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Newbie question: longer skis leading to tips crossing - Page 2

post #31 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
How about we all call a truce for the benefit of those on this forum and discuss ideas rather than personalities?  I have no interest in allowing this thread to devolve further and devoting any more energy to it. Your are free to accept or reject my ideas at your discretion. I am happy to discuss my ideas with any interested parties even if they seem might seem different. 

 

I'm just really curious as to how it seemed reasonable to you to pin a skier's problem on something specific without ever seeing that person ski? I really, really want to know what mental process made you think that was a good idea. 

post #32 of 44

Would you not agree that tips crossing are a result of the outside ski turning at a higher rate than the inside?  It is then the cause that we have to look for to correct. Again, would you not agree? 

 

If the skier is (for whatever reason) outside ski dominant or conversely inside ski lazy, then it would be a very good guess that at that moment the resultant turn shape would not be good. Right?  Either way, the inside ski has to be moved out of the way to avoid the tip cross. And you've been around long enough to go thru the Wedge Christie I and II, then up unweighted parallel. Do we do that way any longer?  Of course not. The modern turn does not use the outside ski to push into the turn followed by matching the inside. The inside ski is guided, and the interaction of that ski in the snow provides a certain amount of resistance that then transfers to the outside which is enabled to turn as well. .    

 

Regardless of whether the skier is in the back seat, leaning up the hill... whatever, the CoM has to be adjusted to ride the skis without interfering with function. An oversimplification, for sure, but true at every level. 

 

So, what causes most issues with new skiers?  Loss of control and fear. Right? Why the loss of control?  Assuming they are on the correct terrain for their ability, they get going too fast because they haven't learned to use their turns to control their speed. Teaching how turn shape is speed control provides confidence and confidence helps to keep new skiers from doing funky things. If tips are crossing, how are you going to tell the skier how they can avoid this? Gotta move the inside ski out of the way, right?  And how will they best be able to do this?  If they have their body in the right position as they guide their skis through the shape. You could just tell them to get the inside ski out of the way, but that would be kind of aimless, no? Turn shape provides speed control and purpose. 

 

  As a side note, a proper turn shape prepares the skier for carved turns down the road as it teaches the skier patience and allowing the ski to largely move thru it's own path as it shapes the turn. Rotary then blends into edging into pure carved turns, which lead to dynamics as the skier progresses. 

 

The three things that I listed can be adjusted and adapted for every level of skier. As an example, what's the most important thing for a racer?  Wouldn't you agree it is line?  Even though a racers' line won't be the same shape as a recreational turn shape and is largely predetermined by the course, it is turn shape nonetheless. And because of the dynamics racers and expert skiers experience, would you not also agree that the inside leg must remain active. And lastly, would you not agree that continuously adjusting balance and CoM is essential for the expert or racer?  Why would these things not apply at every level?

 

My approach begins at the snow level. Turn shape. A shape IN THE SNOW.  Secondly, active inside ski- Movement at the foot level anchored at the hip.  Third- Transitioning CoM... balance to aid function. All of this built literally from the ground up.   How can you find disagreement with any of this? 

post #33 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

Would you not agree that tips crossing are a result of the outside ski turning at a higher rate than the inside?  It is then the cause that we have to look for to correct. Again, would you not agree? 

 

If the skier is (for whatever reason) outside ski dominant or conversely inside ski lazy, then it would be a very good guess that at that moment the resultant turn shape would not be good. Right?  Either way, the inside ski has to be moved out of the way to avoid the tip cross. And you've been around long enough to go thru the Wedge Christie I and II, then up unweighted parallel. Do we do that way any longer?  Of course not. The modern turn does not use the outside ski to push into the turn followed by matching the inside. The inside ski is guided, and the interaction of that ski in the snow provides a certain amount of resistance that then transfers to the outside which is enabled to turn as well. .    

 

Regardless of whether the skier is in the back seat, leaning up the hill... whatever, the CoM has to be adjusted to ride the skis without interfering with function. An oversimplification, for sure, but true at every level. 

 

So, what causes most issues with new skiers?  Loss of control and fear. Right? Why the loss of control?  Assuming they are on the correct terrain for their ability, they get going too fast because they haven't learned to use their turns to control their speed. Teaching how turn shape is speed control provides confidence and confidence helps to keep new skiers from doing funky things. If tips are crossing, how are you going to tell the skier how they can avoid this? Gotta move the inside ski out of the way, right?  And how will they best be able to do this?  If they have their body in the right position as they guide their skis through the shape. You could just tell them to get the inside ski out of the way, but that would be kind of aimless, no? Turn shape provides speed control and purpose. 

