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removing sidewall in tip and tail

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

This is always a pain. My planner always jumps, no matter how little I'm trying to remove, causing nasty marks on the sidewall and whatever that piece of metal above the side edge is. Any tips to make it smooth?

post #2 of 21

Sounds like you need to do some ski shaping aka topsheet sanding, and some sidewall sanding.  Once you start getting speed bumps from your sidewall planer, you should stop planing and remove the bumps.  If you keep planing these bumps, they will only get worse.

 

Next grab a panzar or "body file" and put it in a guide shimmed to 7-8 degrees or so, and start planing the topsheet at the tip and tail.  You can also do this freehand.  Once you get the the topsheet pulled back, take the body file and carefully freehand smooth the bumps a bit.  Next use some 220 sandpaper and wet sand until smooth.

 

This will take a bit of time to do it by hand, I prefer to use belt sanding machines for this task, takes me about 2-3 min to do a pair.

 

Hard to tell in this before and after pic, if you zoom in at the tips you might see the the 0 degree angle in the first ski, and the 7 degree in the second.

post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 

Looks like I have another tool to purchase... I assume all panzar files have curved teeth and are very coarse? Almost looks like 4 teeth per centimeter. Is it possible to use a bastard file or would that take too long?

 

Since the tail and tip go up, I assume the direction you hold the file varies? Do I go around the entire curvature of the tail and tip?

 

With sanding, why do it wet? Only with water?


Edited by nemesis256 - 1/5/15 at 1:10pm
post #4 of 21

I don't seem to have a problem removing sidewall. are you trying to remove more then you need to ?

 

I don't bother removing it past where the tip/tail is its widest point.

post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post

Looks like I have another tool to purchase... I assume all panzar files have curved teeth and are very coarse? Almost looks like 4 teeth per centimeter. Is it possible to use a bastard file or would that take too long?

Since the tail and tip go up, I assume the direction you hold the file varies? Do I go around the entire curvature of the tail and tip?

With sanding, why do it wet? Only with water?
You really do want a panzar file; a bastard file will clog up and it'll be much slower going. Here's a 4" panzar for $8 (plus shipping unless you find a reason to spend at least $30).

I've dry-sanded speed bumps on phenolic sidewalls with no problem; I roll the sandpaper around a pencil to make sure I get it all. Wet sanding might just get a smoother finish, but I wouldn't know 'bout that.

Go to Goodwill, pick up a few pair of junk skis, and go to town on them to get a feel for how much pressure to use. Also, I find it easier to control the pressure to keep it even if the ski base is facing me while I'm planing. I also get better control if I stand right in front of the part of the ski I'm working on and hold the planer with both hands.
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

I don't seem to have a problem removing sidewall. are you trying to remove more then you need to ?

 

I don't bother removing it past where the tip/tail is its widest point.

It's possible, but I'm not sure.  I've taken pictures to show what I'm dealing with. Turns out the worst tip and tail are on the same edge, that's what these two pictures are. What's also weird is that there's a 3 inch section on the other ski were the sidewall is white/translucent instead of red.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


You really do want a panzar file; a bastard file will clog up and it'll be much slower going. Here's a 4" panzar for $8 (plus shipping unless you find a reason to spend at least $30).

 

 

I don't see a link…

 

How do you work with the file if it's only 4 inches long?

post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

You really do want a panzar file; a bastard file will clog up and it'll be much slower going. Here's a 4" panzar for $8 (plus shipping unless you find a reason to spend at least $30).


I don't see a link…

How do you work with the file if it's only 4 inches long?
Sorry, here's the link: http://racewax.com/p-634-toko-base-file-radial-100-mm-panzer.aspx. Place the file at a slight angle to the guide so that it extends far enough to reach the sidewall, which should only be 1/2-2/3 inch or so, right?
post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


Sorry, here's the link: http://racewax.com/p-634-toko-base-file-radial-100-mm-panzer.aspx. Place the file at a slight angle to the guide so that it extends far enough to reach the sidewall, which should only be 1/2-2/3 inch or so, right?

