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Poll: harnesses for kids - good or bad? - Page 3

Poll Results: Harnesses for kids: good or bad?

 
  • 4% (2)
    Very good
  • 15% (7)
    Good
  • 22% (10)
    Neutral
  • 38% (17)
    Bad
  • 15% (7)
    Very bad
  • 2% (1)
    Don't know
44 Total Votes  
post #61 of 74
Leashed or unleashed, young kids simply do not understand consequences or cause and effect. So that argument is moot.
5 years old seems a bit old for a leash.
post #62 of 74
And really, which is worse, a tether or a kid that suddenly loses it and becomes a loose cannonball hurtling down the slope? They get like that, you know, they're in control making lots of turns and everything then suddenly one day... they aren't. I'd think you'd rather I pulled the kid out of your path than let her suddenly jet into it because, whoa, cool tree over here I have to check out, or I want to use THIS LIFT, not THAT lift this time. It's safety not only for the kid, but other skiers. Young kids can be like puppies. Especially boys, I hear.

I do think if a kid is older they may not need a leash, plus I'm sure they'd have a fit.
post #63 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post
 


jzamp, Thread drift.....

 

where do you ski now?  general location, I don;t care specifically.  and have you ever skied a LOT of days in some of the crowded eastern areas?  I mean a lot like over say 30 to 50 days a year?  I can actually see in my minds eye getting taken out 6 times in a season at some of them. My last girlfriend gets taken out at east once a season while teaching at one very small and one not so small area, sometimes by a student but not always,  she teaches probably 50 days a season overall.  I'm not sure but I'll bet she has had a multiple hit year too.

 

My second shift this season, which was at night, I came REALLY close to getting hit twice in a bright red jacket with a white cross on the back.....and got sworn at both times (to my embarassment, I have to admit one case I did stop in a bad spot....my fault entirely and I should know better) the other time I "managed" (radio traffic is faster that the fastest guest) to get on the same chair back up hill and had a nice heart to heart conversation with the kid, whether it had any effect remains to be seen, I know the kid we'll see.

 

Eastern crowds.....as an example I'll cite Hunter in the catskills.  just above the base is this 15 acre ish  expanse that has easily 10 different entrances and its a free for all to navigate.  I don;t use the word hate often, but I actually hate to ski at Hunter.  That's just the worst spot on the hill there are plenty of other spots.  And that is just the terrain features, dont let me get started on the clientele. Not really related to this topic but once I got told to "get off my fuc...%^$ channel" while attempting to contact another of our party for lunch plans by 2 way radio.

 

Contrast that to a couple hundred days in the west.  My worst (by far) and probably ONLY experience in the west that caused me any concern at all was at Alpine Meadows the year that philpug and trekchic got married.  First afternoon we got the "show your boarding pass and get a 1/2 day ticket" at Alpine Meadows  and conditions were generously described as eastern hardpack.  We had no crowds and really no trouble skiing the thin conditions in control, it felt a lot like home ,,,,,,,,but there was a large percentage of (the few) skiers that day that seemed on the brink of disaster.  It was head on a swivel skiing !  Squaw the following day was more or less the same conditions but the terror factor was vastly dimished.

 

The next day it snowed and snowed and snowed.  The rest of the trip there was not a hint of the anxiety of the hard snow half day at Alpine Meadows.

 

tethering a student or child there, that day at Alpine Meadows,  would be not a good idea at all.

 

Strange. I spend tons of time skiing in the east. I've skied multiple 100+ day seasons in Southern VT, 50+ day seasons in  PA, and 50+ day seasons in Northern Vermont. Many of those days spent teaching on crowded green slopes. I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually been collided with in a situation where I didn't purposely stand my ground to take a collision to protect a student. Matter of fact, I've been collided with once in all that time. 

 

So the insinuation that collisions are just something that's a normal part of skiing in the East just doesn't really fly. 

post #64 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

And really, which is worse, a tether or a kid that suddenly loses it and becomes a loose cannonball hurtling down the slope? They get like that, you know, they're in control making lots of turns and everything then suddenly one day... they aren't. I'd think you'd rather I pulled the kid out of your path than let her suddenly jet into it because, whoa, cool tree over here I have to check out, or I want to use THIS LIFT, not THAT lift this time. It's safety not only for the kid, but other skiers. Young kids can be like puppies. Especially boys, I hear.

I do think if a kid is older they may not need a leash, plus I'm sure they'd have a fit.

