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First time using a file, running into problems - Page 2

post #31 of 121
Thread Starter 
this is just weird. I've now switched edges, and I'm no longer getting the nice little pile of filings inside my guide. Instead, they just come out as they please while filing. Doesn't matter which side of the file I use either.
post #32 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post

this is just weird. I've now switched edges, and I'm no longer getting the nice little pile of filings inside my guide. Instead, they just come out as they please while filing. Doesn't matter which side of the file I use either.

I like to file right to left with bases facing me. This causes the filings to be ejected away from the base and not get trapped in the guide or on the base (as much). It also means that I end up filling tip to tail on one side and tail to tip on the other.
post #33 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post


I like to file right to left with bases facing me. This causes the filings to be ejected away from the base and not get trapped in the guide or on the base (as much). It also means that I end up filling tip to tail on one side and tail to tip on the other.

 

I'd read that you must always work with bases facing away from you, and I had indifferent results.  Then, in a youtube video, I saw a guy working with bases facing him, and it made much more sense -- consistent pressure and control.  Now my edges are sharp (despite using alcohol/water as lubricant).  Next: chalk.

post #34 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

I'm with markojp. Coarser file. When you really need to take off metal, the 2nd cut doesn't cut it. If you don't need to take off that much, a coarse diamond stone is all you need.

Not disagreeing with A man or others, but trying to cut to what looks like the biggest issue.

His ski had already been tuned , 

 

I quote:  I just got a 2nd cut swix file, and it's not removing an even amount of metal. At the end of last season, I got my skis tuned by a shop, they claim they set the angle to 2°. Since then I've been using my 92° guide, but now I'm not convinced it's set correctly because only the top half of the edge is being removed (using the permanent marker test). After doing about five passes with the file,

 

Even if his ski was a 1 degree and he was increasing to 2 degrees..........you just don't need to remove that much metal.   If you're going tofrom 0 to a 3 in one fell swoop, yea, But his ski was already suppuosed to be at 2 and even if it wasn't a 2 it almost certainly is not at a side edge of -0-.

 

I have Swix 2nd cut files and if used in a proper manner they would change a 1 to a 2 no problemo without taking an hour of filing!   Sorry me no buying your theory!;)

post #35 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post


I like to file right to left with bases facing me. This causes the filings to be ejected away from the base and not get trapped in the guide or on the base (as much). It also means that I end up filling tip to tail on one side and tail to tip on the other.

 the one position where the filings were ending up in the guide was with base away from me, and filing from right to left. This way I was using my left hand, and I am left handed, so maybe this way gave me more control? Really don't know. It still doesn't explain why this was happening on only one side of the file.

post #36 of 121

Did I post this already?  This long thread.

post #37 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 

 the one position where the filings were ending up in the guide was with base away from me, and filing from right to left. This way I was using my left hand, and I am left handed, so maybe this way gave me more control? Really don't know. It still doesn't explain why this was happening on only one side of the file.

This would be correct for a lefty! Thumbs Up

 

I am right handed file left to right (ski on my right said facing the tip) bases away from me. Always pull the file towards you


Edited by Atomicman - 1/7/15 at 8:57am
post #38 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post

New observation. One side of the file does a better job than the other. On the backside, I get a nice little pile of filings under my guide, and when using the front side, I don't get much out of it. That may explain why the first ski took so long, and the second "only" took 1 1/2 hours.  I changed which side I was using with the second ski. I'm pretty sure I'm using the correct side, because when I don't, it makes a nasty noise.

I've been re-filing the first ski because I left it incomplete. Is it bad to make more passes in one spot than the others? The tail area of the edge I'm currently working on requires a lot of passes.

This is the file I got:
http://www.artechski.com/swix-mini-race-tech-file-2nd-cut-10-cm-16-tpcm/

Just a funny observation that one side is easier than the other....do you rotate the file in the holder as you switch sides?

Files cut in one direction only, the other direction just wears them out prematurely. Lift file as you rest for each stroke as it allows for the teeth to clear and prevents wear on the file.
post #39 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

Did I post this already?  This long thread.

 

I've been waiting for you to post that.;)

 

I watched this last season, but it's been useful to see it again. Make me feel better about a few things, like having to pass more times over the tail.

post #40 of 121

Yes, it can seem difficult sometimes.  Sidewall needs to be planed back.  Hardened edges from a machine (all factory tunes) or a ski with much edge damage will be hard to file.  In that case much time with a coarse diamond stone will be needed to remove the hard layer so the file will cut.  Then files can get dull.  Sometimes just moving the file a bit in the guide to a new portion will do the trick.

 

Anyway, don't give up.  If you get tired just come back to them later. 

post #41 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post

New observation. One side of the file does a better job than the other. On the backside, I get a nice little pile of filings under my guide, and when using the front side, I don't get much out of it. That may explain why the first ski took so long, and the second "only" took 1 1/2 hours.  I changed which side I was using with the second ski. I'm pretty sure I'm using the correct side, because when I don't, it makes a nasty noise.

