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The Circle of Skiing

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

This is a little drawing I created a while back, intended to send an easy to understand message.  Skiing is about versatility.  All edging and turning skills carry value, and need to be a part of every skier's skiing if they want to enjoy the sport to the fullest.

 

post #2 of 26
Saw very similar diagrams in the PSIA manual about skill blends.
post #3 of 26

PSIA uses words (balance, rotary, edging, pressure) that indicate movements happening in different planes.

Rick's words (pivoting, carving, steering) indicate different ski-snow interactions.  

 

That difference seems significant to me... cutting the same pie up in different ways.

post #4 of 26
<<impatiently waiting for the discussion to ripen>>
post #5 of 26

Needs the 3rd dimensional factors, fore aft terrain management and absorption for sure.  Flying/jumping would be nice.

post #6 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

Needs the 3rd dimensional factors, fore aft terrain management and absorption for sure.  Flying/jumping would be nice.

and Apres.

post #7 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

PSIA uses words (balance, rotary, edging, pressure) that indicate movements happening in different planes.

Rick's words (pivoting, carving, steering) indicate different ski-snow interactions.  

 

 

LiquidFeet has it right.  This is meant to be a simple concept, speaking only about the different ways the skis interact with the snow to facilitate turning, and stressing the message that they are all important components of good skiing.  It's not meant to get into the specifics of how those interactions are actually done by the body above the skis.  Too much to communicate in a simple drawing.  

post #8 of 26

So no beer??? I feel that the drawing could be used as a nice coaster.

post #9 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
 

So no beer??? I feel that the drawing could be used as a nice coaster.

You might be on to something!  Thumbs Up

post #10 of 26

It seems to me that those three "skills" carving, pivoting, steering are all the same thing in different degrees. I don't see why they'd each get their own circle.

post #11 of 26
I'm with epic, and I don't like that steering and carving don't overlap at least a bit. Rick you have each of the circles isolated from each other with a green circle indicating that the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle where presumably someone would switch between the different modes as they go. As usual I see this as an over simplification, skiing is about blending, not switching between modes. Furthermore while I do see pivoting to be mutually exclusive from the other two modes I also don't really think it belongs on a comparison of steering and carving. Carving and steering are most definitely edging operations involving a blending of various skills, which results in turn shaping. Pivoting does not shape a turn, it releases the edges and destroys shaping for the sake of quickly pointing the skis in a new direction. I would view that as being related to the other two closely things about as much as unweighting or other things we do PRIOR to shaping our turns with carving or steering or in the grey area in between.
post #12 of 26
Litterbug that oughta do?
post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Litterbug that oughta do?
Getting there. smile.gif But how do you understand the term "pivot"? I thought Rick was talking about things like oft-admired pivot slip, and in the past have gotten the impression that pivoting was a result of the skills required to steer, rather than carve. Yet Rick separates them from each other, while your reaction makes it sound like what people think of skidding or defensive movements. So maybe you and Rick could offer your definitions?

Be kind if I'm totally off in how I use any terms, and remember that I'm just starting to grok the general shape of this stuff. I'm trying to understand what's happening in my evolving turning skills, which now involve some carving, but after spending a while yesterday trying to intuit what just steering might feel like, all I came away with was the conviction that it's time for another lesson.

As for Rick's drawing, it does look like whatever we think about the three ways that "skis interact with the snow," the Venn diagram is flawed in that there's no overlap between them. My guess would be that the empty space in the green circle represents the infinite number of ways to combine them, which may not be easily Venn-diagram-able. wink.gif
post #14 of 26
Thread Starter 

To understand the separation between the circles you have to be aware of my definitions of the terms.  In my teaching, carving and steering do not overlap, they cannot coexist.  Carving is a ski tail following the ski tip in the same track, leaving a single line in the snow.  Steering is introducing any degree of skid angle.  As soon as a skid angle is introduced, carving ceases to exist and steering is born.  There's no shared space with those guys, no overlap.

 

Pivoting too is a separate turning tool too, which is done independent of carving or steering.  It's manually redirecting the skis while they are disengaged from the snow.  While it's being done it does nothing to change the direction of travel of the skier, but once the skier reconnects with the snow and engages the edges the effect of the pivot is to sharpen the turn shape beyond what could have been done through carving or steering alone.  So it's a skill that has a major influence on turn shape, and thus deserves its own circle in this drawing.  