When you say guide, do you mean the same one I use for diamond stones? If so, nothing will be removed unless it's really sticking out. I thought I would want a steeper angle so it actually does something.


Edited by nemesis256 - 1/5/15 at 6:04pm
post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

Sorry, here's the link: http://racewax.com/p-634-toko-base-file-radial-100-mm-panzer.aspx. Place the file at a slight angle to the guide so that it extends far enough to reach the sidewall, which should only be 1/2-2/3 inch or so, right?
When you save guide, do you mean the same one I use for diamond stones? If so, nothing will be removed unless it's really sticking out. I thought I would want a steeper angle so it actually does something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post

Sounds like you need to do some ski shaping aka topsheet sanding, and some sidewall sanding.  Once you start getting speed bumps from your sidewall planer, you should stop planing and remove the bumps.  If you keep planing these bumps, they will only get worse.

Next grab a panzar or "body file" and put it in a guide shimmed to 7-8 degrees or so, and start planing the topsheet at the tip and tail.  You can also do this freehand.  Once you get the the topsheet pulled back, take the body file and carefully freehand smooth the bumps a bit.  

I assumed you'd shim your regular file guide, but obviously you could spend a few dollars more for a full-sized panzar file.
post #10 of 21

how do I find a shim for my 4 degree side edge guide? I have no tools other than my skiing tools, so can't really make one...

post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

how do I find a shim for my 4 degree side edge guide? I have no tools other than my skiing tools, so can't really make one...
add some strips of tape at the bottom of the sliding side,mthat should increase the angle at the top. I'd say two- three layers of electrical tape should be another 4 degrees forma total of 8.

You use a 4 eek.gif how do you like it?
post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


add some strips of tape at the bottom of the sliding side,mthat should increase the angle at the top. I'd say two- three layers of electrical tape should be another 4 degrees forma total of 8.

You use a 4 eek.gif how do you like it?

 

Thanks, I can manage electrical tape! 

 

4 is so much fun. They're glued onto ice as long as I'm balancing OK. My friends who've skied them love the angle.

post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

4 is so much fun. They're glued onto ice as long as I'm balancing OK. My friends who've skied them love the angle.
hmm I bought a .5/4 two years ago and could not ski it properly until I detuned it to 1/3 - the inside ski kept hooking up. Maybe I should try again... i got used to making up for the lack of grip by getting lower on ice and a bigger patience at the top, or at least I think I do.... I guess...

Cheers
post #14 of 21

Trying again is a great idea. If I can ski it, you can knock it out of the park!

post #15 of 21
I guess you don't have one of these ?
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=sidewall+planer+toko&gbv=2&oq=sidewall+planer&gs_l=heirloom-hp.1.1.0j0i22i30l9.2262.6396.0.8783.15.15.0.0.0.0.265.2026.0j7j4.11.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..4.11.2026.UgGMNGJTWjQ

I have the old 1999 Toko with the square cutter, it works great. I also have cut a panzar into 1" pieces and use it by hand to claen up the sidewall on the very ends on some skis.

That's above the metal edge, it really doesn't matter.

Another tip, I will clamp a 1" panzar in front of the 100 grit moonflex on the edge guide every now and then when I need to reset the 1/3. I normally just use the moonflex up/down the edge, 4 times after each ski day.
post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post

I guess you don't have one of these ?
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=sidewall+planer+toko&gbv=2&oq=sidewall+planer&gs_l=heirloom-hp.1.1.0j0i22i30l9.2262.6396.0.8783.15.15.0.0.0.0.265.2026.0j7j4.11.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..4.11.2026.UgGMNGJTWjQ

I have the old 1999 Toko with the square cutter, it works great. I also have cut a panzar into 1" pieces and use it by hand to claen up the sidewall on the very ends on some skis.

That's above the metal edge, it really doesn't matter.

Another tip, I will clamp a 1" panzar in front of the 100 grit moonflex on the edge guide every now and then when I need to reset the 1/3. I normally just use the moonflex up/down the edge, 4 times after each ski day.

 

I have one of these, circle blade.

