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Lower Leg Pain Just Above ankle (Posterior)

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

Hello,

 

I'm in Utah.

 

My brother and I have the exact same problem since buying new boots and Intuition Liners!

 

I've been getting real bad lower leg pain in the tendon that goes down the outside of the back of my leg and connects behind my ankle. Leaning back in my boots adds to the pain and it runs from my ankle up to mid calf. Twisting of the boot while it's in the ski can also cause pain. 

By the end of the day my legs are tender to the touch and it hurts when I walk around. If I patiently wait to ski for a couple days, the pain doesn't come back until later in the ski day. If I ski the next day, it hurts after only a run or two. The worst conditions to exacerbate the symptoms are hard crud or anything that causes my skis to skip on the snow.

 

I skied 50+ days on Solomon Impact CS (110) boots with the stock liners in them and had ankle pain. My ankle would over pronate and push into the inside of my boots. I corrected this with custom foot beds and by placing a pad-like extra "donut" material (sticky on the back) on the ankle areas of my liners. This seemed to help until they got packed out. 

 

Last year, my brother moved home from Germany and he had Tecnica Cochise Pro Light boots with Intuition Wrap Liners. I tried them on and they felt very comfortable. I was particularly impressed with the Intuition liners. They felt thicker, more supportive, and they seemed like they wouldn't pack out as quickly (especially in the ankle area). 

 

So, I bought the exact same set up (Tecnica Cochise Pro Light with Intuition Liner).  Now I don't have ankle bone problems, I have a new problem. 

 

My brother and I now have the exact same problem as described above! Our legs hurt on day two of hard skiing in the exact same area. They are very tender to the touch. The problem is exacerbated when conditions are rough, choppy, or when we wear bigger, fatter, and longer skis. Skiing two days in a row is almost impossible now. It feels like our bones/tendons/muscles are bruised in this exact same area. 

 

I'm thinking that it has to be the boots. But, it also may be the liners? Maybe Intuition liners are great to make your foot and ankle comfortable, but, it seems as though this NEW problem has occurred. I've never had this issue and now I have it with the same boot/liner set up as my brother. He has the same issues. It's either the boots or the liner.

 

Thoughts? 

 

Shane

post #2 of 23

A low boot board angle combined with a short Achilles/gastroc could cause the problem----try adding a heel lift in your boots, this will change the boot board angle and open up your ankle joint----might help.

 

do you have an adequate dorsiflexion range of motion at the ankle?

 

mike

post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 

Mike,


Thanks for the reply. The issue has just started since buying the new boots and Intuition Liners. Both my brother and I have the same problem. My brother bought the boots/liners last year and skied on them for an entire season and had these issues. He tried a heel lift and he said that it did not help.

 

I have adequate range of motion and flexion in my ankle - yes. (Is that what you were asking?  I can point my toes forward normally and point my toes up normally). 

 

This issue didn't occur until buying the new boots and Intuition liners, so, I would think that my Achilles/Gastroc are not short. 

 

Additional thoughts? 


Thanks again for the help,

 

Shane

post #4 of 23

Dorsi Flexion: ---sit in a chair,  keep your heels on the floor, raise your fore foot off of the floor as far as you can----have someone else try to slip 2 fingers stacked up under your 5th metatarsal.  If they can only slip one finger under there then you have limited range of motion, 2 fingers (pinky and ring finger stacked up) is normal.

 

mike

post #5 of 23
Thread Starter 

Mike,

 

I have good dorsi-flexion. Passed the test easily. Other thoughts? 

post #6 of 23

I reread you original post and don't see where you mentioned the size boot you bought and what size foot you have (measured in centimeters please)?

 

Did you have the liners heat molded?

 

I would still try the heel lifts to see if they have any chance of eliminating the problem.

