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First tuning effort - results uncertain

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

Friends,

I dropped some cash late last year on a really nice Artech tuning table and all the trimmings. As it was towards the end of the season, I focused on waxing technique, and, ultimately became reasonably proficient at it. But the idea of laying cutting tools on my lovelies was a bit daunting. Read and watched vids until my eyes bled. And yesterday, went for it.

Unfortunately, I had to use active quiver skis to work on because  my "rock"skis do not have the 1/3 bevels of my active quiver skis and the guides I bought. 

The last few days of the season were rough on bases and edges. Rails and case hardened spots prompted me to immediately violate the mantra that you do not touch the base edge. But I did - hitting it with a series of Moonflex stones from 100 then 200 and 400 and 600 to address the gouges. All in a 1* base guide. It was a bit awkward using these smallish stones in a base guide, but I made my way through it, hopefully without changing the base angle. And with the hope that a Moonflex stone, even at 100, would not have the cutting power to do that. 

I then turned my attention to the side edges and went through the same progression with a 3* guide. That was an easier process. I then used an Arkansas stone at right angle to the edges to knock off any burrs, though I did not really feel any.

When all was said and done, the edges were certainly shiny and mostly smooth, though there were still some areas with a bit of railing and nibbles.

Thing is that I just can not seem to gauge how sharp the edges are. I can get finger nail trimmings from them. But I have a pair of Praxis Concepts fresh out of the wrapper, and those edges "feel" significantly sharper. Not that it is a fair fight between a professional machine and my tuning baby steps. But it is a measure for comparison.

So how can you determine, other than skiing on them how truly sharp the edges are? Finger nail? Other?

I chose  to use the diamond stones assuming that beginning with 100 grit, I could avoid more serious cutting with files, that would be dangerous in my unskilled hands at this point of the learning curve. Make sense? Or should I have gone that route if the 100 stone did not fully eliminate the railing and nibbles on the base edge. I do have a "fine" file but nothing beefier.

Also, I do not have a sidewall trimmer yet - on order. As I hit the edges, I wondered if that was impacting how much cutting I was actually doing. But when I wiped down the edges after a series of staggered passes, there was metal residue on the paper.

When  do you decide to use files to begin the process, for reasons other than changing the edge angle?

Appreciate any observations and suggestions.

D1

post #2 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post
 

Friends,

I dropped some cash late last year on a really nice Artech tuning table and all the trimmings. As it was towards the end of the season, I focused on waxing technique, and, ultimately became reasonably proficient at it. But the idea of laying cutting tools on my lovelies was a bit daunting. Read and watched vids until my eyes bled. And yesterday, went for it.

Unfortunately, I had to use active quiver skis to work on because  my "rock"skis do not have the 1/3 bevels of my active quiver skis and the guides I bought. 

The last few days of the season were rough on bases and edges. Rails and case hardened spots prompted me to immediately violate the mantra that you do not touch the base edge. But I did - hitting it with a series of Moonflex stones from 100 then 200 and 400 and 600 to address the gouges. All in a 1* base guide. It was a bit awkward using these smallish stones in a base guide, but I made my way through it, hopefully without changing the base angle. And with the hope that a Moonflex stone, even at 100, would not have the cutting power to do that. 

I then turned my attention to the side edges and went through the same progression with a 3* guide. That was an easier process. I then used an Arkansas stone at right angle to the edges to knock off any burrs, though I did not really feel any.

When all was said and done, the edges were certainly shiny and mostly smooth, though there were still some areas with a bit of railing and nibbles.

Thing is that I just can not seem to gauge how sharp the edges are. I can get finger nail trimmings from them. But I have a pair of Praxis Concepts fresh out of the wrapper, and those edges "feel" significantly sharper. Not that it is a fair fight between a professional machine and my tuning baby steps. But it is a measure for comparison.

So how can you determine, other than skiing on them how truly sharp the edges are? Finger nail? Other?

I chose  to use the diamond stones assuming that beginning with 100 grit, I could avoid more serious cutting with files, that would be dangerous in my unskilled hands at this point of the learning curve. Make sense? Or should I have gone that route if the 100 stone did not fully eliminate the railing and nibbles on the base edge. I do have a "fine" file but nothing beefier.