 

  As a side note, a proper turn shape prepares the skier for carved turns down the road as it teaches the skier patience and allowing the ski to largely move thru it's own path as it shapes the turn. Rotary then blends into edging into pure carved turns, which lead to dynamics as the skier progresses. 

 

The three things that I listed can be adjusted and adapted for every level of skier. As an example, what's the most important thing for a racer?  Wouldn't you agree it is line?  Even though a racers' line won't be the same shape as a recreational turn shape and is largely predetermined by the course, it is turn shape nonetheless. And because of the dynamics racers and expert skiers experience, would you not also agree that the inside leg must remain active. And lastly, would you not agree that continuously adjusting balance and CoM is essential for the expert or racer?  Why would these things not apply at every level?

 

My approach begins at the snow level. Turn shape. A shape IN THE SNOW.  Secondly, active inside ski- Movement at the foot level anchored at the hip.  Third- Transitioning CoM... balance to aid function. All of this built literally from the ground up.   How can you find disagreement with any of this? 

At no point have I disagreed with the ideas that turn shape, steering/ guiding, and balance are all important aspects of skiing. I've challenged the idea that they are the only three things that matter. I'll also challenge the overemphasis of inside ski steering, as it can very easily lead to a diverging parallel, which comes with its own set of problems (incidentally, a diverging parallel such as in your profile picture). 

 

And above there are a lot of words that delve into your theories, however, you don't actually address what I asked. When presented with a text post that you didn't even read all of, from a person you have never met nor seen ski, you said this: "The answer is simple: You are too outside ski dominant and not actively guiding the inside ski."

 

Now really, let's end the dodging and the equivocation. How is it you feel that it is a good idea to make that absolute statement about a skier you have never laid eyes on? Why do you think that was a legitimate or responsible thing to do, as an instructor with 30 years of experience? Because in my 12 years of experience, there are only two types of instructors who would do something like that: raw rookies, or know-it-all instructors who everybody else on staff rolls their eyes at and promptly ignores. 

post #34 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

 

Now really, let's end the dodging and the equivocation. How is it you feel that it is a good idea to make that absolute statement about a skier you have never laid eyes on? Why do you think that was a legitimate or responsible thing to do, as an instructor with 30 years of experience?

 It's like this.... With the exception of those perfect skiers, if there are any such beings, these three issues can be used as a checklist to analyze anyone. [So we don't get askew here, it is important to recognize that when we talk about the inside ski (or other skills) it can be discussed both in terms of rotary and edging motions as the focal point of both is the femur moving inside of the hip socket, and may be discussed in terms of extension and retraction as well... and positioning of CoM- obviously the dynamics will change the tasks depending on the level of the skier, but not the format of analysis].  

 

What is the biggest problem novice instructors and most skiers have?  They lack a systematized starting place in which to analyze skiing. Hell, I 've seen examiners correct the wrong thing. Once you know what to look for it is a matter of cycling thru a simple check list. Turn shape- Check. Inside ski- Check. CoM position and tracking- Check.  One of these will affect one or more of the others.  As the instructor you have to determine if there is anything lacking in any of these issues is the cause of the effect, then work to correct the root cause, then the effect is corrected.  For general advice it is a great starting place. Again, most skiers are deficient in one or more of these areas. Why not start there? 

 

You remember Center Line?  You have edge/pressue on one side of the ladder and rotary motions on the other. You look to see which one is out of balance and teach to it.  It's pretty much the same thing, just with different foci.   A very simple way to analyze and BEGIN to dive in to the ROOT cause of the problem.  Like anything else, it takes experience to learn how to use it fully and is only as good as the eye of the instructor to identify the issue and know what a correct application is supposed to look like. Then it is up to the skill of the instructor to communicate to the student in a manner that the student can grasp, internalize and practice. 

 

I'm done with this. Let's move on. 

post #35 of 44

Grace, ski on the balls of your feet.  All the time.  Actively pull your feet back under your body at the beginning of every turn.  Pull harder, much harder, for steep and tight turns.  Keep your inside foot strongly pulled back all the time through every turn.  It's like turning on power steering.  A good point was made above about holding the turn on the outside ski too long.  Work both feet in unison.  When you said that you have a hard time getting your weight off the inside ski, the first thing that comes to mind is that your feet are too wide apart.  A walking-width stance is just right.  That is where our bodies have learned to balance.  The "wide stance for stability" is only for skiers in sloppy rental boots.

