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Up-and-over": An advanced exercise for releasing edges

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 

Hi guys, 

 

One of the issues I notice among level 3 candidates is problems with a clean transition. I've been thinking about a way to practice releasing into a balanced position over the new outside ski. I wonder if the up-and-over turn could help skiers clean up their transitions. Here's how I think of the movements: 

 

  1. Through the end of the turn before transition, balance over the outside ski. The inside ski is in the air. 
  2. As you near the transition, place your inside ski on the snow. Lift your outside ski. 
  3. Through the transition, roll the ski onto its new edge. Ride through the arc on the edge until you approach the end of the turn. 

 

What this accomplishes: 

Early balance over the new outside ski

Clean release into the new arc

Test of balance in all planes

 

Why it's good: 

Skier gets obvious feedback as to whether they're releasing effectively

Skier gets immediate feedback on balance in all planes based on free ski position and success at drill

Skier gets feedback on stance-related issues (e.g. rocketing too fast, or unable to turn)

 

Why it might be considered "not good": 

In good skiing, your inside ski is engaged and helping to steer. (Remember: this is an exercise.) 

Might be too difficult for weak level 3 candidates. (In this case, simplify to one foot carved turns with inside ski tip touching snow.)

 

Potential ways to mess up this exercise: 

Skier just balances from outside ski to outside ski 

Skier does the exercise backwards, and links inside ski turns

 

 

Thoughts? 

post #2 of 31

Yes, this is good, there are a variety of names of this, but what it boils down to is transferring weight completely from the downhill ski to the uphill ski, while still riding on the uphill LTE edge of the uphill ski as you complete the old turn.  Then with that balance established on the uphill LTE, finally move into the turn rolling it over onto the BTE.  Why do they call it up and over?

post #3 of 31

I have mentioned this drill at least  times in the last year!

 

BTS describes it perfectly!  

post #4 of 31

Here's my take on it (3rd clip).

I think being subtle is good. One thing to look for in all of these is the ability to gently place the lifted ski back on the snow. Not to drop or stomp it down or to chop it in sideways.

post #5 of 31

Epic, that seems to be the inverse of the first video.  

post #6 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

Epic, that seems to be the inverse of the first video.  


oh, it is, hers is shot from above, mine from below. No really, like I said, 3rd clip in the video.

post #7 of 31

oh.... 3rd clip.  Roger that!

post #8 of 31
Most unclean transitions result from failure to involve the new inside ski. I don't see how this would address that issue.
post #9 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 


oh, it is, hers is shot from above, mine from below. No really, like I said, 3rd clip in the video.

post #10 of 31

Kneale, perhaps you can elaborate exactly how involvement of the inside ski will help create cleaner entries.  i don't disagree with that.  What the above drill does is actually encourage the skier to do just exactly that, though its still possible to do them with too much emphasis on the outside foot still.

 

When the skier puts their weight on the uphill LTE ski while its still on the LTE, its really awkward and hard to then pivot that ski or stem it or any such thing. It is possible to tip it still.

 

Now that being said, truly mastering this drill will involve a long linger time on the LTE.  if a skier tends to go to the LTE and immediately rolls over to the BTE, then chances are high they are desperately trying to roll the outside foot over to the BTE in order to get a turn happening or relying on out of balance movements of the CoM to topple that way without really activating the inside foot.  

 

Conversely, do the above drill with a long linger time on the LTE and emphasis on inside foot action and you'll have something.  Lingering on the LTE at least excludes stuff that normally would be unweighting, pivoting, stemming, etc.  It also encourages balance on the outside ski earlier, and with a long linger time and instructions about the inside foot, forces a skier to use the inside foot to initiate movement into the turn which subsequentally rolls the outside ski over to the BTE

post #11 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Here's my take on it (3rd clip).

I enjoyed the trot-trot-trotting horse! duck.gif

But yes, the third clip is what I'm intending. It's the opposite foot of a white pass turn.

Why is Shiffrin stacked so strangely in GoodSki's posting? That's not how she skis in races, nor is it what she looks like in the video I posted earlier... maybe it's from earlier in her skiing career?
post #12 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Most unclean transitions result from failure to involve the new inside ski. I don't see how this would address that issue.

 

It teaches a release, a deliberate transfer, and engaging the new edge with an active inside leg. Unclean transitions lack a deliberate transfer and engage and do not involve the new inside leg in that process properly.

post #13 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

Yes, this is good, there are a variety of names of this, but what it boils down to is transferring weight completely from the downhill ski to the uphill ski, while still riding on the uphill LTE edge of the uphill ski as you complete the old turn.  Then with that balance established on the uphill LTE, finally move into the turn rolling it over onto the BTE.  Why do they call it up and over?