 

Obviously,for those who harbor different definitions of these 3 terms, this drawing my need to be altered.  Or you can just trash can it totally.

 

You may notice that I have different sizes for the carve/steer/pivot circles.  It's not cast in stone, and can change from run to run.  Just my general feeling on the prevalence of usage of these turning techniques across the spectrum of good skiing as performed by good skiers.  The areas of the carving/steering/pivoting circles outside of the good skiing circle?  Poorly executed versions of those skills.  And the blank spots within the good skiing circle?  Use your imagination.  

post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

To understand the separation between the circles you have to be aware of my definitions of the terms.  In my teaching, carving and steering do not overlap, they cannot coexist.  Carving is a ski tail following the ski tip in the same track, leaving a single line in the snow.  Steering is introducing any degree of skid angle.  As soon as a skid angle is introduced, carving ceases to exist and steering is born.  There's no shared space with those guys, no overlap.

Pivoting too is a separate turning tool too, which is done independent of carving or steering.  It's manually redirecting the skis while they are disengaged from the snow.  While it's being done it does nothing to change the direction of travel of the skier, but once the skier reconnects with the snow and engages the edges the effect of the pivot is to sharpen the turn shape beyond what could have been done through carving or steering alone.  So it's a skill that has a major influence on turn shape, and thus deserves its own circle in this drawing.  

Obviously,for those who harbor different definitions of these 3 terms, this drawing my need to be altered.  Or you can just trash can it totally.

You may notice that I have different sizes for the carve/steer/pivot circles.  It's not cast in stone, and can change from run to run.  Just my general feeling on the prevalence of usage of these turning techniques across the spectrum of good skiing as performed by good skiers.  The areas of the carving/steering/pivoting circles outside of the good skiing circle?  Poorly executed versions of those skills.  And the blank spots within the good skiing circle?  Use your imagination.  
See? I told you I don't know anything! Thanks for all the explication, Rick.
post #16 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

To understand the separation between the circles you have to be aware of my definitions of the terms.  In my teaching, carving and steering do not overlap, they cannot coexist.  Carving is a ski tail following the ski tip in the same track, leaving a single line in the snow.  Steering is introducing any degree of skid angle.  As soon as a skid angle is introduced, carving ceases to exist and steering is born.  There's no shared space with those guys, no overlap.

Pivoting too is a separate turning tool too, which is done independent of carving or steering.  It's manually redirecting the skis while they are disengaged from the snow.  While it's being done it does nothing to change the direction of travel of the skier, but once the skier reconnects with the snow and engages the edges the effect of the pivot is to sharpen the turn shape beyond what could have been done through carving or steering alone.  So it's a skill that has a major influence on turn shape, and thus deserves its own circle in this drawing.  


I agree you can't steer a carving ski, but I do not believe a pivot requires "disengagement" from the snow. The EDGES are disengaged during the pivot, of course. A properly performed pivot slip does not involve an unweighting movement or a space between the snow and the skis.
post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

I agree you can't steer a carving ski, but I do not believe a pivot requires "disengagement" from the snow. The EDGES are disengaged during the pivot, of course. A properly performed pivot slip does not involve an unweighting movement or a space between the snow and the skis.

The edge has to be disengaged in order to pivot the ski. Disengagement can come from either flattening it or unweighting it.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

To understand the separation between the circles you have to be aware of my definitions of the terms.

 

Hi Rick,

 

Thanks for starting this discussion.

 

I'm confused that you're comparing carving and pivoting. Pivoting is a skill. Edging is a skill. Carving is a tactical approach. It would make more sense to me to compare pivoting and edging. 

 

Another thought for you: do your femurs rotate in the hip socket when you carve? In CSIA, that's pivoting. i.e. any turning of the femur in the hip socket. Edging is simply tipping skis on edge and off edge. 

 

Why not just use CSIA's definition of steering, where steering is the blend of edging and pivoting?