Also, I do not have a sidewall trimmer yet - on order. As I hit the edges, I wondered if that was impacting how much cutting I was actually doing. But when I wiped down the edges after a series of staggered passes, there was metal residue on the paper.

When  do you decide to use files to begin the process, for reasons other than changing the edge angle?

Appreciate any observations and suggestions.

D1

Sidewall, did you get sidewall material in your diamond files

 

#2, Would you explain your use of an Arkansas Stone more clearly?

 

#3, No need to get your base edge that polished. and I probably would NEVER use a 100 grit diamond on it. A 200 and 400 lightly would be OK.

 

#4 if you still have substantial nicks in the edge, a file is the only way to remove them (side edge) and even then the damage can be too significant to get completely rid of it. 

post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Sidewall, did you get sidewall material in your diamond files

 

#2, Would you explain your use of an Arkansas Stone more clearly?

 

#3, No need to get your base edge that polished. and I probably would NEVER use a 100 grit diamond on it. A 200 and 400 lightly would be OK.

 

#4 if you still have substantial nicks in the edge, a file is the only way to remove them (side edge) and even then the damage can be too significant to get completely rid of it. 

-after hitting the base and side edges, I reversed the ski with base facing way from me. Ran the Arkansas stone along the edge at right angle with about 1/3 of it showing. 

- no obvious sidewall material in the Moonflex.

- If a 100 grit Moonflex will not take defects off the base edge, is it file time? What gauge. Or is it grind time?

Thanks for your help.

D1

post #4 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post
 

-after hitting the base and side edges, I reversed the ski with base facing way from me. Ran the Arkansas stone along the edge at right angle with about 1/3 of it showing. 

- no obvious sidewall material in the Moonflex.

- If a 100 grit Moonflex will not take defects off the base edge, is it file time? What gauge. Or is it grind time?

Thanks for your help.

D1

Grind time. You can't refile your base edge without a stone grind. 

 

Arkansas stone is my final stone I use on the side edge in a file guide. 

 

Then flat against base edge freehand just to remove hanging burr.

 

You edge does not need to be absolutely 100% perfect. If you still have a 1 degree and the ski is not railed base below edges or over beveled , better to avoid and only grind 'em when you have to. 

 

Do you have a gummi stone? I prefer the blue HARD.  

 

if so, run it as lightly as possible with NO PRESSURE WHATSOEVER down the edge point once or twice and see if that does not make your edge feel sharp. 

 

also your edges will not feel sharp if at all wet or your fingers are wet.. Make sure you dry them completely beofre feeling them. 

 

I assume you are using the diamond stones wet. I use 1/2 water 1/2 denatured alcohol. 

post #5 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Grind time. You can't refile your base edge without a stone grind. 

 

Arkansas stone is my final stone I use on the side edge in a file guide. 

 

Then flat against base edge freehand just to remove hanging burr.

 

You edge does not need to be absolutely 100% perfect. If you still have a 1 degree and the ski is not railed base below edges or over beveled , better to avoid and only grind 'em when you have to. 

 

Do you have a gummi stone? I prefer the blue HARD.  

 

if so, run it as lightly as possible with NO PRESSURE WHATSOEVER down the edge point once or twice and see if that does not make your edge feel sharp. 

 

also your edges will not feel sharp if at all wet or your fingers are wet.. Make sure you dry them completely beofre feeling them. 

 

I assume you are using the diamond stones wet. I use 1/2 water 1/2 denatured alcohol. 

Appreciate the fine points.

- So when do you base file - only when you want to change the edge bevel? If so, how then do you deal with rock hardened steel or base edge gouge - grind time vs coarse file? 

- I used the Arkansas stone to trim any burr. Gummi is on order.

- Dry fingers - got it.

- Diamond stones with water - I read a post here that quoted a rep from Moonflex who said OK to use water or even dry. How do you clean those tools? I just wet them again and wiped down with a cloth.

 

Thanks again, pal.

D1

post #6 of 23

Try marking up your edges with a sharpie so they are completely black.  Then run your finest (highest grit) tool down the sidewall and see what comes off.  That sometimes gives me the feedback that I really haven't altered the sidewall (or only partially).

 

Leave the bases alone for now.