 

mike

post #7 of 23
Thread Starter 

Mike,

 

I've been to two different boot fitters who know their stuff (I ski 50+ days a year). My Solomon boots are 27/27.5 (317mm) and my Tecnica boots (the ones I'm having problems with) are 27/27.5 (320mm). They are properly fitted. With both pair of boots, I had the liners heat fitted and I had custom foot beds made. I wear a size 11 shoe (USA). I'm not sure what that translates to in CM.  Although, I don't think that my issue is a boot fit issue. I am fairly confident that I have the right size of boots. I own three pair and have gone to two separate boot fitters. By now, I know my size and what the "right fit" feels like. 

 

My issue is with the Tecnica Boots with Intuition Liners. I'm beginning to think that my issue may be the Intuition Liners. I've googled the issue that I'm having (lower leg pain about 3-4 inches above the outside of the ankle where the tendon/muscle attaches and I've found some threads where people have the exact same problem. They happen to all have Intuition liners as well. I'm wondering if the stiffness of the Intuition liners or the way that they go up higher on the calf somehow causes the Fibularis Longus, the Fibularis Brevis, and the Flexor Hallucis Longus to become strained? 

 

I'm beginning to wonder if it's the boot or the liner (I'm 50/50 at this point). I know that one of the two is the culprit. I am also fairly confident that boot size, fit, and foot beds are not the issue (they've been set up by a professional). 

 

Thanks again for any thoughts,

 

Shane

post #8 of 23

The fibularis longus, also referred to as the peroneus longus, is a muscle inside the lateral area of the human leg, which everts and flexes the ankle. Of the three muscles in the peroneus group in the lateral area of the leg, it is the most superficially situated. The other two muscles in the peroneous group are the peroneus brevis and peroneus tertius. Attached to the head of a fibula, it is controlled by the fibular nerve. Blood flow is provided to the peroneus longus by the fibular artery. It runs the length of the fibula and turns into a tendon at the lateral malleolus attached to the ankle. It stretches to the underside of the foot and attaches to the first metarsal and the medial cuneiform. The fibularis longus works in conjunction with the tendons of the peroneal retinaculum to help to steady a leg upon a foot, especially when the person is standing on one leg, when plantarflexion is especially important.

 

the above is right out of the med books.

 

From your description:---- it sounds like your issues are more mid tendon, not at the attachment point at the head of the fibula (up at the knee)---could be a strained muscle/tendon issue, so, posably you are over using your peroneus brevis for some reason.  The brevus everts the foot (pulls upward on the outside of your ski when it is the down hill ski. The longus plantar flexes the foot medially and loads the inside edge of the ski when it is the down hill ski.  I would look at your alignment to see if there is something going on there.

 

I wonder if when you were heat molding the liners, the foot beds might have rolled inside the bottom of the liner.

 

for some reason I was thinking you were referring to your Achilles tendon attachment just above the heel in my previous posts.

 

mike

post #9 of 23
Thread Starter 

Mike,


Thanks for the medical terminology and explanation. It is helpful. I do think that it's a case of overuse. Three days ago was the day that caused the damage. It was a very heavy and wet snow day on difficult terrain with terrible visibility. Due to the combined bad conditions, both my brother and I were riding in the "back seat" much more than usual. We were also hitting rough snow and rough terrain by surprise (due to the poor visibility).  Our bodies had to react to the rough terrain and I'm sure we were skiing with poor form compared to usual. An alignment problem could be the issue as I have had two meniscus surgeries on my right knee and tore my ACL on my left knee at the beginning of last season.

 

Although, again I'll state that this area of pain has never been an issue until the new boots with Intuition liners. In addition, the fact that my brother is having the exact same issues with the exact same set up says a lot. It leads me to believe that it is either a boot or a liner issue. 

 

My Achilles Tendon feels totally fine by the way. 

 

Thanks again for the help,


Shane

post #10 of 23
Thread Starter 

And yes... my issues are mid-tendon. 

post #11 of 23

Mike is clearly resisting blaming Intuition liners and I would do the same.  I have sold them for years without and consistent or substantial problems.  