 

I thought the inside foot steering thing died years ago.  One more thing that the PSIA promoted, then dropped but didn't tell anyone.  I never cross my tips, I never steer with the inside foot, I have the inside ski so light that it just skims the snow and sometimes lift the tail to confirm how light it is, and I don't know why anyone would want to steer the inside foot.  Inside foot steering is a good recipe for trouble in bumps and elsewhere.

post #36 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

 It's like this.... With the exception of those perfect skiers, if there are any such beings, these three issues can be used as a checklist to analyze anyone. [So we don't get askew here, it is important to recognize that when we talk about the inside ski (or other skills) it can be discussed both in terms of rotary and edging motions as the focal point of both is the femur moving inside of the hip socket, and may be discussed in terms of extension and retraction as well... and positioning of CoM- obviously the dynamics will change the tasks depending on the level of the skier, but not the format of analysis].  

 

What is the biggest problem novice instructors and most skiers have?  They lack a systematized starting place in which to analyze skiing. Hell, I 've seen examiners correct the wrong thing. Once you know what to look for it is a matter of cycling thru a simple check list. Turn shape- Check. Inside ski- Check. CoM position and tracking- Check.  One of these will affect one or more of the others.  As the instructor you have to determine if there is anything lacking in any of these issues is the cause of the effect, then work to correct the root cause, then the effect is corrected.  For general advice it is a great starting place. Again, most skiers are deficient in one or more of these areas. Why not start there? 

 

You remember Center Line?  You have edge/pressue on one side of the ladder and rotary motions on the other. You look to see which one is out of balance and teach to it.  It's pretty much the same thing, just with different foci.   A very simple way to analyze and BEGIN to dive in to the ROOT cause of the problem.  Like anything else, it takes experience to learn how to use it fully and is only as good as the eye of the instructor to identify the issue and know what a correct application is supposed to look like. Then it is up to the skill of the instructor to communicate to the student in a manner that the student can grasp, internalize and practice. 

 

I'm done with this. Let's move on. 

 

You're done with this, but still haven't explained the question asked. Frankly, I don't care about your approach or your theory. I want to know why you told a novice skier that their problem was something specific, without ever seeing them ski. You outright told her she is outside ski dominant. Said it straight up. Now you won't come to the plate and defend your statement. 

 

So let's try it again. I'm asking a direct question. I don't need to hear about your three points, your general theory on skiing, your misguided understanding of psychological terms, or your zen philosophy. Here it is:

 

Why did you state that this skier's problem was that she is outside ski dominant without ever seeing her ski?

 

You said you appreciate being challenged. Well there it is. 

post #37 of 44

One thing to consider is that if you tip skis onto their left edges their design causes them to turn left, and if you tip skis onto their right edges, their design caused them to turn right.

You can over-ride this feature by forcing the skis to turn where you want them, but if you have a longer heavier pair that is beefier (as evidenced by being more stable at speed), it will be harder to do.

Consider also that a lot of people are not properly aligned in their boots, and some may have an alignment error that forces them to favour their inside edges, producing a perma-wedge or tips crossing.

post #38 of 44

Has any one suggested the ski may not be well tuned and are causing an edge to catch.  A poor tune could cause problems at least for a beginner.

 

Something worth looking at.

post #39 of 44
GraceKelly prob skip pg 2 of this thread. On mobile anyway.
Freeski let it go. Replace dominant with overactive. Does that help?
post #40 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

OMG. Can we touch you?
Sorry you feel the need to be rude.  You might try reinforcing your arguments instead. 
Ummm...HS didn't make an argument, just something more akin to an observation.

Sadly, because of yet another pissing match between instructors (OK, one guy pissing, the others cussing about it), I won't be surprised if @GraceKelly hasn't abandoned the thread entirely. But maybe she'll pick out the respectful posts that actually offer her useful explanations in plain language that will help her understand what's going on and practical advice which she can put into practice now and see that epicski can actually be a helpful place, if you're just willing to shoulder your way through the bullshit.
post #41 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

Grace, ski on the balls of your feet.  All the time.  

 

The problem with this "tip" is that if a skier actually skis on the balls of their feet, they're very likely to rotate into the turn at the start (because the pivot point is so far forward), and wash out the tails at the end of the turn (because there's no edge engagement on the midportion/tails). It's unfortunately a recipe for skiing into the intermediate rut. 

 

To develop a centered and mobile stance, I'd recommend instead learning to find center: doing some hops on snow at the transition, ensuring the tip and tail come off the snow during the hop. Once centered along the length of the ski, start turning the lower joints. 