 

And congrats for taking the plunge and starting to tune your own gear!

post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post
 

Appreciate the fine points.

- So when do you base file - only when you want to change the edge bevel? Yes, and you can only increase it, can't reduce it with out a grind! If so, how then do you deal with rock hardened steel or base edge gouge - grind time vs coarse file?  I don't mess with my base edge at all after intital set and polish. I only work on side edges. I have found through experience, more chance to make things worse than improve them on the base side.

- I used the Arkansas stone to trim any burr. Gummi is on order.  Use the arkansas for Hanging burr as you did...use gummi for final no pressure edge point pass.

- Dry fingers - got it.

- Diamond stones with water - I read a post here that quoted a rep from Moonflex who said OK to use water or even dry. How do you clean those tools? I just wet them again and wiped down with a cloth.  Toothbrushand I use Hot water! 

 

Thanks again, pal.

D1

Sound like you are well on your way!  You'll love it when your skis ski as you like and you did it!!!! Thumbs Up 

post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post
 
- So when do you base file - only when you want to change the edge bevel? If so, how then do you deal with rock hardened steel or base edge gouge - grind time vs coarse file? 

 

I think we had a piece of this conversation before! :) 

post #9 of 23

The right question to ask is how little material can be removed to get the best results.

 

On the bottom you just want to cut off any high spots.  They're work hardened where rocks pull out a bit of steel, not case hardened.  "the strengthening of a metal by plastic deformation. This strengthening occurs because of dislocation movements and dislocation generation within the crystal structure of the material.*"  Use the fine stone or fine diamond file to get the high spots off, not to remove any other metal.  You'll hear your progress.  It is OK to leave small divots in the edge.  Removing all the steel to get the edge clean too often means a short life of the skis.  When the edge is gone, the ski is used up.  Doing more than just removing high spots on the bottom edge means a full bottom refinish.

 

On the sides, first remove any high spots.  Then use the finest grit tool that will get them sharp.  Darkening with ink from the felt tip marker is a good idea.  Tognar sells a hard plastic "tuning stick" that lets you test the edge by scraping shavings off better than by using a thumbnail, but you'll have to be very experienced to get the edges as sharp as a ceramic edge finisher, $1000 & up.

 

 

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening

post #10 of 23
You need to make sure you have flat bases before you tune the edges. Get a Ski Visions base flattening tool.

As said above, you only want to knock off the high spots on the base bevel so they don't scratch the iron. Don't take off base edge metal.
post #11 of 23

Many folks confuse a burred edge from a machine tune as sharper.  It's the burr that you are feeling.  It will cut.  Sharp is sharp.  It can't be any sharper.  Burred is burred and is not the same kind of sharp.  You don't need any "fancy" tune stick to tell.  Any plastic will work such as the handle of your toothbrush type wire brush (which you use to clean your stones with in solution) or a plastic pen. 

post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 Tognar sells a hard plastic "tuning stick" that lets you test the edge by scraping shavings off better than by using a thumbnail

I find it's difficult to "read" what you get out of the tuning stick. The difference between burred and sharp is too subtle for me to do it accurately every time. It also makes an awful noise, similar to nails on a chalkboard. I'd rather just use my fingernails.

post #13 of 23
The right question to ask is how little material can be removed to get the best results
 
 I usually use a progression of diamond stones to sharpen my edges, but how do you know when it is time to take a file to your edge?  How frequently do you typically sharpen with a file?  
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONedge View Post
 

 

Never on the base edge except after a stone grind. 
 
One the side edges anytime you get damage that cannot be removed with lesser means and only if tthe dmaage would really interfere with the skis performance. 
 
And anytime you wanted to change side edge bevel angles. Like  to go form a 2 to a 3 or a 3 to a 4 or take a 4 to a 3. (Yes you can increase or  reduce side edge bevel with out a stone grind)

Edited by Atomicman - 12/2/14 at 8:07pm
post #15 of 23
It can be somewhat jarring to find out that the butchered metal gouges in one's edges are not coming out. Yes, you may be stuck with a mini Grand Canyon on your edge. This is rather shocking to new tuners. Shops endlessly feeding machines skis to make the bases and sides look new after gouges have spoiled you. This is what people have come to expect- skis back from the shop nearly blemish free. It is amazing what can be done.

