--snowboard-base--side-edge-tool.php
I have from before I switched to dedicated guides for edges. Ok, it only goes to 6 degrees -- close enough!

Unless you are racing seriously, Atomicman's process is way overkill.

edit - "whole job" = sidewall removal, not the whole edge tuing job.


Same here. Not a racer. The panzer with a 7 degree is cheap and effective.

post #18 of 29

^ That's the one I shoulda bought from PJ for barely over 100$. Italian as I remember.

 

BTW, for an Iron, I recommend a Star Iron. Made in Italy. That's the one Hohlmenkohl sells as a Digital.  I got the non - dig on sale from StartHaus.

 

Review:

http://www.nordicskiracer.com/news.asp?NewsID=1295#.VK2nYXt1yyo

 

$230. Goes to 180C for flouros. This Iron is way better than the Swix and Toko Irons. Easy to clean the plate area. Cork is nice touch.

 

http://shop.caldwellsport.com/star-digital-iron/

Hohlmenkohl sells the Clear version which I'm not fond of.

 

I have this one from Start Haus. Non - Dig version. Not sure why it's more $.

http://starthaus.com/holmenkol-electric-racing-waxer-iron-110-volts.html

post #19 of 29

Hardly overkill, you do this once when the ski is new and then once after a stone grind (the only time I use an actual file on the side edges unless I am changing side edge bevels) 

 

Maybe this is why my skis hold an edge when other a re flailing!:p 

 

Just ask sofort99 who bought my Head i.sl RD's.

 

It is not just the .7/4 he is raving about......................it is the art of the edge!!!!!

 

And it is hardly any more work than what you ahve to do anyway. Might as well go Professional Grade.............Just like GMC!

post #20 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

The cheap FK also works decently esp on abs sidewalls. Less well on cap skis but i've used it on those. I've used it for years. I say cheap cause it used to be $20 now i see some charge 45. At that i'd go with Aman's rec which is $100 or less Wow a few years ago i could have gotten that Swix Pro before it was Swix for $115 now it's 330.

kunzmann-side-wall-stripper_01.jpg
$35
http://www.reliableracing.com/detail.cfm?edp=10568749

fk pro:
http://www.fktools-us.com/Product-Details.asp?Part-Number=3148
I hates it! I know many people get good results with it, and more power to them if they can do the job with a $30 tool, but I found it hard to control and a little baffling to make fine adjustments with. It did less damage to sandwich sidewalls, but I still ended up sanding quite a bit to remove chatter marks before breaking out the economy version of the Swix Dual Blade Sidewall Planer, which is easier (for me, at least) to adjust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

I just do the whole job with a 7 degree panzer. Since it's not a precision job (or at least doesn't have to be) you don't need a dedicated precision guide. You are just getting it out of the way so you don't clog your file or stone, and you don't want it jagged on a macroscopic scale. I use a multi-tool http://www.slidewright.com/tools4boards-xact-3-in-1-ski--snowboard-base--side-edge-tool.php
I have from before I switched to dedicated guides for edges. Ok, it only goes to 6 degrees -- close enough!
Doh! I forgot I had that thing lying around; now I don't have to buy anything to use my little bit o' panzar to work on sidewalls. Might as well be good for something! Given that the biggest angle I'd put on my sides is 3 degrees, 5 or 6 degrees is plenty of clearance for setting or maintaining the edge.

Has anyone used this thing? It looks nice, but what do I know?
post #21 of 29
Quote:
I hates it! I know many people get good results with it, and more power to them if they can do the job with a $30 tool, but I found it hard to control and a little baffling to make fine adjustments with. It did less damage to sandwich sidewalls, but I still ended up sanding quite a bit to remove chatter marks before breaking out the economy version of the Swix Dual Blade Sidewall Planer, which is easier (for me, at least) to adjust.
It's probably the two little brass screws you can adjust for depth. You may have it too deep. Also it seems to help if the trailing screw is further out, device is higher from surface, than the leading edge. Also you want some downward force to it as you pull. You can pull a shaving nearly the whole length of the ski at times. Other times you do it in short runs.
Sure you get chatter at times but it's more ripples produced. Major chatter is a sign of wrong setup and use. This is on abs sidewalls. It's not pleasant on some cap skis.
post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Quote:
I hates it! I know many people get good results with it, and more power to them if they can do the job with a $30 tool, but I found it hard to control and a little baffling to make fine adjustments with. It did less damage to sandwich sidewalls, but I still ended up sanding quite a bit to remove chatter marks before breaking out the economy version of the Swix Dual Blade Sidewall Planer, which is easier (for me, at least) to adjust.
It's probably the two little brass screws you can adjust for depth. You may have it too deep. Also it seems to help if the trailing screw is further out, device is higher from surface, than the leading edge. Also you want some downward force to it as you pull. You can pull a shaving nearly the whole length of the ski at times. Other times you do it in short runs.
Sure you get chatter at times but it's more ripples produced. Major chatter is a sign of wrong setup and use. This is on abs sidewalls. It's not pleasant on some cap skis.

