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grindrite 21 Hundred iL-T patterns

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

hey guys I am trying to work out a chevron style pattern on the grindrite. anyone out there use a similar machine and have a recipe for success without grinding my stone to nothing... I have read that playing with the stone speed while its dressing can give me some cool patterns, curious if anyone has any first hand experience.

post #2 of 20

Was told by an experienced shop guy, that a crosshatch pattern was a factory tune only. Would like to hear other opinions.

post #3 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvpowderhogg01 View Post

hey guys I am trying to work out a chevron style pattern on the grindrite. anyone out there use a similar machine and have a recipe for success without grinding my stone to nothing... I have read that playing with the stone speed while its dressing can give me some cool patterns, curious if anyone has any first hand experience.


You can do a chevron on that machine by splitting the stone and running opposite cross patterns. So set it it to 30 degree angle on one side and -30 on the other and you'll get a symmetrical arrow. You can manually change the dressing speed in the parameters menu if you don't want the computer to solve the angle for you. Obviously there's no centering so you'll only get close.

I'm not sure you can adjust stone speed while dressing on that machine. If so, you could end up with some cool curving to your patterns but repeatability would be almost impossible.
post #4 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by CascadeCowboy View Post

Was told by an experienced shop guy, that a crosshatch pattern was a factory tune only. Would like to hear other opinions.


A crosshatch is absolutely not a factory tune only. Its been around as long as there have been stone grinders for skis, and is the foundation of all modern grind patterns. The only thing more basic than a simple cross hatch is a linear. A cross hatch is made by returning the dresser in the opposite direction after the first pass, which makes for 2 linears that are crossing each other, hence the name. The faster the return speed on the dresser, the more angle you'll see in the structure. This can also be manipulated with stone speed on older machines where you can't control the speed of the dresser. Some of the older Reichmann and Fontaine machines had a cluster diamond for a dresser which made pattern definition tough, but could also usually be replaced with a needle point diamond.

All modern structures are manipulations of a cross hatch through adjustments to the stone speed and dresser speed. The depth of the diamond plays a role as well. The grind that ultimately ends up on the ski can be further manipulated with feed speed, stone speed while grinding, and downward force.

I actually have an old Fontaine FSC-11 from the early 90s that I bought for almost nothing last summer and it can put out a beautiful crosshatch. It also has a stone speed control knob that can be adjusted during dressing to add some cool curve to the structures, but again, repeatability is tough.
Edited by SmoothRides - 11/30/14 at 9:41pm
post #5 of 20

I assume you are prepping the stone and ski with a mirror structure, prior to final imprint.  

 

I am not familiar with the software on your unit, but if you can plug these numbers in, you should be able to get a fine chevron with less depth.  

 

stone speed - 620

dressing bit advance - 3 @ .5/100 mm

 

A=Left  B=Center  C=Right  (Stone Description)

 

1st pass dressing speed

A-B 8mm/sec

B-C 7mm/sec

 

Stone speed - 620 rpm

dressing bit advance 0 @ .5/100 mm

 

2nd pass dressing speed

C-B 8mm/sec

B-A 7mm/sec

 

Imprint Parameters

Stone speed - 900 rpm

Feed speed - 15 m/min

 

To increase space between the bananas can be done three ways.

1.  Increase Stone rpm during dressing

2.  Increase feed speed when imprinting

3.  Decrease Stone rpm during imprinting

 

This works on my home grinder, although centering is a bit tricky.  

 

post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 

thats what I was looking for. I am going to try just setting the structurs to different angles first, then start playing around with that "recipe" as I get going and feel more confident on the machine. 
 

post #7 of 20

I have inputted this into my machine but had a really dumb question about the settings, are you just using the single diagonal lines, "X", crosshatch, or some split stone combination of patterns? 

post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 

I am not fully sure I can answer that, as I am still playing with it. I think its a pattern which will require the split pattern. I have not been able to get a true chevron yet, a simple arrow yes.. but not the chevron.. 
any chance someone that has a picture of the screen on the machine when in the structure pages?  I am struggling to figure things out here.. I even broke out the manual and still just could not get a good clean pattern I am looking for..

post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvpowderhogg01 View Post

I am not fully sure I can answer that, as I am still playing with it. I think its a pattern which will require the split pattern. I have not been able to get a true chevron yet, a simple arrow yes.. but not the chevron.. 

