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Please recommend me a ski to learn how to carve on - Page 2

post #31 of 46

I think you will learn faster by using a narrow (sub 75 mm) all mountain ski without the tip rocker.  You will have to go back a few years to find one, but being a few years old, it will be in your price range, something like a Völk  Tigershark 10, Fischer Progressor,.  An AC30 (a little wide at 80) might still work. 

post #32 of 46
If a Head at 170 would work for you, why not the Pursuit HP? Particularly for a more SL type ski. It is supposed to be very forgiving for a stiff carving ski.
post #33 of 46

"I am a 40yo 6'1" 185lb skier.  I'm looking for ease and forgiveness here.. so I don't need this to be a long-term ultra performance type of ski. I'm looking for a tool that is a means to and end."

 

Forget the super short skis.  For your size you need at least a 170 length; for versatility, around 175-180.

 

The Volkl RTM 81 and Rossi Pursuit are great carvers, but likely too demanding for what you say you want.  The others on your list are not optimized for carving.  They are more all terrain.

 

The K2 82 would be possible, as would the Volkl RTM 80 (much more user friendly than the 81) and Head Rally (76 waist).

 

Good luck and take those lessons!  Those will be much more helpful in getting you to carve than any equipment you buy!

post #34 of 46

My own experience -- and I mean this only slightly facetiously:

 

Get yourself a pair of the old, long, skinny skis.   You either carve them -- or not.   The newer skis are just too easy.   You can do whatever the heck you want with them:  slide them, carve them, twist them, whatever...

 

I went from a pair of 1980's Kastle Combis 195's to an equally aggressive pair of newer Kastle RX 168 slalom skis -- both have metal top & bottom.   Although the newer ones are aggressive skis -- I can turn them using almost any technique no matter how sloppy it is (although they want to be carved).  

 

The older, long, skinny Kastle's?   If I didn't carve them I didn't turn them.   Life was simple -- but deadly -- they gave you real incentive to learn how to carve!

 

I still chuckle when I take those new RX's into a ski shop.  I invariably hear some variation of:  "Those are race skis -- and too much for you!".  When, actually, they feel SO much easier to ski than what I had become accustomed to...   While yes, they are probably more ski than what I should be using, I like that they do whatever I tell them (for good or for bad) -- but I don't have to carve a perfect carve to turn them.  I can cheat if I have to...

post #35 of 46
Erich as an older skier who not so long ago transitioned from straight to carving skis the bit of advice I found MOST HELPFUL WAS TO OPEN THE STANCE UP...? Almost shoulder width to facilitate the roll of the ankles rather than I was trying to do and keep the skis too tight. There have been great posts on here from many more accomplished and knowledgeableskiers on improving the technique I have always found lessons to be great value and money well spent have fun and enjoy I have to wait til late June or July before my season starts here downunder! I just hope we ge a big dump to start our season off down here like the eastcoast got this year! smile.gifredface.gif
post #36 of 46

I ski the Pursuit @ 170cm. 5'10"/190#. A fun carver that will preform as you gain carving skills but still easy to learn on.  I'm thinking you will gravitate towards carving once you get the knack.  One thing to remember, You will be carrying a lot more speed.

post #37 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by XLTL View Post

If a Head at 170 would work for you, why not the Pursuit HP? Particularly for a more SL type ski. It is supposed to be very forgiving for a stiff carving ski.

 

I thought the Pursuit had a larger turn radius, but it appears to be about 16m or so. I can definitely check it out. I hope 170cm isn't too short for a 16m radius ski. I've seen some Enduro's that are even more turny, around 12-13m, too. Trying to find a good show on one of those too.

post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
 

Don't buy new gear to mask a technique issue, it will only make you inept on different terrain.

Yep. Turn radii are overrated. There are Stocklis that have radii not much larger than your 16 m but want to do SG turns, and plenty of SL's that do fine on GS turns. Take some lessons, make the ski bend, so don't get a ski that's too stiff for you, learn to change edge angles to alter your arc depth, don't just depend on carving the radius the ski gives you. 

post #39 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
 

"I am a 40yo 6'1" 185lb skier.  I'm looking for ease and forgiveness here.. so I don't need this to be a long-term ultra performance type of ski. I'm looking for a tool that is a means to and end."

 

Forget the super short skis.  For your size you need at least a 170 length; for versatility, around 175-180.

 

The Volkl RTM 81 and Rossi Pursuit are great carvers, but likely too demanding for what you say you want.  The others on your list are not optimized for carving.  They are more all terrain.

 

The K2 82 would be possible, as would the Volkl RTM 80 (much more user friendly than the 81) and Head Rally (76 waist).

 

Good luck and take those lessons!  Those will be much more helpful in getting you to carve than any equipment you buy!

 

Thank you! The search continues. I will be taking lessons, don't worry. That said, I went out today and practiced a bit. My stance was all sorts of wonky but at least i was making a little bit of progress. It felt good to make some (super mild and slow easy) arcing turns actually instead of stiff-legged skids.

 

I think I really would be well served with a dedicated frontside ski now that I understand this more and and liking the sensation from it. I think (read: hope) that it'll make me a better skier, too.

post #40 of 46

Sounds like you're on the right track.  Good luck!  If you come to Copper, let's make some turns!

post #41 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

I think you will learn faster by using a narrow (sub 75 mm) all mountain ski without the tip rocker.  You will have to go back a few years to find one, but being a few years old, it will be in your price range, something like a Völk  Tigershark 10, Fischer Progressor,.  An AC30 (a little wide at 80) might still work. 

