or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Carving on ice: tactical summary
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Carving on ice: tactical summary - Page 2

post #31 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiteebow View Post
 

   Yet another snarky comment by a "moderator"!  I find it interesting that if anyone has anything good to say about PMTS or Harald Harb-their post gets deleted. If you want to bash either (or both)-seems to be fair game.  Enough of the ad hominem attacks on geoffda. What was it about skiing technique that you disagreed with?

Moderator note: 

The teaching system referenced above is a banned topic for many reasons. One of those reasons is the arguments about it ruin the vibe. The mod policy is that any mention (good or bad) is subject to moderation. We don't like moderating non-spam posts. Because Geoff made a good faith effort to leave the names off it and a decent job of putting the equivalent translation next to what otherwise would have been considered actionable jargon and because Met did a good job of making the bulk of his reply about skiing technique. I'm going to try to let this stay up and focus instead on skiing.

 

The references to elite skiers are unfortunate. Let us instead think of the phrase "polite skier". Everyone can be a polite skier! 

post #32 of 58

The movements of skiing are nearly infinite in number, or it can feel that way when you're a beginner.  There are constantly changing conditions and angles and noises and distractions, it is almost impossible to understand the tools in the toolbox.  

 

What actually works in skiing is the movement of skiing, when the 'skier is working' the ski is not actually working; at least as designed.  

 

Thanks Metaphor_ for your best tools in the toolbox for carving on hard snow.  Seasoned skiers learn new tools all the time, unless all you do is hit the groomers at worst.  Beginners don't necessarily have the tools experienced skiers do, and the idea described in print has nothing to do with what your feet are doing when actually on the hill.  When you drill the movements into muscle memory, you can move correctly when on an icy pitch.

 

But then, geoffda pretty much sums up my philosophy on carving and skiing, except for the elite part.   I 'skied' 20 years sliding around in the back seat, everywhere.  Only after I felt how it is to move over the skis standing in balance to whatever they were doing against the terrain I truly became a skier.  Every skier is a good skier because they are a skier as compared to what I call a strong slider.  'Elite' has nothing to do with it.

 

Now my obsession is to master the art.

post #33 of 58

Now that IS the kind of response I would expect from a moderator. To the point (and polite). Thanks Rusty!

post #34 of 58
 
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

Look at Ron LeMaster's images site. You're not going to see people with narrow stances. Stance is relative. Boot gluers are extremely challenged on ice, as are pony riders. Sorry, this is an area where HH has really missed the boat.

 

Would like to mention that LeMaster likes to take such pictures of  world cup racers in extreme turns and flip them 90 degrees so it becomes clear that the bulk of the leg separation is actually vertical, not horizontal. You can see that pretty clearly in this video, at both :06 and :24, for example. FWIW.

 
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

All this ice talk is making me want to pour some scotch.

 

Have at it...

 


Edited by jc-ski - 12/8/14 at 6:49pm
post #35 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

Have at it...

 

 

Now there's a quality post.

 

:beercheer:

post #36 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Meanwhile I'm having trouble carving on boxes. What's the correct techniques.

Gotta use straight skis.

post #37 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

Would like to mention that LeMaster likes to take such pictures of  world cup racers in extreme turns and flip them 90 degrees so it becomes clear that the bulk of the leg separation is actually vertical, not horizontal. You can see that pretty clearly in this video, at both :06 and :24, for example. FWIW.

 

Perfect video - here's a screen capture from around 00:36 (unfortunately the only time when the camera gives you a clear picture of the stance width):

 

You can see that at transition, Shiffrin avoids both being boot glued or riding the horse. (Actually, this looks a bit wider than I ski at transition.) LeMaster's pictures tend to consistently show at least hip width stance at transition. Regardless of the picture angles, I always look at the transition to see the stance width rather than through the apex. (At the apex, the reason leg separation is so much bigger is because of greater vertical separation, rather than lateral.) 

post #38 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

Perfect video - here's a screen capture from around 00:36 (unfortunately the only time when the camera gives you a clear picture of the stance width):

 

You can see that at transition, Shiffrin avoids both being boot glued or riding the horse. (Actually, this looks a bit wider than I ski at transition.) LeMaster's pictures tend to consistently show at least hip width stance at transition. Regardless of the picture angles, I always look at the transition to see the stance width rather than through the apex. (At the apex, the reason leg separation is so much bigger is because of greater vertical separation, rather than lateral.) 