I've been re-filing the first ski because I left it incomplete. Is it bad to make more passes in one spot than the others? The tail area of the edge I'm currently working on requires a lot of passes.

This is the file I got:
http://www.artechski.com/swix-mini-race-tech-file-2nd-cut-10-cm-16-tpcm/
Which way is the file facing? The Swix logo should point toward the back of the tool; if the file had a tang, that would also point to the back of the tool. Here's how I'd position mine, assuming the ski tip is to the right and the base is facing away from me. I'd pull the file toward the left to cut the edge.



You can also feel the difference between the cutting and the non-cutting direction by running your finger back and forth along the file; you'll feel resistance/abrasion when your skin is pushing against the cutting edges of the file teeth, and going the other way you'll be sliding along the non-cutting side of the teeth. Obviously, the cutting edges of the file teeth are what you want to use when filing the steel.

Another point: lift the tool a little on the backstroke. As someone just mentioned, putting pressure on the file on the backstroke will make it dull prematurely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post

New observation. One side of the file does a better job than the other. On the backside, I get a nice little pile of filings under my guide, and when using the front side, I don't get much out of it. That may explain why the first ski took so long, and the second "only" took 1 1/2 hours.  I changed which side I was using with the second ski. I'm pretty sure I'm using the correct side, because when I don't, it makes a nasty noise.
Is the "nasty noise" the noise of the file cutting the steel? You should feel real resistance as you pull the file in the correct direction, and will also feel the file cutting. As you reach your desired angle, the file becomes quieter and slides against the edge. That's how you know it's time to move on to the next section of the edge.
Quote:
I've been re-filing the first ski because I left it incomplete. Is it bad to make more passes in one spot than the others? The tail area of the edge I'm currently working on requires a lot of passes.
You should file until the noise changes because the teeth aren't cutting aggressively, or your magic marker mark is removed. If the bevel is uneven, that'll take longer in some areas than in others.[/quote]
post #42 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


Which way is the file facing? The Swix logo should point toward the back of the tool; if the file had a tang, that would also point to the back of the tool. Here's how I'd position mine, assuming the ski tip is to the right and the base is facing away from me. I'd pull the file toward the left to cut the edge.

That is the position I found worked best, except I had the file straight in the tool, and not at an angle. But the tool should cut the same on either side (Swix logo visible or not), correct?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


You can also feel the difference between the cutting and the non-cutting direction by running your finger back and forth along the file; you'll feel resistance/abrasion when your skin is pushing against the cutting edges of the file teeth, and going the other way you'll be sliding along the non-cutting side of the teeth. Obviously, the cutting edges of the file teeth are what you want to use when filing the steel.

I actually can't feel the difference very well with my fingers. I supposed to file its too fine.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


Is the "nasty noise" the noise of the file cutting the steel? You should feel real resistance as you pull the file in the correct direction, and will also feel the file cutting. As you reach your desired angle, the file becomes quieter and slides against the edge. That's how you know it's time to move on to the next section of the edge.

 

The nasty noise while going the wrong way is more like the sound of grinding steel, not cutting it. Definitely did not sound right at all. I did notice that towards the end the file was sliding better.

post #43 of 121
Looks like litterbug is left handed.
If you get the noise, assuming the file is the right way, go back over the noisy area with the diamond stone to get through a hard spot.

I can't picture filing a side edge with the base facing me. Seems awkward. Forget who posted that.
Bases away means you lean over the edge , it's basically vertically under your armpit, and you are able to pull directly towards you. Any non success with this geometry is due to other causes not bases away. That's creating voodo technique. If you like it fine, but it works quite well bases away. As shown by 99% of tuners.
post #44 of 121

If Nemesis256's file is as long as the one shown in litterbug's picture, AND he has mounted the file in a straight line in the tool (as he indicated), is it not possible that the front and back of the file are engaging with the edges?  If that is the case, that would greatly limit the contact of the middle of the file with the edges (where we normally would be engaging the file with the ski edge to do our work).  The cutting would be inconsistent because the sidecut of the ski is contacting the ends of the file and  preventing the desired contact in the middle. The sidecut also varies along the length of the ski, which would account for the inconsistency. 

post #45 of 121
^^ Yep. Litterbug take note. The file could span the side cut. So the middle wouldn't get much removal.
post #46 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Looks like litterbug is left handed.
If you get the noise, assuming the file is the right way, go back over the noisy area with the diamond stone to get through a hard spot.

I can't picture filing a side edge with the base facing me. Seems awkward. Forget who posted that.
Bases away means you lean over the edge , it's basically vertically under your armpit, and you are able to pull directly towards you. Any non success with this geometry is due to other causes not bases away. That's creating voodo technique. If you like it fine, but it works quite well bases away. As shown by 99% of tuners.

 

I posted it.  I've tried both ways, and this way worked better for me.  Your Mileage, as they say, Manifestly Varies.

post #47 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfdog View Post
 

If Nemesis256's file is as long as the one shown in litterbug's picture, AND he has mounted the file in a straight line in the tool (as he indicated), is it not possible that the front and back of the file are engaging with the edges?

