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How is this for a beginning tuning setup? - Page 2

post #31 of 54

My comments about the Beast side edge guide come from this thread:

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/104649/recommendations-for-a-basic-tuning-kit

 

As for wax, unless you want to wear a respirator, stick with hydrocarbon wax and leave fluoro to the racers.  The fluorene is no good for you or the ground water.

post #32 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xela View Post
 

My comments about the Beast side edge guide come from this thread:

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/104649/recommendations-for-a-basic-tuning-kit

 

 


Ah, guess I haven't had any issues with having to loosen and tighten the thumb screw to change the stone.  Also never rolled it, but I tune with the base towards me which would make it awful hard to accidentally do that.

post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
 

The OP suggested a long list of pricey tools for doing a serious race tune, but with universal wax.  Why would you go to all that trouble with universal wax? 

 

It's all about your minimum tolerance. I find that universal wax lasts throughout the entire day, whereas the rub-on wax doesn't. I don't find rub-on much easier than a hot wax and a scrape--though it's something you can do last minute. Here's what I consider the minimum for recreational ski edge tuning and simple repairs:

 

Edge+base work: 

vise

gummy stone (for deburring and removing the hanging burr)

sidewall planer (mandatory! otherwise you're going to be filing sidewall into your file)

side edge guide

file

diamond stones

base flattener or metal scraper (to flatten down any gouges you get in the base)

 

Waxing: 

iron

wax

scraper

post #34 of 54
You can see the insanity has started.
Personally, i like inspection tools so i'd jeep some airt of true bar, planer blade etc

Don't get keeping the nylon for a one brush choice. I'd go coarser. It gets it off quicker and it still seems like too long. Brass or bronze trimmed with nylon.
Haven't had an issue with the Beast. I didn't tead the whole thread. What are the relevant points?
Quote:
Ok..but since you have never used it how can you have such an opinion of how it feels?  
I've tried it at a tuning demo.
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjeep View Post

The beast awkward? Pretty simple to use and no chip clip holding your stones wink.gif

I am not a fan of  Beast Side edge tool. I have them and have not used 'em in years! It is not as stable as SVST and some stones (thicker ceramic?) don't fit in it. Much easier to roll off the edge than an SVST with a clamp. 

post #36 of 54
Thread Starter 
Pricey cart? Yeah, but my philosophy on tools is I would rather spend a bit more now and have them last, instead of replacing them repeatedly. I have many more years of skiing to do, hopefully, and a good tool should last many years. And I want to do it right. If I am already going to be taking the time to tune and wax my skis, it doesn't take much more time to do it right. Having said that, buying good tools doesn't mean wasting it on unnecessary things.

As for the wax choice, I went with a cheap wax to use on the first hot scrapes to get them clean and ready for the base prep wax and a better wax(maybe I'm wrong here?). I am holding off on the final wax choice to see what the temp is going to be in Jackson Hole and Altabird in early February, and wax them just before leaving.
post #37 of 54

I suppose it's all in what you get used to but when I grab anything other than a conventional file guide, like my SVST guides, and a spring clamp, it feels like I'm using my grandfathers tools and it just slows my process down.  Long time ago I bought one of those clamp things for my SVST file guides and I think I only used it for one side of the ski before I went back to my spring clamps.

 

Diamond files are great for all kinds of different touch up jobs or deburring but they don't get edges "sharp" like an actual file does.  If you're new to ski tuning and or you haven't quite developed a feel for using a file, start out with a file that is either a fine or extra fine, meaning it has a lot of teeth per cm.  They don't cut as aggressively and fast as one with deeper and less teeth per cm.

 

Rec. and free skiing tuners are generally night and day apart.  Unless you're a former racer, then you'll probably still tune your powder skis the same as your race skis because you just can't help yourself and it's hard to break old habits. :)

post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmoney View Post

Pricey cart? Yeah, but my philosophy on tools is I would rather spend a bit more now and have them last, instead of replacing them repeatedly. I have many more years of skiing to do, hopefully, and a good tool should last many years. And I want to do it right. If I am already going to be taking the time to tune and wax my skis, it doesn't take much more time to do it right. Having said that, buying good tools doesn't mean wasting it on unnecessary things.