The downside of all that is the cost to do it, but far worse is the irreversible damage being done to the skis. They are just taking material away to get a point below the gouge if possible, or take as much of it as possible without going crazy. That to get the ski to look perfect when you pick it up. The price of perfection is your skis are dissappearing.

They can easily be near used up in 1-2 seasons. What does that mean? The side edges are so thin they cant be machine ffinished anymore and will get totally destroyed in an impact. The bases are so thin that you see these strange puzzle patterns of bumps under the ptex along the edge. Looking closer, in one spot you see...metal!! Yep that's the part of the edge material thats glued to the core of the ski. That ski is done. No edge, no base. You could get away with spring skiing maybe if you don't hammer the edge. Powder- uummm powder. Yeh it'll be ok in untracked and cut up. But it's toast. No resale value over say 50$ and only at the right time/place.

It's a horror show.
Then comes the stages of grief:

Anger: pissed off at we who tell you, the shop (deserved, but you're complicit), ski industry.

Denial: Bah.. My ski isnt really trashed! I'll be careful. It'll be ok. It still works. There's some life to it! I'll sell it. It was a good ski, someone will want it... ( no, it's toast. No one will want it unless they don't know what they're looking at, yeah, 2 years ago it was a $700 pair of skis, now they're worthless.)

Bargaining: If only i hadn't gone to that shop... If only i hadn't needed a pristine looking ski. If only i had listened to those wackos at epicski...If someone buys this great ski off me i'll never do it again.

Depression: Skiing is worse than owning a boat.... (This stage is too depressing to talk about so we move on.)

Acceptance: Well i trashed the ski. Wore it out. Hey, I've got a story anyway. Maybe some cred? How many people wear a ski out that quickly? I won't get the grinds from now on every time i have a little gouge.

Since this is a family site and we like to give people hope, here's the solution:

One doesn't need a pristine ski if you're not racing. Dings and gouges can be cleaned up but there may be a mark for a long time. Possibly for the life of the ski. Deal with it. Either don't hit stuff or realize you can ski just fine with a non pristine ski. It can still be sharp for most of the edge Unfortunately, the gouge will be in the most important part probably- underfoot. Yeah, depressing. Too bad.
Rails? - get a dedicated park ski.

If you learn just one thing from this tuning thread it should be- your skis don't have to be pristine but can still be well tuned. Then you can even have others tune them and you'll still be better off and haven't had to do anything but restrain a shop. That's not always that easy. If that's the case find another shop.
Happy tuning!
Edited by Tog - 12/2/14 at 6:39pm
post #16 of 23

Now THAT'S a great post

post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

It can be somewhat jarring to find out that the butchered metal gouges in one's edges are not coming out. Yes, you may be stuck with a mini Grand Canyon on your edge. This is rather shocking to new tuners. Shops endlessly feeding machines skis to make the bases and sides look new after gouges have spoiled you. This is what people have come to expect- skis back from the shop nearly blemish free. It is amazing what can be done.

The downside of all that is the cost to do it, but far worse is the irreversible damage being done to the skis. They are just taking material away to get a point below the gouge if possible, or take as much of it as possible without going crazy. That to get the ski to look perfect when you pick it up. The price of perfection is your skis are dissappearing.

They can easily be near used up in 1-2 seasons. What does that mean? The side edges are so thin they cant be machine ffinished anymore and will get totally destroyed in an impact. The bases are so thin that you see these strange puzzle patterns of bumps under the ptex along the edge. Looking closer, in one spot you see...metal!! Yep that's the part of the edge material thats glued to the core of the ski. That ski is done. No edge, no base. You could get away with spring skiing maybe if you don't hammer the edge. Powder- uummm powder. Yeh it'll be ok in untracked and cut up. But it's toast. No resale value over say 50$ and only at the right time/place.

It's a horror show.
Then comes the stages of grief:

Anger: pissed off at we who tell you, the shop (deserved, but you're complicit), ski industry.

Denial: Bah.. My ski isnt really trashed! I'll be careful. It'll be ok. It still works. There's some life to it! I'll sell it. It was a good ski, someone will want it... ( no, it's toast. No one will want it unless they don't know what they're looking at, yeah, 2 years ago it was a $700 pair of skis, now they're worthless.)