Sweet, more suggestions. Thank you.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
 

Yep. Turn radii are overrated. There are Stocklis that have radii not much larger than your 16 m but want to do SG turns, and plenty of SL's that do fine on GS turns. Take some lessons, make the ski bend, so don't get a ski that's too stiff for you, learn to change edge angles to alter your arc depth, don't just depend on carving the radius the ski gives you. 

 

Been doing a little research on carving theory, but I'm (as usual) a bit confused again. I thought the turn radius is the maximum arc the ski will turn, but you can decrease that radius through bending the ski, or tipping it further on edge. Or, does tipping it further on edge only work for those progressive sidecut type skis?

post #42 of 46
A proper boot fit means more than buying the Ferrari. Then every ski can be a Ferrari! It's the only thing that matters!
post #43 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

I think you will learn faster by using a narrow (sub 75 mm) all mountain ski without the tip rocker.  You will have to go back a few years to find one, but being a few years old, it will be in your price range, something like a Völk  Tigershark 10, Fischer Progressor,.  An AC30 (a little wide at 80) might still work. 

Sweet, more suggestions. Thank you.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
 

Yep. Turn radii are overrated. There are Stocklis that have radii not much larger than your 16 m but want to do SG turns, and plenty of SL's that do fine on GS turns. Take some lessons, make the ski bend, so don't get a ski that's too stiff for you, learn to change edge angles to alter your arc depth, don't just depend on carving the radius the ski gives you. 

 

Been doing a little research on carving theory, but I'm (as usual) a bit confused again. I thought the turn radius is the maximum arc the ski will turn, but you can decrease that radius through bending the ski, or tipping it further on edge. Or, does tipping it further on edge only work for those progressive sidecut type skis?


On a hard surface, when you tip a ski onto its edge and press down on the centre of the ski so the whole edge engages the snow/ice, the radius of the curve that is formed by the edge is the sidecut radius times the cosine of the tipping angle.  When the ski is flat that line is the side cut radius, that's as big as it gets, but you won't turn with the ski flat, so you can't even get a clean cut as big as the side radius.  The ski will turn at large radii, but the turn won't be carved "CLEANLY".  I can make SG turns on my SL skis, and the skis won't complain, but I can feel how much more cleanly the same turns are cut on my SG skis.  About that side-cut radius: skis flex; skis twist; snow deforms; almost all skis have different curves in the front than in the back; the side-cut radius is the best fit arc that fits the ski, not an exact fit; the actual radius of the cut your ski will cleanly make, Side-cut Radius Times Cosine of tipping angle is approximately correct - for hard snow.

 

Really there dozens of skis that would work well for you.  Pay the $20 bucks to real skiers, when you see a ski on Craig's list or whatever, look up its stats.  If it is listed as good for both beginning carver and intermediate carver, has a 15 or smaller radius (13 is better) and is under 80 mm (under 70 is even better if you ski hardpack), listed as good at carving, and the price is right, buy it. 

post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

 

Really there dozens of skis that would work well for you.  Pay the $20 bucks to real skiers, when you see a ski on Craig's list or whatever, look up its stats.  If it is listed as good for both beginning carver and intermediate carver, has a 15 or smaller radius (13 is better) and is under 80 mm (under 70 is even better if you ski hardpack), listed as good at carving, and the price is right, buy it. 

If your goal is a pair of skis dedicated to learning pure carves as quickly and easily as possible, it really is that simple.

post #45 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by That dude View Post

A proper boot fit means more than buying the Ferrari. Then every ski can be a Ferrari! It's the only thing that matters!


This is one piece of advice that I took to heart a couple years back and spent about $700  for new boots at a bootfitter. They've been tweaked and punched to perfection and even have custom molded insoles. Unless you mean I should get race boots that have more of a forward lean? These boots are "all mountain".

post #46 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


On a hard surface, when you tip a ski onto its edge and press down on the centre of the ski so the whole edge engages the snow/ice, the radius of the curve that is formed by the edge is the sidecut radius times the cosine of the tipping angle.  When the ski is flat that line is the side cut radius, that's as big as it gets, but you won't turn with the ski flat, so you can't even get a clean cut as big as the side radius.  The ski will turn at large radii, but the turn won't be carved "CLEANLY".  I can make SG turns on my SL skis, and the skis won't complain, but I can feel how much more cleanly the same turns are cut on my SG skis.  About that side-cut radius: skis flex; skis twist; snow deforms; almost all skis have different curves in the front than in the back; the side-cut radius is the best fit arc that fits the ski, not an exact fit; the actual radius of the cut your ski will cleanly make, Side-cut Radius Times Cosine of tipping angle is approximately correct - for hard snow.

 

Really there dozens of skis that would work well for you.  Pay the $20 bucks to real skiers, when you see a ski on Craig's list or whatever, look up its stats.  If it is listed as good for both beginning carver and intermediate carver, has a 15 or smaller radius (13 is better) and is under 80 mm (under 70 is even better if you ski hardpack), listed as good at carving, and the price is right, buy it. 

 

Thank you again, Ghost. You've really been great in helping me sort this all out. I know it takes time out of your day to write this all out and respond so I really appreciate it. That goes for everybody in this thread, too. You guys are great!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRPufnStf View Post
 

If your goal is a pair of skis dedicated to learning pure carves as quickly and easily as possible, it really is that simple.

 

Gotta run, don't have much time this morning, but I will sign up to real skiers this weekend.

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