As for the wax choice, I went with a cheap wax to use on the first hot scrapes to get them clean and ready for the base prep wax and a better wax(maybe I'm wrong here?). I am holding off on the final wax choice to see what the temp is going to be in Jackson Hole and Altabird in early February, and wax them just before leaving.

Opinions, I'm sure, will vary but the only two waxes you need would be Dominator base prep and Dominator Zoom or Zoom with graphite.  Maybe add some Dominator Butter in the spring for when things start to warm up but if you get those first two waxes, you'll be in great shape for nearly all conditions short of the extremes.

post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


the tool has a steel blade for flattening and two stone blades for structuring, which work well if the base is flat and you keep it away from the edges.

Otherwise, sandpaper: 150 for wet, 220 for dry

Line selection matters more ski.gif

I honestly fear base grinding - haven't gotten a good one yet! Rather spend two evenings with files and sandpaper... And then ski the hairs off tongue.gif

Next time i buy from Tognar, I will get one extra stone blade to break in half and structure non-flat bases - I like the result.


You have never had a good base grind? Where do you live and ski? THere has got to be someone that can do a decent job!

post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmoney View Post

Pricey cart? Yeah, but my philosophy on tools is I would rather spend a bit more now and have them last, instead of replacing them repeatedly. I have many more years of skiing to do, hopefully, and a good tool should last many years. And I want to do it right. If I am already going to be taking the time to tune and wax my skis, it doesn't take much more time to do it right. Having said that, buying good tools doesn't mean wasting it on unnecessary things.

As for the wax choice, I went with a cheap wax to use on the first hot scrapes to get them clean and ready for the base prep wax and a better wax(maybe I'm wrong here?). I am holding off on the final wax choice to see what the temp is going to be in Jackson Hole and Altabird in early February, and wax them just before leaving.

Opinions, I'm sure, will vary but the only two waxes you need would be Dominator base prep and Dominator Zoom or Zoom with graphite.  Maybe add some Dominator Butter in the spring for when things start to warm up but if you get those first two waxes, you'll be in great shape for nearly all conditions short of the extremes.


Well, for skiing in Iowa, yeah, I might have an opinion that varies, based on experience in central MN.  I spend most of the season on Dominator temp-specific wax (HX-77), not infrequently mixing in some Dominator Bullet to deal with really cold, really abrasive man-made snow on the local bumps (bluffs, actually).  "Warming up" isn't usually the problem.  It's having your bases look like they've run over a belt sander...

post #41 of 54

We are talking about alpine skiing, not XC, right?  Do you all have anything to even ski down there?  Thought most of you folks just ski across the snow instead of down it.  Went to a little ski hill in Slinger WI. once.  I'm pretty sure I've seen bigger mounds of snow in parking lots that had been plowed and pushed up in a pile. :D  Just messing with yah.

 

By the way, I did say, except for extremes and the kind of cold they get there would certainly fall into the "extreme" range.

post #42 of 54
I liked the Dominator Zoom as an all temp. Bit sticky ironing though. Can't get that nice pond trailing the iron. Then a cold one and maybe a really warm on or use the Butter (great stuff)

Why eliminate Base Prep wax? It's a good wax for cleaning and warm temps
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

We are talking about alpine skiing, not XC, right?  Do you all have anything to even ski down there?  Thought most of you folks just ski across the snow instead of down it.  Went to a little ski hill in Slinger WI. once.  I'm pretty sure I've seen bigger mounds of snow in parking lots that had been plowed and pushed up in a pile. :D  Just messing with yah.

 

No, it's a fair point.  I have a moderate issue with vertigo out west, just because I'm not used to being able to see that far down...

 

By the way, I did say, except for extremes and the kind of cold they get there would certainly fall into the "extreme" range.

 

Yes, you did, though HX77 covers snow temps 5 - 20F, which is pretty reliably what we get most of the season (except when it gets colder).  Is that really extreme?  @sibhusky and others in the inland Northwest or BC might beg to differ.