 

What you're describing isn't a lack of control. It's shifting attention and changing course. Something that every skier does, and every other skier should be mindful of. I change lines based on split second choices all the time. Should I be on a leash? 

post #65 of 74

<drift>

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

Strange. I spend tons of time skiing in the east. I've skied multiple 100+ day seasons in Southern VT, 50+ day seasons in  PA, and 50+ day seasons in Northern Vermont. Many of those days spent teaching on crowded green slopes. I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually been collided with in a situation where I didn't purposely stand my ground to take a collision to protect a student. Matter of fact, I've been collided with once in all that time. 

 

So the insinuation that collisions are just something that's a normal part of skiing in the East just doesn't really fly. 

 

This is pretty interesting. I wonder what factors might lead to these diverging experiences.

 

Silhouette? How big and tall are you? Tractor trailers tend to get rear-ended a lot less frequently than Nissan Versas. And when they do there is much less damage. 

 

Clothing? How bright? Betcha taxi-cab yellow X-Terras get hit less often than overcast-silver ones.

 

Official logos? Instructors and Patrollers presumably are given a wider berth than some others.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

So the insinuation that collisions are just something that's a normal part of skiing in the East just doesn't really fly. 

 

Well, it hasn't been YOUR experience. Doesn't mean others are making up their experiences or somehow "asking for it." You're being a little omniscient here, imho.

 

</drift>

post #66 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

 

This is pretty interesting. I wonder what factors might lead to these diverging experiences.

 

Silhouette? How big and tall are you? Tractor trailers tend to get rear-ended a lot less frequently than Nissan Versas. And when they do there is much less damage. 

 

Clothing? How bright? Betcha taxi-cab yellow X-Terras get hit less often than overcast-silver ones.

 

Official logos? Instructors and Patrollers presumably are given a wider berth than some others.

 

 

 

Well, it hasn't been YOUR experience. Doesn't mean others are making up their experiences or somehow "asking for it." You're being a little omniscient here, imho.

 

</drift>

 

I'm all of 5'9", so I don't exactly stick out too much. My uniforms have been pretty muted reds and blues, with one jacket being completely gray on the back with no logo on it. My personal jackets have varied from gray, tan/brown to day-glo yellow. So I don't think I'm exceptional in my individual characteristics to explain fewer collisions.

 

I'm not saying nobody has ever gotten hit. I'm saying that the insinuation that it is something that is intrinsic to the Eastern skiing experience is wrong. Not only have I hardly ever been collided with, I rarely hear about my coworkers being involved in collisions. Occasionally, yes. But regularly? Not at all. 

post #67 of 74

Just skiing along at a decent pace is one thing, playing blocker for you slow-moving kids as another.

post #68 of 74

I remember being harnessed as kid and at that time anything skiable was fair game for my parents in Austria. I was also taught between the legs and held under the arms.

 

Being a stronger skier that's the way I taught my kids and a few others and have a few comment that this is an unsafe practice (from a few instructors) because if you fall you land on your kid.  Mind you when I did that I was still on my 205's and also controlled their skis with mine teaching them weighting by push pull and follow my lead (much to the detriment of my top sheet).  Unless you are very strong in how you ski, DON"T try this as a 30 pound child can easily over power your ski and put you both at risk.  I don't care about you but the little charge under your supposed control.

 

Ghost's comment on over terrianing is very valid and I think that a lot of kids are initially taken well beyond their ability by parents who, now with kids in tow are well beyond theirs.  This also applies to those helping their friends/partners/significant others ski as well.  I have helped more than one pair of skiers get out of terrain as one can just manage on their own and the other is in well over their head.  Combined they were in trouble.

 

Consider your ability and take it down a notch or two when leading or guiding someone else.

post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

 

Strange. I spend tons of time skiing in the east. I've skied multiple 100+ day seasons in Southern VT, 50+ day seasons in  PA, and 50+ day seasons in Northern Vermont. Many of those days spent teaching on crowded green slopes. I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually been collided with in a situation where I didn't purposely stand my ground to take a collision to protect a student. Matter of fact, I've been collided with once in all that time. 

 

So the insinuation that collisions are just something that's a normal part of skiing in the East just doesn't really fly. 


You seems to be projecting something here onto what I wrote that is NOT what I said.  I was responding to jzamp  Who wondered how sibhusky could possibly get hit 6 times in a single season.  She was talking about many day seasons at an eastern area.   I used the one area I dislike BECAUSE of its design that makes me cringe to ski into the base to illustrate, I also alluded to the customer base being not a group I generally enjoy being around,,,,much too aggressive for my taste.  I've never been hit there but if I skied there more often, its a good  bet I would.....eventually.  I can choose...I choose not to ski there unless there is a compelling reason to do so.  Like a clinic or a large group I like skiing with, or the day after Thanksgiving when the owners donate some part of the ticket proceeds to the Eastern Division of NSP, an organization I've been a member of now for 23 years.

