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Googles - inner reflections? Oakley Canopy Prizm and Anon M2 Red Solex

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

Hi Folks - I must have tried on 4-5 pairs of goggles over last two days. ofcourse in the store it is really hard to evaluate the quality of the lense/optics.  I took an Oakley Prizm and Anon M2 Red Solex home. standing in my backyard on an overcast day (no snow on the ground here unfortunately), I can see "inner reflections" with both the Anon and Oakleys.  This is pretty distracting and not present in my 10 year old basic Oakleys.  Is this a common thing?  I assume when on the ski hill this sort of thing disappears otherwise I would have found a lot more people complaining about it.  THanks!

 

sincerely,

 

Tom

post #2 of 28

I have several days on the mountain with the Anon M2 Red Solex and it hasn't been an issue.

post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 

ok thanks. I figured this won't be an issue when out on the mountain.

post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 

Hmmm.. I had my wife try them on today in sunny conditions outside the house.  There is a huge reflection from ones face with both lenses. It looks like there are smudges all over the lenses but it is really a reflection. Am I going nuts? Is this normal?  Didn't expect this from a $250 goggle.

post #5 of 28

Actually, I know exactly what you mean.  I have the M2, but also the Smith IO/X, and Oakley A-Frame.  The M2's are the only ones that do this.  I noticed it when I put them on inside the house to get my gear ready for the season.  HOWEVER, it doesn't seem to be an issue outside, with white snow on the ground, or night skiing either (that I can tell).  There must be something very unusual going on with the way direct lights bounce inside the lens?  I do see it, but it's slightly more of a glare than an actual reflection, I think.  But it's not there when I'm skiing on snow.  Maybe the lenses are tuned for white snow/light but show this issue when in a normal indoor/outdoor setting.

 

It was disconcerting, I agree.  And I worried about it, after spending lotsa $$$ on the M2 as well.  But it wasn't a problem when skiing.  Give them a shot on the slopes and see what you think.

 

Interestingly, my only real problem with the M2 is that they tend to fog a bit easy.  Which is why I switched to the IO/X Turbo Fan instead.  Go figure.

post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 

Thank you for confirming i'm not going crazy over here.  I took them outside yesterday with no snow and issue is still here. I guess i'll wait until i'm on the hill later in the week to determine how it works on the snow. It does seem hard to believe that on snow it would be entirely gone.

 

I may even call Anon support to see what they have to say about this. I love everything else about this goggle. The fit, the lens change system, comfort etc. bummer.

post #7 of 28

I'll be using my M2s with Red Solex this Friday for the first time. I haven't noticed the effect you're talking about, but I haven't had them on outside yet - just in the store and house. I'll see how it is when I get out there and report back, though from others experience I suspect it will be fine.

post #8 of 28
Thread Starter 

Beginning to wonder if I have a defective set of lenses that are missing the internal anti reflective coating. I've sent a note to Anon.

 

dbostedo - if you don't see it indoors, I doubt you'll see it on the slopes. It is VERY obvious indoors or just outside. Impossible to ignore.

 

Really bummed.. thinking I may go Smith I/O 7 or back to Oakley.

post #9 of 28

Please report back after you're on the slopes, and what Anon replies.  To be honest, I hadn't considered mine were possibly defective, I just assumed it was a weird thing indoors with that particular lens.  I'm interested in what you hear back.  

post #10 of 28
Thread Starter 

Burton rider support says this is normal and that once on the slopes your eyes will focus on things in the distance and you won't notice it. Not sure i'm entirely happy with that for a $250 goggle. I'm going to try Smith I/O 7 and do a side by side. 

post #11 of 28

Interesting.  That could explain my observations regarding the lack of issue when out on the snow.  Hadn't considered the "distance/focal point" thing.

post #12 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommytuna View Post
 

Hmmm.. I had my wife try them on today in sunny conditions outside the house.  There is a huge reflection from ones face with both lenses. It looks like there are smudges all over the lenses but it is really a reflection. Am I going nuts? 

 

Nope, not going nuts.     And it happens with cheap lenses too.  And it happens with deep (OTG) goggles. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommytuna View Post
 

Burton rider support says this is normal and that once on the slopes your eyes will focus on things in the distance and you won't notice it. Not sure i'm entirely happy with that for a $250 goggle. I'm going to try Smith I/O 7 and do a side by side. 

 

Yeh, that's a rubbish explanation and means they don't understand it either.     It's like saying you won't notice the fog/haze that's in front of your windshield if you just focus on that deer crossing the road. 

 

What they're counting on is the sunlight from the slope being overwhelmingly, ten times or more, stronger than the reflection from your face so that the external signal overwhelms the haze/overlay of your reflection. 

post #13 of 28
Thread Starter 

Yah I wasn't happy with the explanation either.  Kudos to the guy for admitting it happens and even saying he personally notices it himself. I would just expect more from such a high end piece of optics.   It would make me nuts sitting on the lift on a cloud day and seeing all these reflections.  I wouldn't wear them.