 

I was going with the OP's posted location in Iowa.  If he's only ever skiing out west, it's probably a different answer.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Why eliminate Base Prep wax? It's a good wax for cleaning and warm temps

 

If that's a reference to my post, I didn't mean to eliminate it.  In fact I swear by it (much more often than at it).  Just trying to keep the post short.

post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
 

The OP suggested a long list of pricey tools for doing a serious race tune, but with universal wax.  Why would you go to all that trouble with universal wax? 

 

It's all about your minimum tolerance. I find that universal wax lasts throughout the entire day, whereas the rub-on wax doesn't. I don't find rub-on much easier than a hot wax and a scrape--though it's something you can do last minute. Here's what I consider the minimum for recreational ski edge tuning and simple repairs:

 

Edge+base work: 

vise

gummy stone (for deburring and removing the hanging burr)

sidewall planer (mandatory! otherwise you're going to be filing sidewall into your file)

side edge guide

file

diamond stones

base flattener or metal scraper (to flatten down any gouges you get in the base)

 

Waxing: 

iron

wax

scraper

 

I live in an apartment now, so no vise for me:

 

 

That works well for edges, but it's hard to flatten the base.  OTOH it doesn't hold the ski firmly enough to do real damage with the flattener, and I'll get a base grind or improvise something else when I need to flatten. When I was in a race program, we did most of our tuning and all of the waxing on simple supports like that.

I use aluminum oxide and ceramic stones a lot more than diamond stones, just because I think the last longer.  I haven't hot waxed and scraped since I had a better place to work.  The clean up is just too hard.  

I've done a lot of race tunes in my life, but they were so time consuming that I often ended up skiing on slow skis anyway.  I do better with the quick and dirty plan.  It's never perfect, but it's always good enough.

 

BK 

post #45 of 54
I'd say 5f - 20f is the norm here, but usually there's about 10-14 days of -5f to +5f at some point. Not expecting it this year. Can't believe I'm using red wax....
post #46 of 54
Thread Starter 


I got my bench built and the tools ordered. I had plenty of time and got my skis tuned up, hot scraped, and some base prep wax in them. I'm actually very happy with the results. It wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be, but I'm sure my tool experience probably helped. Thanks for the info and thank you @Jacques for your awesome YouTube videos. I will give it a few weeks and see what the temp and conditions are in JHMR and get the appropriate wax on them.
post #47 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmoney View Post



I got my bench built and the tools ordered. I had plenty of time and got my skis tuned up, hot scraped, and some base prep wax in them. I'm actually very happy with the results. It wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be, but I'm sure my tool experience probably helped. Thanks for the info and thank you @Jacques for your awesome YouTube videos. I will give it a few weeks and see what the temp and conditions are in JHMR and get the appropriate wax on them.


Nice work!  You will soon be a master!   More you tune, the more you will learn.  When your not sure about snow temps. etc. Graphite Zoom or Hyper Zoom will usually work great.  Take care Money!

post #48 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post
 

You're spending quite a bit on a cart; so I presume you're going to be spending quite some time doing your tuning.  

But you're getting the cheapest wax?  

If I were you, I'd step up to the next tier wax so that 3 hours you're inevitibaly going to spend re-waxing over and over is worth it.  You can still stick with the all-temp, or get in some cold temp which always tends to last longer.  

 

 

What's wrong with the Racewax brand of Hydrocarbon wax?  Is spending more on say Swix CH-series worth it?  The low price is also good for hot scraping (their warm temp wax).... so you don't feel as bad wasting money on hot scraping. 

 

The next tier wax from Racewax is their FluoroMax wax.... that one requires a different technique to application...  but yields in less scraping.

 

(I have to use up my FluoroMax all-temp this season... so I can try the Dominator Hyper Zoom next season).

 

 

See video for when he gets to using the FluoroMax.... 

post #49 of 54
There's nothing wrong with the cheaper wax, but my advice is more from a time/cost benefit perspective.

Anyone who is getting serious about tuning and buying all this stuff is already spending money. By buying all the tools, the logic is that you're not so money conscious. You're not the college student using a candle a clothes iron, and a credit card in the motel room to wax your gear. You already invested hundreds for your tools. What was the logic and purpose for that expenditure? To get a better quality wax job. So spending a couple extra $ for superior wax follows the same logic.