Bargaining: If only i hadn't gone to that shop... If only i hadn't needed a pristine looking ski. If only i had listened to those wackos at epicski...If someone buys this great ski off me i'll never do it again.

Depression: Skiing is worse than owning a boat.... (This stage is too depressing to talk about so we move on.)

Acceptance: Well i trashed the ski. Wore it out. Hey, I've got a story anyway. Maybe some cred? How many people wear a ski out that quickly? I won't get the grinds from now on every time i have a little gouge.

Since this is a family site and we like to give people hope, here's the solution:

One doesn't need a pristine ski if you're not racing. Dings and gouges can be cleaned up but there may be a mark for a long time. Possibly for the life of the ski. Deal with it. Either don't hit stuff or realize you can ski just fine with a non pristine ski. It can still be sharp for most of the edge Unfortunately, the gouge will be in the most important part probably- underfoot. Yeah, depressing. Too bad.
Rails? - get a dedicated park ski.

If you learn just one thing from this tuning thread it should be- your skis don't have to be pristine but can still be well tuned. Then you can even have others tune them and you'll still be better off and haven't had to do anything but restrain a shop. That's not always that easy. If that's the case find another shop.
Happy tuning!

Amen.  I have lots of very old skis.  Why?  Because I never let a machine touch them.  I never do any base repair unless it absolutely needs it. 

post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

The downside of all that is the cost to do it, but far worse is the irreversible damage being done to the skis. They are just taking material away to get a point below the gouge if possible, or take as much of it as possible without going crazy. That to get the ski to look perfect when you pick it up. The price of perfection is your skis are dissappearing.

 

Yeah, I am an indirect victim of this phenomenon. Bought a pair of GS skis on eBay a year ago last spring. Price was reasonable. They had belonged to a serious race kid and were her race-day skis. They were immaculate top and bottom. Looked like they had been skied on about six times. I was ecstatic. Until I realized that there was very little edge. WTF? I have to surmise that she had them ground down to perfectly smooth after every single race, even though they only had two runs on them. Oh the humanity! Lesson learned here: Don't buy race skis without taking a close look at edge thickness, even if everything else is perfect.

post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

 

Yeah, I am an indirect victim of this phenomenon. Bought a pair of GS skis on eBay a year ago last spring. Price was reasonable. They had belonged to a serious race kid and were her race-day skis. They were immaculate top and bottom. Looked like they had been skied on about six times. I was ecstatic. Until I realized that there was very little edge. WTF? I have to surmise that she had them ground down to perfectly smooth after every single race, even though they only had two runs on them. Oh the humanity! Lesson learned here: Don't buy race skis without taking a close look at edge thickness, even if everything else is perfect.

Ya know race stock skis have thin edges to begin with:D 

 

And to quote TOG.....       One doesn't need a pristine ski if you're not racing.   Which means you do if you are! 

post #20 of 23

I have a few pairs that have race edges now.  They are like 12 years old.  Super fast on edge.  They still have a few more years to go though. 

post #21 of 23
Thanks for all the valuable info!  I was under the misnomer that you needed to use a file every so often if you wanted to keep your edges super sharp.  It sounds "less is best" for the typical non race tuner.  
post #22 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post


Ya know race stock skis have thin edges to begin with:D  

And to quote TOG.....       One doesn't need a pristine ski if you're not racing.   Which means you do if you are! 

Except at the level we're talking about - beer leagues and some junior levels, skis with some minor gouges in the base but well waxed and prepped are going to be faster than a newly ground ski waxed once. Aman, how much do you wax/brush after a new grind before "race ready"?

A gouge in the ptex underfoot along an edge you will feel on firmish snow. Especially manmade snow or that weird damp packed powder that gets polished from skis and boards compressing and sliding. The goige can make the ski most annoying to ski as it's oddly grabby and the only way around is to get up on edge quickly. Also, put skis on so the gouge is the outside edge not the inside.

One just has to learn to live with it and decide what level of risk one is willing to take skking and live with possible damage. You never really get comfortable when tuning skis and seeing damage. What are you willing to accept bcause it modifies how and where you ski. I find the mist annoying things are little rocks frozen in ice getting off the lift that you can't avoid or didn't see till too late.