Yeah, that's the one I have, that seems to just abrade the cap section rather than cutting it.

Agree about the screws, on real sidewalls. I end up making a few passes until I'm getting nothing, then backing out the screws a quarter turn and doing it again. I.e., tiny bites.
post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Quote:
I hates it! I know many people get good results with it, and more power to them if they can do the job with a $30 tool, but I found it hard to control and a little baffling to make fine adjustments with. It did less damage to sandwich sidewalls, but I still ended up sanding quite a bit to remove chatter marks before breaking out the economy version of the Swix Dual Blade Sidewall Planer, which is easier (for me, at least) to adjust.
It's probably the two little brass screws you can adjust for depth. You may have it too deep. Also it seems to help if the trailing screw is further out, device is higher from surface, than the leading edge. Also you want some downward force to it as you pull. You can pull a shaving nearly the whole length of the ski at times. Other times you do it in short runs.
Sure you get chatter at times but it's more ripples produced. Major chatter is a sign of wrong setup and use. This is on abs sidewalls. It's not pleasant on some cap skis.
I started using it on the cap skis that needed work and made a real hash of it despite taking a lot of advice on adjusting the screws. I'll confess that after quite a bit of sanding and fussing I (quite accidentally) dropped it and cracked the housing for one of the adjustment screws, which gave me an excuse to buy the Swix. After I saw how easy it was to use the Swix on phenolic sidewalls I tried the still-badly-adjusted FK tool on them, which behaved better than on the cap skis--but was still difficult.

Nonetheless, I'm completely open to the possibility that I just got confused about the adjustments and never gave the tool a chance to operate when set up correctly, and that it was as likely as not my spazzy nature that kept me from getting it to work. I guess we'll never know...rolleyes.gif
post #24 of 29
You just dropped it?
See, a professional would have hit it with a hammer.
Make note for next tuning kit.

If you started with a cap ski - oy vey what a mess.
Next solution- get rid of the cap ski.
post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

You just dropped it?
See, a professional would have hit it with a hammer.
Make note for next tuning kit.
I just did a Southern Belle sort of thing, turned around and--woops!!--knocked it off the table. Totally accidental. Now that I have a circular saw I think I'd just clamp it to a table and practice my nice, clean, thin cuts. devil.gif
Quote:
If you started with a cap ski - oy vey what a mess.
Next solution- get rid of the cap ski.
I never thought I'd say this, because I loved those skis for smearing and cheating, but I think that's what I'm going to do. Problem is that they're my fat-mid-fats, and although I know exactly which carver I want to buy, I haven't given any thought to 95-100-ish width skis (I'm relatively little, so no 125mm skis for me--although I did ride a lift with a woman about my size in Volkl Ones the other day). rolleyes.gif
post #26 of 29
Well they're all raving about those Head Joys in that other thread.

To be fair, there are good cap skis out there. I think... :-)
post #27 of 29
I use my beater chisel, works well enough for me. I only have two pairs of skis and don't tune for anybody else so not worth it to get a tool that I'll use once every year or less. Oh and this is for plastic sidewall skis, don't do it on fiberglass cap ski, use a file.

0pir_zpsef59506c.jpg~original
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Same one but you want the 7 degree for for sidewall This is basically how I do my side edges.

 

– setting the side edge angle – Now, you are ready to dive in to the steel. Most folks are running a 3 degree side edge angle today for all skis;  I like to make 1 or 2 passes with a 5 to 7 degree angle using a cross (panzer) file along the whole length of the edge; this allows the top corner of the steel to blend nicely with the sidewall. Next, begin sharpening your side edges using the cross (panzer) file and 1 degree more than you intend to run – use a 4 degree if you intend to finish with a 3. When you have a sharp ski from tip to tail, move to a mid or small sized file with the final angle you want, and continue sharpening. The process of finishing the side edge is designed to continually smooth out the previous work, leaving you with a nice smooth, grippy edge. I like to make a few passes with a middle grit diamond file next, of course attached to the file guide. This will really soften the rough effect that the file has left. At this point in a new ski prep, I will take an Arkansas or ceramic stone and lightly pass it along the base edge to cut the “curl” of steel that has developed from all this filing. I usually do this freehand, with light to medium pressure. (I actually do the hanging burr ("cut the curl") removal very last. Now you are ready to really put the edge on – use your Arkansas or ceramic stone with your file guide, and begin working the side edge steel back and forth until it is extremely smooth and sharp. A very light no pressure pass on the  edge pointwith your a hard blue gummi block will finish the edge off, and you should have a very sharp, smooth edge that is ready to ski. 

So is the purpose of filing the sidewall to take down the metal top edge, and then to take down the sidewall itself with the sidewall planer. If so, file or plane first?

Tx again.

D1

Here are three examples.  Long video.

 

post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

...there is still the finishing process of sanding down and polishing the sidewall when done.

 

If you're not racing and aren't worried about the minor speed impact, why bother sanding? 

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