 

I'm also having difficulty understanding the "good skiing" bubble. We don't know enough about what you mean by any of the other bubbles to pass judgment with a "good skiing" bubble. For example, is the pivoting bubble supposed to represent the amount of pivoting applied? Does it describe the ability of skiers to use pivoting?  

 

Lastly, how does good skiing exist without edging or pivoting? Are you counting traversing on flats as good skiing? (Really, do you consider any time with skis on snow to be skiing?) Are you including aerials? Outside of aerials, I have trouble seeing how good skiing involves no edging or pivoting. (And even then arguably you've moved away from good skiing and into good gymnastics territory...)


Edited by Metaphor_ - 12/21/14 at 9:15am
post #19 of 26

Metaphor, if you keep body movements separate from ski-snow interactions, this thread will make more sense.

Femur rotation is a body movement.  Edging/tipping skis is a body movement.  

But those circles up there are not about body movements.

post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Metaphor, if you keep body movements separate from ski-snow interactions, this thread will make more sense.

Femur rotation is a body movement.  Edging/tipping skis is a body movement.  

But those circles up there are not about body movements.

 

So then the diagram isn't actually skiing skills - it's turn types.

post #21 of 26

My diagram would look something more like this.  I did not use the word "steering" because its too open to different interpretations.  

 

 

 

For a lot of people the word "steering" automatically means rotationally influencing the ski through muscle power.  For other people, the skis can be "steered" through other means such as edging and pressure skills.  In my view arc'd turns can be steered also, without rotary, without skidding.  So to me the word steering, depends.

 

Still other people would blend all three skills (rotary, edging, pressure) to effect turn shape steering.  I tend to be in this last group of people in my thinking, however my thoughts are that as you are closer to the carving end of the spectrum, there will be more edging and less (or none) rotary, and at the skidding end of the spectrum, you may or may not have a lot of rotary, depends on how you do it or who you talk to, and probably not very much edging, though finessing low edge angles is a high degree of edging skill.


Edited by borntoski683 - 12/21/14 at 11:15am
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

My diagram would look something more like this.  I did not use the word "steering" because its too open to different interpretations.  

 

 

 

 

The KISS Principle at work  Good Job BTS

post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

My diagram would look something more like this.  I did not use the word "steering" because its too open to different interpretations.  





For a lot of people the word "steering" automatically means rotationally influencing the ski through muscle power.  For other people, the skis can be "steered" through other means such as edging and pressure skills.  In my view arc'd turns can be steered also, without rotary, without skidding.  So to me the word steering, depends.

Still other people would blend all three skills (rotary, edging, pressure) to effect turn shape steering.  I tend to be in this last group of people in my thinking, however my thoughts are that as you are closer to the carving end of the spectrum, there will be more edging and less (or none) rotary, and at the skidding end of the spectrum, you may or may not have a lot of rotary, depends on how you do it or who you talk to, and probably not very much edging, though finessing low edge angles is a high degree of edging skill.
Dingdingding! biggrin.gif I like the diagram, BTS. Nice and simple. And it makes sense. Thumbsup
post #24 of 26
Thread Starter 

BTS, for the way you define the terms, I think your drawing works well.  Thumbs Up

post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

BTS, for the way you define the terms, I think your drawing works well.  Thumbs Up

I think BTS's definitions are the commonly accepted definitions. The definitions Rick is using are ones somewhat more unique to him, which would make sense when somebody is running their own business. A unique approach is something you can sell. Doesn't make it better or more useful. Just unique. 

post #26 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

I think BTS's definitions are the commonly accepted definitions. The definitions Rick is using are ones somewhat more unique to him, which would make sense when somebody is running their own business. A unique approach is something you can sell. Doesn't make it better or more useful. Just unique. 

Carving not including skidding is actually the classic definition, freeski919.   It's what it referred to way back when we racer folk were for the most part the only  ones commonly doing it.  BTS's more tolerant definition is actually a more recent morph.  I'm just an old geezer, stuck in the past.  

 

 

 

Seriously, though, I haven't changed with the times, because I still find the old black and white definition much more useful for teaching.  The blending BTS is speaking of all happens in my steering circle, by managing the skid angle and edge angle.


Edited by Rick - 12/22/14 at 5:38pm
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