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3-part separation, Upper Body, Middle Body, Lower Body - Page 4  

post #91 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Just to argue I suppose, but the focus of what 'good' skiing is can be dictated by many factors. Sure, it's easier to carve on new gear, but using your 'skidding example', I can teach elements of timing, duration, structure/stacking, and separation using a very soft, skiddy turn. If you saw me teaching yesterday, this is exactly what I was doing, and going by your post, I'd be another PSIA object of ridicule. In reality, you'd be missing the larger picture of what we'd be addressing in subsequent sessions. It's not a huge stretch to add pressure and edging to graduate this all into carved turns on appropriate terrain.

High end performance carving is an athletic endeavor that isn't at the top of the charts of many skiers in North America, particularly those whose home area includes a lot of steep, ungroomed terrain and a strong 'go off piste or go home' local culture. That said, it is a skill that a true 'expert' should have in their bag of tricks.

>>>" I can teach elements of timing, duration, structure/stacking, and separation using a very soft, skiddy turn. ">>>

 

Yes, but that is a matter of edge control, proper ski guidance and body position while still retaining turn shape. And I'll bet you didn't use up UNWEIGHTING either. There are many nuances to the new modern turn. You don't have to ski on rails to employ the fundamental techniques. There are many instances when I don't want to be on rails, but my fundamentals do not change. 

 

>>>"Just to argue I suppose, but the focus of what 'good' skiing is can be dictated by many factors">>>>

 

YES!!!  And that is why it is so important to focus on the root fundamentals. Everything else is just an enhancement of them. Here's how I approach things (I know I've broached these things in other threads...

 

1) Turn shape.  Absolutely the most important thing in skiing. Without a good concept of your turn shape, no matter what you are trying to do you cannot ski well without it. Correcting poor turn shape alone can often correct mechanical issues. 

 

2) Continuous active inside ski.  This is link to turn shape. It creates the torque for everything else to function providing opposing force for other mechanical necessities. [Lots to discuss on this one]

 

3) Proper transitioning lateral body position.  This is the secret sauce. It unlocks everything, particularly the feet so that the skis, particularly the (new) inside ski can be activated. It provides the position for the outside ski to assume pressure at the appropriate time, establishes a platform for the completion of each turn and allows initiation with the new inside ski with a minimal (or no) upper body movement. 

 

Focus on those things and you're more than half way to skiing great in all conditions and terrain. 

 

You can run an entire lesson at any level just cycling thru those three things. 

post #92 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

Forgive me for saying so, but sometimes javelins can be counterproductive because it focuses on outside leg activity when often the problems stem from TOO MUCH OUTSIDE LEG activity. Turning the inside leg in the direction of the turn provides a counter force to help keep the hips facing downhill.  


I never made a value judgement on Javelins. Jus suggested exploring it to see how it relates to what he is working on. He can judge it himself.

post #93 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

That's not exactly accurate oldschooler... Things are quite a bit different today.  Respectfully, let me list a few things: 

 

In past the outside ski would be the dominant ski  muscling the skis across the fall line. To release the skis for every turn we would need to use an up motion or a sudden retraction to get some sort of unweighting to release the skis from an old turn and try to immediately power the outside ski.  On straight skis it took a great deal of speed to create a pure cavred turn, so most skiers never achieved that.  Skis were then pivoted until comfortable enough to engage edges within an already started turn.  

 

Today, for most turns we rarely use up unweighting  (or unweighting at all) and the INSIDE ski is the active ski from which everything functions around. We do not rely on muscling the outside ski for turning as the shaped skis do most of the work nowadays.  Release of the edge of the old turn can often be achieved by rolling of the ski edges (provided body position is proper). When cruising pure carving begins almost immediately. There are not dead spots in turns, and traverses are virtually non existent. 

 

And those are only the beginning of the differences. 


Well....having just stepped off 205 just a few years ago and very quickly adapted to modern shaped ski (both FIS GS and SL), I must respectfully disagree as the fundamentals are still the same.  The biggest difference is some of the timing and extremes of edge angles that you can achieve.  The actions learned to get a 205 GS race ski to carve and hold required even tighter form that it does to get a FIS GS to do the same.  The turns were no different other than more work and focus was required.  The edge hold on the new is absolutely amazing as is the ease it is to achieve compared to the old.

 

Cheers and Happy New Year.

post #94 of 96
Thread Starter 

I would like to ask that this thread be locked.

 

The original concept of 3-part separation has been very well addressed.

 

Chad and others have pretty much agreed that yes it does. 

 

What we do with it is another question.

 

I think it is clear that skiers need to be aware of it, otherwise they may be pointing their chest and shoulders down the hill thinking they are using upper body separation when their hips are square to their skis.

 

In any case, a new thread on general skiing topics would be nice.   

 

In the old days the Thread Starter could lock a thread.  I'd like this closed now please.

post #95 of 96
I'm not meaning to place any judgement on sciddy skiing mark but you seem to have missed the point. Skiing with lots of rotary and up extension is not really necessary on today's skis, for example. It was on the old Skis outside of a race course. However those methods of yesteryear still heavily influence the way the ski instruction world approaches skiing and teaching skiing. Those aren't the only things but there are some old memes that came about due to trying to making skiing accessible to average recreational skiers on the old equipment and some of those old memes are simply out dated now but it's really hard to get rid of them because they permeate the industry.

This is not meant to ridicule PSIA so try not to be defensive about this observation. Things are slowly changing for the better in terms of some of these memes but old ideas die hard
post #96 of 96

Locked per OP's request.

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