 

I never said anything close to collisions are part of the territory.   I intended to say crowds and geography have a lot to do with the possibility of more frequent collisions that our western areas....larger crowds per (you name the measure...acres?)  Narrower trails in general....I never said ski in the east and you will get run over!     Matter of fact I've been skiing the east since 1969 and I've actually been hit only once and that was probably in 1969.  I've had numerous near misses, some my fault but not many. 

 

Sounds like I've actually been in a lot fewer collisions than you...and probably skied more days in my life too.  never had a 75 day season but I have had 51 seasons.

 

Who's to say that the ex wasn't "protecting her students" as well?  All I said is that she has had that experience (collisions) at least once a year.

 

I'll ask you one question....your profile lists Blue Mnt as an area you have worked at....  Which area of the 3 listed and Waterville Valley in your profile did you feel like had the largest chance of collision? 

 

Merry Christmas.


Edited by skier_j - 12/25/14 at 10:16am
post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

And really, which is worse, a tether or a kid that suddenly loses it and becomes a loose cannonball hurtling down the slope? They get like that, you know, they're in control making lots of turns and everything then suddenly one day... they aren't. I'd think you'd rather I pulled the kid out of your path than let her suddenly jet into it because, whoa, cool tree over here I have to check out, or I want to use THIS LIFT, not THAT lift this time. It's safety not only for the kid, but other skiers. Young kids can be like puppies. Especially boys, I hear.


I do think if a kid is older they may not need a leash, plus I'm sure they'd have a fit.

What you're describing isn't a lack of control. It's shifting attention and changing course. Something that every skier does, and every other skier should be mindful of. I change lines based on split second choices all the time. Should I be on a leash? 

I'm sure that you're going to glance around to see if anyone's coming. Because to do otherwise could result with you in the sled. In any case, I'm sure you weigh more than thirty pounds and can take the hit better.
post #71 of 74

I actually agree that skiing in the East raises your chance of a collision. I know when I ski Killington in Nov and early Dec. it will be mobbed and a zoo. I was hit 3 times in one day a couple of years ago. Since I am a "Clyde" I am not overly concerned about it, unless I am really barreled into. Typically, the slopes are almost all ice, really over crowded, and have lots of people who can't control themselves in those conditions. I usually regret that I chose to ski that day, but I get my fix. I will say that the vast improvements in snow making in the East have really reduced the amount of time mountains have conditions like this anymore.

 

If this all sounds atrocious, I agree, but welcome to weekend skiing on the east coast in bad weather.


Edited by bttocs - 12/29/14 at 6:01pm
post #72 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post
 

 

 

I'll ask you one question....your profile lists Blue Mnt as an area you have worked at....  Which area of the 3 listed and Waterville Valley in your profile did you feel like had the largest chance of collision? 

 

Of all the places I worked and have skied regularly, Blue is the one that would have had the greatest potential for collision. Far less proficient skiers, far icier trails. Never had a problem, just kept aware and kept my classes out of the gun barrel. 

post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by rskornak View Post
 

Appropriateness for teaching skiing skills will certainly be debated.  What I found most valuable for my kids had nothing to do with them 'skiing', but was a huge benefit in getting them on the lifts safely using the handle and/or helping them up from a fall.  Without a harness you'll be using the collar on their jacket, etc.  My third child wore a harness until 5yrs old & could ski easily on his own when he was 4.  He kept it on purely for the handle.  Same for my 4th who's on his second year as a 4yr old.  I don't know how I'd do it w/o something to get a hold of them when needed.

 

I haven't read thru all the threads, but this post makes sense.  I take note that the preponderance of responses say that harnesses are bad. And as rskornak points out, a lot has to do within the context of how you use them. 

 

This past weekend I had a private lesson with a (small) 10 year old who was both frightened and had muscle tone like a bag of jello. His previous instructors taught him how to ski, but when it came time for him to actually do it he reverted to fear movements and was a disaster.  I had to ski backwards and stay downhill of him at all times, much like an NFL safety for fear that he would get out of control.  It would have been better for both of us had I had that safety net of a harness so that he and I would have confidence that I could prevent him from getting severely out of control.  Again, I would not use a harness with any tension on it unless necessary, but use it solely as a safety net. 

post #74 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

Of all the places I worked and have skied regularly, Blue is the one that would have had the greatest potential for collision. Far less proficient skiers, far icier trails. Never had a problem, just kept aware and kept my classes out of the gun barrel. 


That's what I expected.  I've never been to the area sibhusky originally mentioned, Camelback, but I suspect it is similar to Blue.

 

That's the only point I was trying to make.  For exactly the reasons you cited.

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