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Notes on Out of the Wrapper Tunes: new skis - Page 2

post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
 

^^^^ Really? My Blizzards have always measured 1/3. I thought. .7 is fairly extreme for a wider ski like there Cochise. 


Sorry I tend to forget that they also make skis wider than 70 underfoot :D

post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp View Post
 

Blizzard shop skis come out of the factory pre tuned at 0.7/3 they should all ski well right away.

As far as skis that are to sharp it's not the actual sharpness but the sensation transmitted up to the skier. a tune can def feel very grippy to one skier and not to another. 
Detuning is also about feel, some might like to have more progressive grip others more bite. 

I played around with a 0.5/4 tune on SL skis, one model felt great, a different one was unskiable. it all depends

 

This has not been my experience with the 6 or so pair I have bought in the last 5 years. Love the skis but not till the tune is right.

Just like all the other brands, this is how it is.

post #33 of 50

2014 -

I've gotten Junior Race skis from Elan with race tunes - nice structure, bases flat (checked with true bar) and edges set at .5/2.5.  I did not check the edges but my HS daughter said the skis skied great.  All I did was wax them.

 

I've gotten Elan cheater races skis (Ripsticks) with no structure, bases not flat (didn't bother looking at the edges) and to the shop they went.

 

2013 -

Head Jr race skis needed a tune

 

Elan Cheater SL and FIS GS (adult) race skis needed a tune.  If I remember correctly, the FIS ones had a sticker on the base stating that.  I might be remembering incorrectly.

 

2012 - 

Elan Amphibio - bases were "OK" but I got them a tune any way.

 

Once properly tuned, they all ski wonderfully.

 

Ken

post #34 of 50

I've never been on a ski that was "too sharp".  I have been on skis that were sharp enough to shave with.  I have been on skis that would cut your fingers if you grabbed them without thinking about being careful.  Those skis were sharp enough.

 

I suppose if you aren't carving pure arcs and don't want your edges to grip, they can be sharp on some surfaces, if you are wearing sloppy boots.

post #35 of 50

I will reiterate...factory tunes are "inconsistent" at best. 

post #36 of 50
Anybody know what the factory bevels are on a 2014 Nordica Steadfast?
post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmoney View Post

Anybody know what the factory bevels are on a 2014 Nordica Steadfast?

Inconsistent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

I will reiterate...factory tunes are "inconsistent" at best. 
post #38 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post


Inconsistent

 

or possibly confused...

post #39 of 50
 
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmoney View Post

Anybody know what the factory bevels are on a 2014 Nordica Steadfast?

Inconsistent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

I will reiterate...factory tunes are "inconsistent" at best. 

 

Well the answer is consistent at least.
I seriously doubt any non race ski comes with less than 1 deg base bevel. I think it's more of what factor times 1 is the base bevel? 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3 ... Plus along with inconsistent among skis it can be inconsistent along the same edge. Say it ain't so, Joe!

To sum up, the bevels are : "Inconsistent"
 

What should my ski edge bevels be?

Well...if you're asking...

Resist the urge to hunt down that seemingly one guy on the planet who knows what the "factory bevels" are for your ski. You should also squash that voice that tells you "once I find out my skis true bevels I'll finally be able to __ . I will really be the master of the mountain."


When you do finally find "that guy who knows", it's probably in a hookah parlor in Kashmir or more likely, a hashish den in Colorado. You are likely to be disappointed. First he'll make you buy another round of whatever he's smoking. Then he'll start telling you about the ski factory. You'll be fascinated. So much so, you'll barely notice when he orders the most expensive Scotch on the menu from the pretty waitress and puts it on your tab. At that point though you'll feel like Indiana Jones in a seedy bar discovering that final clue to the whereabouts of the Holy Grail.


You press on... Another round of expensive scotch be damned! You're almost there. All those days and years of not knowing the Factory Edge Bevels are about to be over. Soon you will KNOW and be free to really ski to your true potential damn it!  You'll be far  beyond all those shop techs who tortured you because they didn't know what the true factory bevels were. No more nonsense! No more ignorant techs! No more senseless replies on the internet!

There's a problem though. This guy keeps saying things like "well we try to set the machine..." Wait, what does he mean "we try.."?? Wtf!! This should not be! They either are or are not _.  Panicked, you order another round of everything. The guy is now going on about how "the machine this...", "the machine that...", and how sometimes Roberto sets it up a little funny if he's been up all night because his grandmother was sick. Then there's Heinrich who sometimes sets the machine another way after being up all night at one of those secret underground Austrian clubs... Jesus! What's going on??