Like this:

 

post #14 of 31

I'm not sure I really like the up move she is doing there and there must be a point to it, she was trying to convey in her talking points, but in mind that up move convolutes the point of lingering on the LTE per this discussion, and also if done wrong could be used to thrust the CoM across instead of truly lingering on the LTE and activating the inside foot with balance on the outside ski at all times.  Patience is a huge factor to doing those drills properly.  Once a sense of balance is developed, the time spent on LTE doesn't have to be that long.

post #15 of 31

I see what you are seeing but I think the two kids are moving a lot more forward than up.  I think a lot of people get confused with LTE drills like this and move their COM too much along the uphill ski and not enough in the direction of the new turn resulting in the appearance of the "dreaded" up move.  Also on some of these turns in the video I think they could be more patient.

post #16 of 31
Notice how she's still trying to maintain FTP throughout GoodSki? wink.gif

zenny
post #17 of 31
Thread Starter 
Ftp?
post #18 of 31

?? Forward Tip Pressure ???

post #19 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Notice how she's still trying to maintain FTP throughout GoodSki? wink.gif

zenny

Zenny,

in addition, with the inside ski initially in the air,  focus can be paid to the hips/pelvis moving to the inside of the turn in a way where the skier can develop optimum balance against the outside ski. 

post #20 of 31
FTP, flex/tip/pullback of the new inside (a term I use with GoodSki at our local hill) Despite the stated focus on the outside ski here in this video, we can see how the inside is still quietly guiding. In fact, I think part of why she has to end a few turns abruptly is due to an instant of inattention to the inside/outside relationship...related to the noted "lack of patience" above, IMO smile.gif

zenny
post #21 of 31
I think in her commentary she said something about the up move being about staying forward, yup

I would agree with zzenny about inside attention, I would prefer to see that focus on the inside foot and knee rather then moving the hips inside. That is why I don't particularly like the up move which could easily be high jacked into moving the hips into the turn without activating the inside foot
post #22 of 31

Metaphor's description of the "up and over" drill in the first post:

 

 

Quote:
  • Through the end of the turn before transition, balance over the outside ski. The inside ski is in the air. 
  • As you near the transition, place your inside ski on the snow. Lift your outside ski. 
  • Through the transition, roll the ski onto its new edge. Ride through the arc on the edge until you approach the end of the turn. 

 

Would appear to be the polar opposite of the White Pass Turn.  i.e., in a White Pass Turn, you stay on your old outside / new inside ski through transition and all the way to the fall-line.  White Pass turns have various benefits, but one of them was (I thought...) that it's very hard to "cheat" -- you've got to really commit to the inside of the new turn or there's just no way it's coming around (well, you could muscle it around, but you'd know that it wasn't "clean").

 

What's the benefit of the "up and over" vs. "White Pass turns"?

post #23 of 31
White pass eliminates pivoting and pushing off.
post #24 of 31

UP and over (I don't like the name) gets you on your new outside ski very early in the turn. the key is getting on the LTE of uphill and then rolling on to the BTE before the fall line on that ski only,

 

IMHO, this drill is not anything about the new inside ski. It is all about turnng early and rolling on the old inside /new outside ski. 

 

I also don't consider about releasing your edge, on the contrary it is about engaging your new outside BTE very early.

 

We do with traverses between and more linger on the LTE of the uphill ski more as BTS said

post #25 of 31

I've heard this called the reverse bicycle drill, I like this demo 

post #26 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

I think in her commentary she said something about the up move being about staying forward, yup

I would agree with zzenny about inside attention, I would prefer to see that focus on the inside foot and knee rather then moving the hips inside. That is why I don't particularly like the up move which could easily be high jacked into moving the hips into the turn without activating the inside foot

Don't get me wrong, I am a big believer that the inside ski is the Rodney Dangerfield of skiing (No Respect!)  but in the medium radius turns that you see people doing for this drill, edge angle is ultimately achieved by COM movement to the inside of the turn. And upper/lower separation angle and directional movement of the hips (in relationship to the ski) is key. Focusing on the inside foot and knee in no way guarantees that the COM moves correctly. A good exercise to ensure that it does is the "Tip Over Tip" Javelin turn. Once you get that down,  you can then work on the proper participation of the inside ski as a valuable co-conspirator of the turn. And one drill for that is the white pass turn. 

post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post
 

I've heard this called the reverse bicycle drill, I like this demo 


He just got 3rd in a World Cup today I think. Far be it from me to criticize, but I guess it's tradition here. He seems to me to be pretty rotaty especially up top and kinda falls onto the inside ski. Also lifts the ski tip high (maybe because of tons of gas pedal). Just saying, I think he could do better and who knows, maybehe did on teh next run certainly he'd be trying to improve when he trains and taht's the whole point of doing drillsa

post #28 of 31
Racers do not always make the best demo skiers. Similarly demo skiers don't always make the best racers.
post #29 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 


He just got 3rd in a World Cup today I think. Far be it from me to criticize, but I guess it's tradition here. He seems to me to be pretty rotaty especially up top and kinda falls onto the inside ski. Also lifts the ski tip high (maybe because of tons of gas pedal). Just saying, I think he could do better and who knows, maybehe did on teh next run certainly he'd be trying to improve when he trains and taht's the whole point of doing drillsa

He is trying to pick it up:

 

post #30 of 31

 

  Interesting to note here that his new inside appears to rotate internally, dorsiflex, and tip. To my mind, a sign of inside ski management during this drill...

 

    zenny

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