 

That said you don't say what model you have and there are several.  Assuming it is the Power Wrap does the inner wrap end directly over the pressure point?

 

Lou

post #12 of 23
Thread Starter 

Lou,

 

They are the Intuition Power Wraps (Black and Silver).  I just pulled the liners out of the boots and palpated the sore area of my legs to find out exactly where they are sore. I put the liners on and the wrap is very close and potentially touching the tender area. So yes, I do believe the inner wrap does end where the pressure point is or very near it.

 

That being said, I did have the Power Wraps heat molded and the guy who did it seemed as though he knew what he was doing (I've been to several boot fitters in the past). In addition, the inner wrap has been heat molded and compressed very thin. The inner wrap is not bulbous where I feel it would be a definite issue. Although, this could be the culprit.


Question:  Which way should the Power Wrap be wrapped? The setup I currently have (I believe it to be correct is):

 

On my left leg boot, the the inside layer of the wrap wraps inwards (counter-clockwise) toward my left hand and is flush against the flesh of my leg.  Also on my left boot, the outer layer of wrap wraps over top of the inner wrap toward my right side (toward my right ski boot - clockwise). 

 

On my right leg boot, the the inside layer of the wrap wraps outward (clockwise) toward my right hand and is flush against the flesh of my leg.  Also on my right boot, the outer layer of wrap wraps over top of the inner wrap toward my left side (toward my left ski boot - counter-clockwise). 

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks,


Shane

post #13 of 23

shaneschmtuz,

 

either specific pressure on the tendon/muscle or excessive repeated movement of the tendon/muscle. one is pressure related meaning its the liner or the liner shell combo. the other is positional and movement pattern or alignment based. 

 

i am going with movement pattern and alignment related, because it gets worse with poor form, visibility, and snow conditions. this means that your are compensating for poor position and over firing your lower leg muscles for control and balance.

 

custom footbed, over built maybe under built? custom footbed poorly interfaced with intuition liner causing change of position of heel bone, sub talar, midfoot.

 

is the liner in the boot the stock liner that came with the cochise pro light model? we sold that model and my recollection is that the liner was pretty thin and underpowered for the shell. is your liner an aftermarket intuition branded liner? or did it come stock in the boot. does the liner have a thick bottom that rounds up into the liner? or is the bottom thinner and stitched into the liner?

 

send a picture of the liner out of the boot, and send a picture of your footbed out of the liner from the back on a flat surface. 

 

jim

post #14 of 23
Thread Starter 

Jim,

 

I agree, it's either one of the two or both. My form did get really bad the day where I caused the most pain (heavy snow, difficult terrain, and terrible visibility). 


That being said, I've taken pictures of the liner and footbed. In addition, I pulled the foot bed out and looked to see if the bottom of the liner got molded at a weird angle or something. Everything looks normal and as it should be. 

 

The Cochise Pro Lights came with a very light stock liner. I bought the Intuition Pro Wraps aftermarket and had them heat molded (thinking they would be better then the stock liners). 

 

Additionally, my brother is having the exact same issue and has had the same boot/liner setup last season too and had pain the entire season. This year, the setup is new for me and now I am experiencing the same pain too. 


See attached four pictures.... 

 

 

 

 

post #15 of 23
Thread Starter 

MY CONCLUSION:

 

After 20 ski days this year and seven days in a row of skiing and experimenting with different set ups I am fairly certain that the Intuition Power Wrap liners combined with the Cochise 120 Pro Light Shells cause pain in the lower leg area (Fibularis Longus, Soleus, Flexor Hallucis Longus, Fibularis Brevis, Peroneus Brevis). Additionally, I feel that the Intuition Power Wraps are too stiff and can cause some pain after a hard day of skiing with any shell. 