 

Going to check I/O 7 at local ski shop with Ignitor lenses. Going to test it outside and see if I can see the same reflections or not.

post #14 of 28

Okay, I took mine outside and I can see the reflection if I stare up towards the sun with my head tilted upwards and then I look downwards... a position I would never ever be in when skiing. 

 

I can also see the same with my Oakley Crowbars and my Smith I/O's, although a bit less so because they aren't mirrored lenses.  I think maybe you're worrying about it too much.

post #15 of 28

I just did a little looking myself... I can see a little reflection if I stand in a darker part of my home and look at the bright windows. If I turn 90 degrees and look at the far wall, I don't see anything. And when I step outside where it's somewhat sunny I don't see anything.

 

I also tried my older cheap goggles (Gordini's), and they don't show it as much, but I see the same effect in similar conditions. They aren't mirrored and have a cylindircal rather than spherical lens.

 

I wonder if this has anything to do with your cheeks/eyes/nose an how they reflect light back to the inside of the goggle lens. I assume that's what we're seeing.

post #16 of 28
Thread Starter 
just did a side by side Anon m2 vs Smith io7. store owner let me take both outside. lucky it was sunny and five mins later clouds rolled in

anon inner reflections were far more pronounced. smith still had it but wasnt annoying. i also much prefer thr ignitor mirror on the smith vs red solx. anon still rules for ease of change.

happy at last
post #17 of 28
Thread Starter 

Now that i'm back in front of my PC, here are more details on my findings in the hunt for the ideal goggle.  Figured this could help others who are really picky.

 

ANON M2 vs. IO/7 and why I picked the IO/7

 

- Anon has superior lens change system. I could do it without a fingerprint on the lens in a few seconds.

- I/O 7 lens change is clumsy compared to anon. Getting those tabs lined up at the bottom isn't as easy as I would have liked. No doubt some fingerprints on the lens during the change

- As stated above, the Anon (with Red Sol x or Blue Sensor) has more of a pronounced internal reflection that is very distracting. This happened both indoors and outdoors and didn't matter if I was looking at the sun or not..  Anon support line acknowledged this and that you wouldn't notice it when skiing. 

- I/O 7 still has reflections but they are minor in comparison

- I/O 7 has silicone on the strap - it literally glues itself to my helmet. The lack of silicone gripper on the Anon is inexcusable in this price range

- I/O 7s Ignitor Mirror and Red Sensor (in my personal opinion) were much better than the included Anon Red Sol-X and low light lens.  Anon's had a strong yellow hue which I personally dislike and didnt' seem to handle the direct sunlight as well.  The ignitor has a pleasant rose tint and seems to be very well rounded and crisp (I will likely leave this lens in unless it is a white out or i'm night skiing in which case i'll swap in the Red Sensor)

- Anon comes with a very nice hard case while Smith comes with a very nice spare lens hardcase. I think I prefer to have the spare lens hard case so I can carry the spare lens safely in my jacket. For travel I will buy a hard case for the whole thing or use the box it came in.

 

I also looked at the SpyDoom and Oakley Canopy Prizm.  Didn't like the fit of the Spydoom (make me look like an alien according to my kids and the optics weren't as pleasing).  Oakley Canopy had good optics with the jade prizm lens but the changeability is horrendous and there was no low light lens included.  Would have cost me close to $300 CAD for the whole setup with a second lens. Airbrake just didn't fit my nose so I ruled it out.


Encourage everyone to try this carefully when shopping and find a store where they will let you go outside and test the optics. Testing in a store with dozens of bright halogen lights is pointless.

post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommytuna View Post
 

Encourage everyone to try this carefully when shopping and find a store where they will let you go outside and test the optics. Testing in a store with dozens of bright halogen lights is pointless.

 

No offense, but I might encourage you to try actually skiing with these goggles before making all these determinations.

 

Unless your ski shop is on the mountain and you're walking outside looking at the snow, walking outside to the street isn't going to tell you a whole lot. 

post #19 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kauffee View Post
 

 

No offense, but I might encourage you to try actually skiing with these goggles before making all these determinations.

 

Unless your ski shop is on the mountain and you're walking outside looking at the snow, walking outside to the street isn't going to tell you a whole lot. 


Very true - no substitute for trying them on the slopes for a full day.     

post #20 of 28

Yeah, I actually don't think you would have noticed the inner reflections on the Red Sol X when you were skiing. Burton was probably right about that. When I used the Blue Sensor you could see the reflections indoors, like you said, but I never noticed it on the slopes... with one exception - night skiing. The reflections were definitely noticeable, but again I don't think it actually interfered with my vision.