This isn't good. You're moving further and further from The Grail of Factory Bevel Knowledge.  It's appearing like even if the factory guys had the answer the machines couldn't produce it! Good lord, there must be an answer! Desperate, you order yet another round, pound the table and ask yourself, "what would Indiana do?". Then a bolt of sheer inspired genius hits. I'll bet this guy knows the designer of the skis. The designer obviously knows what the bevels are supposed to be. Hah! The True Source! This is it! Screw that lousy factory with their crappy machines and distracted workers. The designer of the skis knows what the real bevels should be!

 

Now to get this guy to find out the information. You ask him if he knows the designer. He doesn't. Crap! Then he says, "But...I know Hans. He's the production manager, who will know the designer." Aha! Hans. That's it. Could he call Hans? "Well...It's Sunday morning over there. Hans doesn't really like it when I call this early..." What would it take? you ask. "hmmm...I'm going to have to give Hans a nice Christmas present..." So close to the goal, in sheer desperation you blurt out "How about a whole bottle of that Scotch??" You don't care, so close to The Grail! And a future source of knowledge to boot! So what if this seedy detective journey has cost more than a new pair of skis. You will have the answer! It's just money, but with The Knowledge you'll be able to link turns so exquisite people on the lift will turn and watch. Hah! The honeys...

 

The bottle arrives on the table.  Your guy pulls out his phone to call Hans. This is it. The moment of truth. He asks you to write down exactly the model and year of ski. Finally he gets Hans on the phone. The conversation is a mish mash of German and Italian so even if you understood one, you'd never figure out the conversation. (He's actually talking about Hans's farm and equipment, the cows, the barn, the hay, the weather forecast.) You can understand "yah.." Then he picks up the paper and reads off the model and year. A pause. More mish mash. Another pause. "yah!.." Some more and then he hangs up. So?? you ask. "Hans says they're supposed to be made at 1 degree base and 2 degree side." Aha!! The Answer!!  "But....", he says, "Hans says you can make them whatever you want. He doesn't care."

F***!!! Really??

hmmm, but 1 and 2 huh? Well now I know. The Answer is mine. No more shop tech nonsense. And Hans is just a call and some Scotch away!

 

When you leave, your guy's friend comes to the table. "How's it goin'?"

"Great! Sit down, I've got a whole bottle."

"Another one of those Factory Bevel Guys?"

"Yep! Gotta Love early season. That's three this week!"

"Who did you use, Roberto?"

"No, Hans."

"Ah...Hans..."

"Here, have another Scotch."

 

post #40 of 50
GFBK (Grail of Factory Bevel Knowledge) is now bound to become institutionalized as a frequently used acronym here.

I think often the question arises because after skiing on a ski for a year or two with no tlc to speak of, or with Russian roulette tune from local shop, people get nostalgic for the factory tune. It may have been great or not great, but it was better than no tune or bad tune, and people want to go back to what they remember (correctly) as a better experience.
post #41 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

 

I suppose if you aren't carving pure arcs and don't want your edges to grip, they can be sharp on some surfaces, if you are wearing sloppy boots.

 

That's fine for the arc, but have you considered the transition?   Especially when trying to do something quicker than an ILE/crossover? 

post #42 of 50

I've always felt that you should pick the ski based on the job (SL, GS, All Mountain, Fat etc) at hand and the tune should be based on you;  your preference and how you like to ski that tool.

 

If you go to the extreme side of skiing and tuning - WC technicians, I believe they tune the ski to the racer and not to the ski.  

 

I tune and/or get tunes based on what I like - .75/3.  I have all my skis set that way and I buy my tools based on it.

 

Ken


Edited by L&AirC - 12/27/14 at 2:25am
post #43 of 50

My Kastle FX84s out of the wrapper were pretty good. Bases flat, base edge angle 1* and consistent, except near the tail, 6-8 inches or so from the end of the contact point the base angle flattened to less than 1, so I needed to do a little work there. 

post #44 of 50

Every Stockli I owned had no issue out of the wrapper (the one FIS I owned was previously worked on).  My first SKILOGIK had an inconsistent tune that was remedied, making  a big change in hard snow performance.  The other pair (Rock Star) has a perfectly flat base and seemingly perfect tune, unusual for  117mm ski.

post #45 of 50

My experience and what my shop owner told me is the following of how they come out of factory and my impression of how they performed of what I have owned over the last few seasons:

 

Dynastar- 1Db/2Dside=excellent right out of the gate.. My speed course are now with a 3d side bevel. hold on everything like a hockey skate.

Elan SLX 1db/1ds=SLX skied very, very well out of the box. I was thinking of moving the side bevel to 3d like I usually do for my hard snow skis, but at 1D this thing rips.