There's also the labor and effort involved.
I'm going to bet the OP is going to spending like 2hours+ to even just put on a hot wax and all the steps, I know I did once I bought some tuning gear. Later on you maybe you become less particular and skip some steps, but still maybe you still spend an hour doing a wax job.
So you might as well use good wax to make those hours of elbowgrease spent worthwhile by using superior product. Potentially if you're also using good product, it will last longer or still perform when half-worn, so that by itself makes it worth it.
It's the same with car detailing. If someone gets into it and already spends and buys all these car detailing tools and spends hours waxing, it doesn't then make sense to use cheap car wax that wears off after it rains once just to save a few $ (when you've already spent $$ for the tools).
post #50 of 54
I don't race, so I have no hard data, but I prefer my Racewax to either the Swix or Togner equivalents. I know I glide better than others I ski with, and that's good enough for me. Hydrocarbon wax is hydrocarbon wax, IMO. Some wax includes paying for a ton of advertising. Personally, I'd rather pay for wax.

Two hours for waxing?
post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post

There's nothing wrong with the cheaper wax, but my advice is more from a time/cost benefit perspective.

Anyone who is getting serious about tuning and buying all this stuff is already spending money. By buying all the tools, the logic is that you're not so money conscious. You're not the college student using a candle a clothes iron, and a credit card in the motel room to wax your gear. You already invested hundreds for your tools. What was the logic and purpose for that expenditure? To get a better quality wax job. So spending a couple extra $ for superior wax follows the same logic.

There's also the labor and effort involved.
I'm going to bet the OP is going to spending like 2hours+ to even just put on a hot wax and all the steps, I know I did once I bought some tuning gear. Later on you maybe you become less particular and skip some steps, but still maybe you still spend an hour doing a wax job.
So you might as well use good wax to make those hours of elbowgrease spent worthwhile by using superior product. Potentially if you're also using good product, it will last longer or still perform when half-worn, so that by itself makes it worth it.
It's the same with car detailing. If someone gets into it and already spends and buys all these car detailing tools and spends hours waxing, it doesn't then make sense to use cheap car wax that wears off after it rains once just to save a few $ (when you've already spent $$ for the tools).

the analogy is not really that great.  You can spend a lot of money for something like Zymol, it's great for the shine, but really in the durability.

 

You can spend less money to buy turtle wax, but probably won't shine as nice as Zymol, but it will be more durable.

post #52 of 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I don't race, so I have no hard data, but I prefer my Racewax to either the Swix or Togner equivalents. I know I glide better than others I ski with, and that's good enough for me. Hydrocarbon wax is hydrocarbon wax, IMO. Some wax includes paying for a ton of advertising. Personally, I'd rather pay for wax.

Two hours for waxing?

 

I mostly just use the green RaceWax, I'm not convinced that at -11F that there is much you can do that will make skis any faster on a solid block of ice.

post #53 of 54

I love Racewax's packaging... or lack thereof.

 

http://www.mcmaster.com/#resealable-bags/=vc2gtw

 

Just a cheap, resealable bag with a write-on surface..... 

 

the retail plastic cases of the Swix, Toko, etc... costs more money.

post #54 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post

I love Racewax's packaging... or lack thereof.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#resealable-bags/=vc2gtw

Just a cheap, resealable bag with a write-on surface..... 

the retail plastic cases of the Swix, Toko, etc... costs more money.
No need for retail packaging as long as you can keep track of what you've bought. wink.gif You can buy bulk "bulk packaged" 180g blocks of a lot of waxes; that's how I buy my Swix BP88 base prep... usually cheapest at Racewax.com. My wax collection consists of BP88, Hertel Hot Sauce, Hertel Cold Snap (hardener), and Hertel Spring Solution (spring additive which I haven't needed yet). It all works as well as I can imagine wanting it to in the conditions I ski in. I guess Hot Sauce skews warm, because I do feel a difference below around 5 degrees if I haven't mixed some Cold Snap in with the Hot Sauce, but have no problems with suction in spring slop.
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