Ah, Metaphor...  I think if you review the video, she is most probably in the air at this point. Her left leg moves more in line with the right as she makes contact with the ground at which time her legs are pretty much hip width.  Sorry, I don't mean to take away from the point you are trying to make. 

post #39 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

Ah, Metaphor...  I think if you review the video, she is most probably in the air at this point. Her left leg moves more in line with the right as she makes contact with the ground at which time her legs are pretty much hip width.  Sorry, I don't mean to take away from the point you are trying to make. 

 

That's entirely possible since her feet are out of frame. I like that you've pointed out her legs are hip width. 

post #40 of 58

This is another capture from the same video:

It only proves that you cannot use a single frame to prove a point.

post #41 of 58

So I'm not the only person that likes hip width separation at transition but lets them come together a bit at the apex.

post #42 of 58

In transition the width is not important :D

post #43 of 58

 

I don't know call me crazy, but I see some striking similarities here:)

post #44 of 58
@Basil J
You're crazy.
post #45 of 58

This is old, width does vary, this is training, but you can see pretty clearly here,

 

post #46 of 58
Is that what ice looks like in Dumont?
post #47 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Is that what ice looks like in Dumont?

Montana. Surface was fairly soft packed powder just groomed after a heavy (dry) snowfall a few days earlier... If I'm recalling correctly. Movements are comparable though.
post #48 of 58

Maybe a little firmer here,

 

post #49 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Meanwhile I'm having trouble carving on boxes. What's the correct techniques.
Try tipping the skis on edge for good acceleration on that box.

The whole "vertical separation" classification I find odd. Sure, if it's truly the pitch causing it i could see it, but most of the time the track is just wider. If theres 10" between the skis, even if you flattened them, there's 10". That's different than 3". Why must we throw in the term "vertical separation? The fact is the arc tracks are wider at the so called vertical separation point in the turns people talk about.

This is vertical separation. The feet are vertically separated. Yeah inget one could just tip the photo sideways but that's not the world. You can't just tip an ocean and call it a waterfall. 7118.jpg
http://www.planetmountain.com/img/2/7118.jpg

Most alleged vert sep is on 25 deg slopes but space is needed for the outside leg behind the inside to get the edge angles. Why suddenly call it vertical separation?

The vertical separation term is home grown dogma, or dog poo. Lol
Perhaps I'm missing something?
Edited by Tog - 12/9/14 at 10:13am
post #50 of 58

My, I even see Mikela stepping the inside ski into the new turn sometimes instead of carving it.

A hideous error no doubt.

I finds stepping is a useful move because there isn't always time for a graceful carved entry when you have speed to burn.

post #51 of 58
@dakine
One does not simply "cleanly carve Solden"
post #52 of 58
Soelden is I believe where Bode came up with the idea of drifting one direction turn and carving the other. Too much speed to carve both.
post #53 of 58

:D

Just stirring the pot.

Smooth skiing depends on how much energy you are trying to manage and how much traction you have.

When I come to a steep, icy section I use something like old school Austrian shortswing to keep my speed manageable.

On a low gradient speed can be manged on ice while carving but when it gets steep even Ted has to throw in a few stivots.

post #54 of 58

never mind

post #55 of 58
Not a tactic, but I think it is worth mentioning how extremely important alignment and setup is on ice. If your setup is too agressive on ice so that the ski becomes edge locked before the joints align with the force, the increased force will untip the ski and it will pop out, skid , lock again etc. In other words, chatter. If the alignment is wrong in the other direction your joints and technique will suffer.
post #56 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Not a tactic, but I think it is worth mentioning how extremely important alignment and setup is on ice. If your setup is too agressive on ice so that the ski becomes edge locked before the joints align with the force, the increased force will untip the ski and it will pop out, skid , lock again etc. In other words, chatter. If the alignment is wrong in the other direction your joints and technique will suffer.


Interesting, I'll have to play with that thought/concept this season.  Thanks.

post #57 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Not a tactic, but I think it is worth mentioning how extremely important alignment and setup is on ice. If your setup is too agressive on ice so that the ski becomes edge locked before the joints align with the force, the increased force will untip the ski and it will pop out, skid , lock again etc. In other words, chatter. If the alignment is wrong in the other direction your joints and technique will suffer.


Counter-intuitive, but true.

post #58 of 58
_Metaphor, glad you enjoyed you sesh with Ricky.  I saw you all skiing around, nasty conditions weren't they.  For the elite skiers posting on this thread Rick has coached for many years including FIS level.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Carving on ice: tactical summary