 

We'd have to see the skier to accurately diagnose the issue. But I can't ever recommend skiing on the balls of one's feet all the time (or really ever). 

post #42 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

Grace, ski on the balls of your feet.  All the time.  Actively pull your feet back under your body at the beginning of every turn.  Pull harder, much harder, for steep and tight turns.  Keep your inside foot strongly pulled back all the time through every turn.  It's like turning on power steering.  A good point was made above about holding the turn on the outside ski too long.  Work both feet in unison.  When you said that you have a hard time getting your weight off the inside ski, the first thing that comes to mind is that your feet are too wide apart.  A walking-width stance is just right.  That is where our bodies have learned to balance.  The "wide stance for stability" is only for skiers in sloppy rental boots.

 

I thought the inside foot steering thing died years ago.  One more thing that the PSIA promoted, then dropped but didn't tell anyone.  I never cross my tips, I never steer with the inside foot, I have the inside ski so light that it just skims the snow and sometimes lift the tail to confirm how light it is, and I don't know why anyone would want to steer the inside foot.  Inside foot steering is a good recipe for trouble in bumps and elsewhere.

 

We've got thread drift!  But this current topic is worth talking about anyway.  So....

I disagree with the parts above in blue.  I agree with the rest.

 

Do not ski on the balls of your feet.  Skiing on the balls of your feet through the whole turn lightens the tails, especially if your foot is pressing upwards on the ceiling of your boot.  This is what many believe "ball of foot pressure" means.  If you do this, it will lighten the tails of your skis and loosen their grip through the entire turn.  If you ski on steepish hard groomed snow, your skis will be skidding out at the end of each turn.  The entire back side of each ski will be lightened and will fan out downhill.  Many people ski this way, but there is a much better way to deal with the end of your turns.  I used to ski on the balls of my feet because I fell hook-line-and-sinker for the command to ski with ball-of-foot-pressure, aka "forward."  I thought if a little forward was good, then farther forward was even better (aka more ball-of-foot-pressure).  I was stuck wondering why my tails washed out at the end of my turns, since I was doing what I thought you were supposed to do.  

 

If you are somewhat new to skiing and reading this thread, listen to the folks who say to stay centered.  Position yourself over your skis such that you can feel the balls of your feet as well as your heels pressing down equally, or if you prefer, feel the soles of your boots pressing up under balls and heels equally.  Maintaining this centered stance will involve moving yourself around over your feet throughout your turns, because that underfoot pressures move around during the turns.  If you stand rigidly on the skis, your underfoot pressure will move around out of your control.  Teach yourself to feel those underfoot pressures and adjust accordingly, especially by bending your ankles inside those boots.  *Often the admonition to ski on the balls of your feet is meant to get you out of the back seat.  Yes, do get out of the back seat.  Do not allow your body to hover over the tails of your skis.  Stay centered instead.

 

Do steer with your inside ski.  Steering the inside ski does not mean you keep half your "weight" on the inside ski; your inside ski needs to be lightened, just as SoftSnowGuy says. "Steering" that inside ski only means you mentally focus on tipping and turning it.  Do this as you start a turn, then focus on continuing to tip and turn that inside ski through the entire turn. This inside ski business is a mental focus; the outside ski will follow along without you mentally doing anything with it. This inside ski focus is referred to by several phrases amongst ski instructors.  Two of them are "guide ski, ride ski" (inside ski is the guide ski, outside ski is the ride ski; they are also known as brains and brawn); "left, tip left, to go left" which means focus on your left foot, tip it left (or turn it left), and you'll go left.  

 

So do inside ski steering ("steering" means tipping and turning).  You can also pull that inside ski back, as SoftSnowGuy suggests, but when you do this be sure you don't also pull the hip above it back.  If you pull the hip above it back, your turns will go south with upper body rotation.  Whether you try the pull-back or not, do adjust your body over your skis in order to lighten that inside ski.  This is very important.  Lightening it will allow your outside ski to carry your weight through the turn, as it should (on hard snow groomers).  


Edited by LiquidFeet - 1/10/15 at 6:39pm
post #43 of 44

Lf, SFG doesn't believe in steering outside ski either, so the inside is sort of a moot point. Whatever works. He makes it to the bottom just fine.

I agree with balls of feet - not.  As for trouble in bumps? Well I guess there's trouble in River City and it's silly.

post #44 of 44
Thread Starter 
It's been a minute since I've been on the forums but I did want to thank everyone who wrote in. The advice was very helpful!! I ended up taking a lesson and for the most part it was bad technique when I first got out there a month ago. I also realized that I learned on 130's (not 143's) which explains why I felt like the 148's were longer than I was used to. I am happy with my new skis though! They're a bit heavier and more stiff, which took about two, three days to acclimate to. But after taking a lesson and applying the tips/feedback I learned from this thread, I'm skiing fairly well. So again, thank you everyone!!

Grace
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