 

(Btw, hopefully enough people complain about the lack of silicone on the M2 goggle that they add it. I have a pair sitting new with the tags on it that I won't use for that reason. Drives me nuts.)

post #21 of 28

Unfortunately, Anon adding a silicone grip doesn't help all of us who shelled out serious cash already.  If they were really serious about customer service, they'd offer silicone straps at a significant discount or something.  As I said in another thread, I LOVE the lens swap design on the M2, but lack of silicone grippers is beyond incomprehensible; the person responsible for that oversight or omission should be made to sit at a desk during every pow day this season!

 

I'm seriously considering selling my M2's, between the lack of a gripper and the fogging up, especially since I got such an unbelievable deal on the IO/X Turbo Fan.  I like the Smith lenses better as well anyways.  *sigh*

post #22 of 28

Agreed. I had terrible fogging issues with the Blue Lagoon last year and Anon replaced the whole goggle (hence why I have a pair with the tags still on). I remember seeing comments on Backcountry where people said the same thing, though they seem to have been removed. Just looking at the replacement, it does look like the glue on the gasket between the two lenses is even, whereas on the last one there were clearly gaps that I'm sure let moisture in. If that's fixed it's a great goggle. The lack of silicone is beyond annoying, though. If I could sell them for close to what I paid for them, I'd do it. 

post #23 of 28

So I was out today, and I had zero issues with my M2s and Red Solex lenses. It was a fairly sunny day, and they worked great. I WAS able to see a little internal reflection on the first lift up with the sun very low, but the rest of the day I either never noticed it, or couldn't see it (and I looked for a it a few times). 

 

I thought they were really great - coming from cheap Gordini's the view through these is much larger (better peripheral) and clearer. I'm happy with them, though can't compare to other higher end goggles.

post #24 of 28

I was Googling this very issue today and EpicSki came through as usual. So no, Tommytuna, you're not the only one. I thought I'd share my experience - like you I got two pairs of goggles, the Smith I/OX and Spy Doom. I was leaning towards keeping the Doom until I got them both out on the hill yesterday. I started out wearing the I/OX for an hour or two and then changed to the Doom. The first thing I noticed was the inside reflections. I wore the Doom for the rest of the day and noticed it a few times, especially when looking towards the sun in the late afternoon. I didn't notice it at all on the I/OX, although some reflection is still there. I don't know exactly what Smith does differently but it could have something to do with their anti-fog coating which is supposedly burned into the lens. However they do it, you can see the difference on the inside of the lenses when you hold them under a light. First pic is the I/OX, second is the Doom. As you can see the Doom is almost a mirror reflection while the I/OX lens spreads the light around. It's a shame because the Doom has a way better lens change system. For what it's worth, the I/OX has the Ignitor Mirror lens and the Doom has the Happy Persimmon w/Silver Mirror.

 

 

 

I haven't worn the Anon M2 but I think we'll both be happy with the Smith goggles.

post #25 of 28

I now have 20 days using my Anon M2's without any reflection issues.  Actually, I used my Oakley Crowbars the other day and the first thing I noticed was how much less visibility there was in comparison.  The field of view is a big difference.  So to anyone thinking about getting the M2's, don't let this thread scare you away.

post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

I now have 20 days using my Anon M2's without any reflection issues.  Actually, I used my Oakley Crowbars the other day and the first thing I noticed was how much less visibility there was in comparison.  The field of view is a big difference.  So to anyone thinking about getting the M2's, don't let this thread scare you away.

 

I'll second that... I've had 9 more days in my M2s since my post above - mostly with the Red Solex, but also using the Blue Lagoon lens a couple of times - and really like them. I can't compare to the other goggles mentioned here, but I haven't had problems with my M2s and the field of view is great.

post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
 

For what it's worth, the I/OX has the Ignitor Mirror lens and the Doom has the Happy Persimmon w/Silver Mirror.

 

 

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. The Smith Ignitor Mirror is a mid to bright light lens, whereas the Happy Persimmon is more low to mid light. My experience is that inner reflections are more prominent on lenses with higher VLTs. Like I said above, the Smith Blue Sensor had prominent inner reflections for me. (Not that it bothered me, but they were there.) I never noticed them with the Ignitor Mirror.

post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by kauffee View Post
 

 

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. The Smith Ignitor Mirror is a mid to bright light lens, whereas the Happy Persimmon is more low to mid light. My experience is that inner reflections are more prominent on lenses with higher VLTs. Like I said above, the Smith Blue Sensor had prominent inner reflections for me. (Not that it bothered me, but they were there.) I never noticed them with the Ignitor Mirror.


The other lens that came with the I/OX was the yellow lens, which I believe has a VLT of 65%. The Happy Persimmon has 49.5% (I got the one with the silver mirror, the one without the mirror has a higher VLT). It's a similar story - the reflections are less noticeable on the Smith than the Spy.

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