any chance someone that has a picture of the screen on the machine when in the structure pages?  I am struggling to figure things out here.. I even broke out the manual and still just could not get a good clean pattern I am looking for..
Ya that recipe is for an arrow or what Montana calls a chevron. Sounds like you want the thumbprint grind, which wintersteiger calls a chevron. It's a more elaborate recipe, and requires your machine be able to do computer controlled multiple point variable dressing speeds. I have a recipe for Montana, but pretty sure it wont plug into wintersteiger software.
Is this the pattern you want?
You will prolly have to get the recipe from WS, unless someone else chimes in.
post #10 of 20

Hey, here's a new video for me!  A hand scraped chevron pattern.  No grinder needed!   :cool

post #11 of 20
Chenzo is right. A Chevron is an arrow like the gas station logo. Wintersteiger calls that a wave or sine wave pattern and your machine will not do it because it cannot increase and decrease dresser speed between points while dressing. If it makes you feel any better, without proper centering it would look horrible anyways.
post #12 of 20

I'm feeling lucky.

Nubs has a new ski tech at the Nubs Technology Center and his name is Pat Duwerke.

Pat installed the Wintersetiger Mercury Shuttle machine at Nubs while working for Wintersteiger then came to work for Nubs.

I'm not easily impressed but boy does Pat know his stuff.

I let him do a complete tune on my cherished 21m skis and he nailed it.

Currently, he is putting a chevron structure on slalom skis and a broken diagonal structure on GS skis.

His take is that the chevron gives a bit better acceleration and the diagonal give a bit higher top end.

 

From the Nubs PR release...


" Professional Ski Tuner Pat Dueweke joins the Nub’s Crew Pat Dueweke brings years of ski tuning knowledge to his new role at Nub’s. As a professional Wintersteiger Ski Shuttle Mechanic and sought after race tuner, Pat’s sharp eye and hands-on experience will be an asset to all Nub’s Nob skiers and boarders. Pat installed our brand new Wintersteiger Mercury Shuttle last season and is excited about the quality tuning he is able to accomplish with this machine. Stop in the Nub’s Nob Tech Center and introduce yourself and your gear to Pat, he is sure to help you get the most out of your favorite equipment."

post #13 of 20

...your gain is our loss...unless he drives back down for Wednesday race night.

post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 

that is the pattern I want.  I may call winterstieger and see if they can give me the definitive answer, I do a broken diagnol on the gs and have been doing a more linear pattern on the slalom skis.. but lately a lot of people have been asking about that pattern and how to get and or keep it on their skis. I got pretty close just did not have it looking right. centering is a tricky process, maybe this can be cause to get an upgrade on the stone machine.. we do need it, 1 machine is not enough anymore.

post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvpowderhogg01 View Post

that is the pattern I want.  I may call winterstieger and see if they can give me the definitive answer, I do a broken diagnol on the gs and have been doing a more linear pattern on the slalom skis.. but lately a lot of people have been asking about that pattern and how to get and or keep it on their skis. I got pretty close just did not have it looking right. centering is a tricky process, maybe this can be cause to get an upgrade on the stone machine.. we do need it, 1 machine is not enough anymore.


I had that machine, and believe me I did everything you can with it. There is no way to do a wave pattern with what you have. The dresser needs to be able to speed up and slow down on the first pass, then do the opposite on the return, all the while knowing its exact position on the stone in reference to the speed changes. The only Wintersteiger manual machines that can do what you are looking for have the racing package. Sigma RS 200 or 350, Omega RS 150, 350, SBI.
post #16 of 20
I guess also the micro and race NC's, but that's a different level all together.
post #17 of 20

Well, if you run a split stone with those specs, you do get pretty tight x's, which the customers in NE wisconsin seems to like. Most around here just want to be able to SEE the structure and the work that they pay for. I'm assuming most here are actually working with racing and performance skis. 

post #18 of 20


Chevron structure from Pat at Nubs produced with the Wintersteiger Mercury Shuttle.

From Wintersteiger.

post #19 of 20

Traditionally an arrow grind was known as a chevron.  I'm told what happened is,  someone increased feed speed, on a chevron structured stone, and created the thumbprint, aka the A-grind.  It was then further refined, tested, and became proven on the world cup in the tech events.  Whoever wrote the code for WS machines, named the recipe chevron (which technically it is, but should have a different name).  Hence the below grind, is commonly known now as a chevron these days.  An operator can rename/name grind recipes fyi.

 


Edited by Chenzo - 12/14/14 at 6:14pm
post #20 of 20

I wonder if you'd ever be able to modify or even upload an entirely new OS to a wintersteiger machine... I'll have to ask my computer science/engineering friends. It would be nice to be able to update an older machine with a new OS to allow for computerized designs. 

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