Fischer 1db/3ds= always excellent except for a pair of motive84'sI had 2 seasons ago that had a horrible grabby tune out of the box, otherwise I found that they have excellent factory tunes. My old progressor 800 and my current motive c-line 80 skied beautifully right from the first turn.

Head=horrible out of the box . I have skied a TT80, a monster 78 and a peak I 78 and except for the TT80, the other 2 had to get tuned right away.

post #46 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post
 

I've always felt that you should pick the ski based on the job (SL, GS, All Mountain, Fat etc) t hand and the tune should be based on you;  your preference and how you like to ski that tool.

 

If you go to the extreme side of skiing and tuning - WC technicians, I believe they tune the ski to the racer and not to the ski.  

 

I tune and/or get tunes based on what I like - .75/3.  I have all my skis set that way and I buy my tools based on it.

 

Ken


So true.  Pick one and stay with it.

 

IMHO a good starting point is 1/3 and then go from there.

 

Me 0.5/4 and loving it.  Rest on the family 1/3.

post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

My new Atomic Automatics 117 skied great out of the wrapper with just some wax--in 18in of powder.:)

 

On TGR they brag about how long and wide their skis are (not as much as people think).

On this forum you aren't a real skier unless you're rockin' at least 4* on your side edges.

In either case it's better than what men usually brag about.

 

My Rocker 2 122 skied great out of the wrapper + detuned from fattest points towards extremities + wax in fresh pow too. Same with dull edges before a tune... same with fresh 1/2 tune. I'd be willing to bet they'd ski great in pow with perfectly rounded edges (piste might be interesting like that though... spooooooned!). 

 

My Bonafides skied fine season 1 with factory tune and edges kept clean by hand (stone + gummi). They skied better once I detuned the edges from the wides point in the tips and tails towards the extremities. They skied even better season 2 with fresh 1/3 tune and same upkeep as the season before.

 

As OG is essentially saying: Depends mightily on the ski and conditions and use. Further, I suspect it matters which batch your gear came from, which shop sold it to you, which continent you're on... and if you live in Munich whether ISPO was last week or in one week. 

post #48 of 50
I am probably guilty of not being able to discern what is a good factory tune and what skis were sub standard. My experience with ski shop tunes has been inconsistent which makes me hesitant to "risk" taking a new ski in for tuning.

I do know this much, I bought a pair of Bluehouse powder skis a number of seasons ago and they were awful. When skiing these skis , when you stopped the sensation was like somebody pulling a carpet out from underneath you and your skis would fly up in the air. Never experienced anything like that ever before.

Took them to a ski shop to have a true bar test on the bases of the skis to see if they were convex or concave but the bar they had was not wide enough. I had waxed these skis half ass as well not consistently across the width of the skis.

Anyway, I did not help the situation but these skis I believe we're very quirky . Probably very fixable but I did not know how to do it. I think the width of these were like 132 mm.

Anyway they went to a good home and I believe the new pilot fixed them.
post #49 of 50

Bought a Kastle FX 84 - brand new , but the older model - with a tip and tail hollowtech and a full camber.I skied them right away ''out of wrapper'' and only after 2 runs I knew there was something wrong with the ski. I always believed Kastle was the top of the top and come with a ''superb'' finish so you don't need an immediate tune.Anyways -went to a local tuner and he said the ski has the most ridiculous tune -- 2 base 1 side !!! Hard to believe - it was a Kastle ! Bottom-line -- one never knows , even with high end ski!

post #50 of 50


I have had nothing but great luck with Elan skis right out of the wrapper.

My SLX has 20 days on it with still the original factory tune. I just maintain it with a diamond stone and hand wax when needed. bases are still clean. Edges till hold nicely.

My 11 year old daughter skis an RCS slalom and the factory tune was 1db-1ds and she says it skis great. She likes Fischer's better for GS.

My 7 year old son is on a a junior Elan wood core 120cm race ski, I forgot the name but it is an ' RC something" a dual event ski and again 1db-1dside skis great

My wife just picked up a 165cm Speed magic (which is a female SLX) for the boiler plate days up at Cannon and it is 1db-1dside and holds like an ice skate.

I used to ski 3 days on a new ski then bring them in for a tune, but honestly there are so many hacker tuners out there, if my ski is performing when new to my satisfaction, I try to maintain the tune as long as possible and only bring them in nowadays for a stone grind when needed or if I hit a rock or something and I can't clean it up myself.

I have found that the 15 minutes I spent on my family's skis every night between ski days using diamond stones and hand waxing  myself has saved me a ton of money, increased the life of a good tune, and limited bad tune frustration.

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