 

Set ups I tried:

-  Cochise 120 Pro Light Shell (3 Buckle) with Intuition Power Wrap Liner (most painful set up)

-  Cochise 120 Pro Light Shell (3 Buckle) with stock liners (A little painful)

-  Solomon 110 Impact CS (4 Buckle) with Intuition Power Wrap Liner (A little painful)

-  Solomon 110 Impact CS (4 Buckle) with stock liner (Not painful at all). 

 

Notes:

-  I had two separate pairs of Intuition Power Wrap liners each heat molded to each of the two specific pairs of shells.

-  For each pair of boots and liners I had custom molded foot beds. 

-  Flat light and hard snow conditions caused proper ski form to suffer and caused increased pain/symptoms. 

-  I tried each set up at least 2-3 times each. 

-  A 3 Buckle vs. 4 Buckle system may add to the issue of pain/symptoms (possibly). 

-  I feel that the Intuition Power Wrap liners are simply too stiff and cause the lower leg muscles to overwork (not flex) which can lead to pain/symptoms. 

-  A buddy of mine has the Dalbello 120 Panterra boot with the Intuition I.D. Liner and he is very comfortable (we compared these two liners and the I.D. liner is much softer and much less stiff then the Power Wrap liner). 

 

CONCLUSION:

-  The Cochise 120 Pro Light shells with Intuition Power Wrap liners is painful and I do not recommend them. 

-  I have a strong belief that the Intuition Pro Wrap liners are too stiff with any shell and may cause pain/symptoms.

-  An alternative may be the Intuition I.D. liner that comes with the Dalbello 120 Panterra (made specifically for Dalbello by Intuiton - less stiff). 

 

 

Hope this helps some people,

 

Shane

post #16 of 23

Disagree with your conclusions.  The fact that Powerwrap and Cochise does not work for you does not say anything about function and comfort for others.  Probably tens of thousands of power wraps have been sold over the years.  That is a lot of very dissatisfied customers if you are correct.

 

Lou

post #17 of 23
Thread Starter 
Lou, you might be right. Although, my brother has the same set up and experiences the same excruciating teeth gritting leg pain. Hard to explain since it is happening to both of us.
post #18 of 23

Your brother and your come from the same genetic pool and could very well have the same leg structure---thus the same pain.  I agree with Lou---just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean every one would.  

 

mike

post #19 of 23
Thread Starter 
Mike,

I'm not arguing that everyone would have this same pain. I simply posted my experiences and my results. The fact is that I don't have this same pain with other liners.
post #20 of 23

So, you have come to the conclusion that Intuition liners don't work for you in the shells you have tried them in, but, on reading your conclusions, others might draw the inference that they would not work for them----and that may not be the case.

 

mike

post #21 of 23
Thread Starter 
Mike,

That is correct. Not all intuition liners. Power wraps. People can make their own decisions. My brother and I have both had issues with the wraps and have not had issues with other boot/liner set ups. (I've actually tried three pairs of boots in the last few years and have never had this issue).

This is a forum used to share information. Do you work for or sell Intuition? I'm not bashing the brand, I'm simply sharing "my" experiences and opinions.

I wish that my opinion was different. Until the pain, intuition liners are the most comfortable feeling liner I have ever worn.
post #22 of 23

CONCLUSION:

-  The Cochise 120 Pro Light shells with Intuition Power Wrap liners is painful and I do not recommend them. 

-  I have a strong belief that the Intuition Pro Wrap liners are too stiff with any shell and may cause pain/symptoms.

-  An alternative may be the Intuition I.D. liner that comes with the Dalbello 120 Panterra (made specifically for Dalbello by Intuiton - less stiff). 


You have from these statements cleared stated that Intuition products have a general problem based on the experience of only you and your brother while ignoring the multitudes that are happy.  Sorry to disagree with your comments.

 

Lou

post #23 of 23
Thread Starter 
I stand by my comments. They are based off of my experiences. I don't mind you disagreeing at all. That's what these forums are for. It's tough to make a completely viable and educated opinion. I've done my best given the circumstances. Readers can choose to try them or to not try them.
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