 

post #17 of 21

I took one of these that I've had for years (way too many, so it has cost me anything new) and reset the glide surface to 7 or 8 degrees on the mill,

 

http://www.mec.ca/product/5002-247/kuu-ice-buster-90-side-edge-sharpener/

 

to this a dedicated sidewall tool

 

Makes for fast work of the side wall,  did 6 skis last week. 


Edited by oldschoolskier - 1/6/15 at 6:50am
post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


hmm I bought a .5/4 two years ago and could not ski it properly until I detuned it to 1/3 - the inside ski kept hooking up. Maybe I should try again... i got used to making up for the lack of grip by getting lower on ice and a bigger patience at the top, or at least I think I do.... I guess...

Cheers


It's the 0.5 that's difficult to get used to (the 4 is easier).  If you don't have the feel to ski flat naturally, you tend to catch edges.  0.5 leaves very little margin for the on edge or off edge.  You have to be very balanced or it gets difficult.

 

I ski with 0.5/4 on my skis (GS and SL) and love it.

 

Just remember the skis are looking for you to make a mistake when set like this to teach you humility :eek . 

 

BTW I've thought of doing a variable tune 0.5 tip and tail 0.0 under boot, but kind of worried about eating serious humble pie on my SL's.

post #19 of 21

You can use a bastard file if you want, but a panzar will be more effective.  I will sometimes use a bastard on the topsheet after the panzar to smooth it out.

 

Use anything to shim your current guide, old cut up debit cards / gift cards and some tape.  I have a beast 7 degree, and also a svst 3 degree with a 3 degree svst metal shim.  The guides will give you consitency, but you can still freehand it without too much worry.

 

You can dry sand as well, even going to a 150 grit or 120.  By wet sanding, the paper has less tendency to clog up, also reduces heat, and does polish nicely.  Ive literally burnt my thumb before from the friction when dry sanding sidewalls.

 

There are many types of sidewall materials out there, race skis generally have very hard materials, and kids skis will be very soft.  Usually the soft versions are more prone to jumping when planing.

 

I'm pretty sure that white layer between your sidewall and the edge is epoxy resin.  This is common in cap and sidewall skis, and I would call it a very minor production flaw - it's nothing to worry about.

 

You might also want to rotate the knife on your swix planer.  You only have to turn it slightly to acquire a fresh cutting surface.

 

cheers,

post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post


It's the 0.5 that's difficult to get used to (the 4 is easier).  If you don't have the feel to ski flat naturally, you tend to catch edges.  0.5 leaves very little margin for the on edge or off edge.  You have to be very balanced or it gets difficult.

I ski with 0.5/4 on my skis (GS and SL) and love it.

Just remember the skis are looking for you to make a mistake when set like this to teach you humility eek.gif  . 

BTW I've thought of doing a variable tune 0.5 tip and tail 0.0 under boot, but kind of worried about eating serious humble pie on my SL's.
I'll be in c-wood for a few days at the pod cup, I'll grind a few pairs of slaloms to .7 at Army's to see how that feels like and I'll move from there. Cheers
post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

I don't seem to have a problem removing sidewall. are you trying to remove more then you need to ?

 

I don't bother removing it past where the tip/tail is its widest point.

It's possible, but I'm not sure.  I've taken pictures to show what I'm dealing with. Turns out the worst tip and tail are on the same edge, that's what these two pictures are. What's also weird is that there's a 3 inch section on the other ski were the sidewall is white/translucent instead of red.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


You really do want a panzar file; a bastard file will clog up and it'll be much slower going. Here's a 4" panzar for $8 (plus shipping unless you find a reason to spend at least $30).

 

 

I don't see a link…

 

How do you work with the file if it's only 4 inches long?


Sometimes this is because of too much pressure and doing a nose press with the pansar file.  Use less pressure and to a tail press instead.  Or keep the file centered over the curve.  You did a good job because I can see you cut a bit off the top of the side edge.  It's really not a big deal.  Mostly cosmetic.  Don't worry too much about it.  Make sure you replace the pansar section often.  They can dull easy.  Anyway, more passes, less pressure and avoid the nose press.  Better to clear the edge and have a few jumps than not clearing at all.

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