When you do start tuning your own skis you'll start noticing things like footrests on chairs. If there's no rubber there dont put your skis on them. It's not complicated, the steel bar will dull and round your edge. You're dulling the most important part- underfoot. If you have a binding you cqn donit with, put your tips up and rest the bar underneath the tailpiece. Look tailpieces tend not to work with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONedge View Post

Thanks for all the valuable info!  I was under the misnomer that you needed to use a file every so often if you wanted to keep your edges super sharp.  It sounds "less is best" for the typical non race tuner.

There are too many variables in your post to answer. A file may still be needed. A diamond stone is not going to make a rounded edge sharp.

It's not magic, one is just shaping a piece of metal to a point which is a long straight edge. You're limited to removing, abrading, polishing one side - the side edge, because to remove the base edge greatly changes the charateristics of a ski. It makes the base edge bevel too great which makes the ski less reponsive. (There may be reasons you want to do this but you wouldnt need to read this in he first Place)

There's plenty of room to argue what technique is best or what should be done to achieve that. Just ask yourself "what am i doing?" - to the metal or plastic. There's way too much voodoo involved with people tuning skis. Sadly, much from people who've been tuning for years. "i learned that from so and so" and are stuck in their ways.

A good thing to get is a 10x magnifier. You can use it to actually look at an edge. I rember at on Epicski Academy doing a quick tune on someone's skis. We couldn't get the edge at the front sharp. Wtf? Taking a look at it with a magnifier, it became obvious that some well-meaning (?) but clueless shop(?) had taken a file and dulled the edge at a 45deg angle. There was no way to get it sharp without a big grind of base and side. it's hard to tell someone their ski is somewhat ruined.
Edited by Tog - 12/3/14 at 7:08am
post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Except at the level we're talking about - beer leagues and some junior levels, skis with some minor gouges in the base but well waxed and prepped are going to be faster than a newly ground ski waxed once. Aman, how much do you wax/brush after a new grind before "race ready"?

A gouge in the ptex underfoot along an edge you will feel on firmish snow. Especially manmade snow or that weird damp packed powder that gets polished from skis and boards compressing and sliding. The goige can make the ski most annoying to ski as it's oddly grabby and the only way around is to get up on edge quickly. Also, put skis on so the gouge is the outside edge not the inside.

One just has to learn to live with it and decide what level of risk one is willing to take skking and live with possible damage. You never really get comfortable when tuning skis and seeing damage. What are you willing to accept bcause it modifies how and where you ski. I find the mist annoying things are little rocks frozen in ice getting off the lift that you can't avoid or didn't see till too late.

When you do start tuning your own skis you'll start noticing things like footrests on chairs. If there's no rubber there dont put your skis on them. It's not complicated, the steel bar will dull and round your edge. You're dulling the most important part- underfoot. If you have a binding you cqn donit with, put your tips up and rest the bar underneath the tailpiece. Look tailpieces tend not to work with that.
There are too many variables in your post to answer. A file may still be needed. A diamond stone is not going to make a rounded edge sharp.

It's not magic, one is just shaping a piece of metal to a point which is a long straight edge. You're limited to removing, abrading, polishing one side - the side edge, because to remove the base edge greatly changes the charateristics of a ski. It makes the base edge bevel too great which makes the ski less reponsive. (There may be reasons you want to do this but you wouldnt need to read this in he first Place)

There's plenty of room to argue what technique is best or what should be done to achieve that. Just ask yourself "what am i doing?" - to the metal or plastic. There's way too much voodoo involved with people tuning skis. Sadly, much from people who've been tuning for years. "i learned that from so and so" and are stuck in their ways.

A good thing to get is a 10x magnifier. You can use it to actually look at an edge. I rember at on Epicski Academy doing a quick tune on someone's skis. We couldn't get the edge at the front sharp. Wtf? Taking a look at it with a magnifier, it became obvious that some well-meaning (?) but clueless shop(?) had taken a file and dulled the edge at a 45deg angle. There was no way to get it sharp without a big grind of base and side. it's hard to tell someone their ski is somewhat ruined.

:beercheer:

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