Mine isn't that long, it's 4 inches. However that is still a question of whether or not it's too long.

post #48 of 121

If you are right handed 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Looks like litterbug is left handed.
If you get the noise, assuming the file is the right way, go back over the noisy area with the diamond stone to get through a hard spot.

I can't picture filing a side edge with the base facing me. Seems awkward. Forget who posted that. You got that right!!!
Bases away means you lean over the edge , it's basically vertically under your armpit, and you are able to pull directly towards you. Any non success with this geometry is due to other causes not bases away. That's creating voodo technique. If you like it fine, but it works quite well bases away. As shown by 99% of tuners. Absolutely spot on! Hard Voodoo!
post #49 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 

Mine isn't that long, it's 4 inches. However that is still a question of whether or not it's too long.

No I use 4 inchers all the time! 100mm! They work fine!

 

Holmenkol 100mm 13 & 15 TPM have an arrow engraved in file the showing the correct pull direction of the file!  And the Label or tang or end of the file can go at the front or the back depending on whihc side of the file you are using. It is the direction of the teeth that matters!

post #50 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 

 

I posted it.  I've tried both ways, and this way worked better for me.  Your Mileage, as they say, Manifestly Varies.

Something is wrong here! Makes NO SENSE at all! 

post #51 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Something is wrong here! Makes NO SENSE at all! 


I'm sorry?  "Filing with the base edge facing you" is what I was referring to.  I assume you couldn't tell; I should have cut more from Tog's post.

post #52 of 121
I don't get the setup either lakespapa. Are you saying the base of the ski faces you? If so, do you file two handed?
Or are you using that FK vise type which lays the ski at a 45 deg angle?
post #53 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 

That is the position I found worked best, except I had the file straight in the tool, and not at an angle. But the tool should cut the same on either side (Swix logo visible or not), correct?

 

I actually can't feel the difference very well with my fingers. I supposed to file its too fine.

 

 

The nasty noise while going the wrong way is more like the sound of grinding steel, not cutting it. Definitely did not sound right at all. I did notice that towards the end the file was sliding better.

 

On re-reading this and thinking things over, it might be best to suggest course diamond stone as they do not have a direction so to speak.

 

Atomicman...your thoughts?

post #54 of 121
Quote:
I actually can't feel the difference very well with my fingers. I supposed to file its too fine.

Use finger nail. If chewed off, use fine cardbord or plastic scrap.
I've had trouble with finger also on fine files.

You can also use an optical device like a mag glass or camera or binoculars held in reverse and close to surface. (works well to read fine print! Or look at fingerprints. Trust me)
After that use sharpie to indicate direction.
post #55 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I don't get the setup either lakespapa. Are you saying the base of the ski faces you? If so, do you file two handed?

 

Yes -- this is from Alpine Base & Edge; edge filing starts around 4:00.  I don't use a freehand shop stone for burrs, as this guy does, but I like the way he files -- as I said, it works better for me than the bases-facing-away, one-handed method.

 

post #56 of 121
Ok I get it. I knew I should have gone with 97%.
Going to try it next wkend. I think i might have done it years ago.
post #57 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Ok I get it. I knew I should have gone with 97%.
Going to try it next wkend. I think i might have done it years ago.


This is the only time I've seen it done this way -- 99% is probably close!  

post #58 of 121

Sharp is sharp.  Angles good?  Don't really matter base away, base toward.  (Yes, I do all mine base away).

 

Here is short test that one might do on any ski any time.

 

post #59 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfdog View Post

If Nemesis256's file is as long as the one shown in litterbug's picture, AND he has mounted the file in a straight line in the tool (as he indicated), is it not possible that the front and back of the file are engaging with the edges?  If that is the case, that would greatly limit the contact of the middle of the file with the edges (where we normally would be engaging the file with the ski edge to do our work).  The cutting would be inconsistent because the sidecut of the ski is contacting the ends of the file and  preventing the desired contact in the middle. The sidecut also varies along the length of the ski, which would account for the inconsistency. 
Quite true. I just slapped the file on the guide that way to emphasize the direction the tang/logo part of the file should face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I don't get the setup either lakespapa. Are you saying the base of the ski faces you? If so, do you file two handed?
Yes -- this is from Alpine Base & Edge; edge filing starts around 4:00. I don't use a freehand shop stone for burrs, as this guy does, but I like the way he files -- as I said, it works better for me than the bases-facing-away, one-handed method.
Next time I'm working on a sidewall I'm going to try it with the base facing me; watching him makes me think it might work a little better. I like filing the edges with the base away from me, but I don't see that it matters--so long as you can work consistently, the ski doesn't care which way it faces.
post #60 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

Sharp is sharp.  Angles good?  Don't really matter base away, base toward.  (Yes, I do all mine base away).

 

Here is short test that one might do on any ski any time.

 


Jacques, not a bad way of doing it....however....it must work in both directions to confirm that you don't have a hanging burr.  It's the same as hanging a knife on your nail, must work on both sides of the blade.

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