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Transitions: An (im)Balancing Act - Page 24

post #691 of 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

 

if you were in a motorcycle cage, some force would become fairly constant from the centripetal force of going around and around the cage.  If you were sitting on a scale on top of the motorcycle seat, that force might register 3 G's or whatever, but it would stay basically the same.  If you tried to push down on the scale in some way you would not be able to increase it beyond that with pushing effort, other then the very briefest impulse which would ultimately result in a slight loss of pressure and then back to stable 3G.

 

Same in Ski turns, its not any different.  Pushing yourself can't be sustained...

 

The perpetual turn (as long as the gas holds out) for the biker in the cage provides a continuously available platform to push against. Since we're skiing downhill using gravity for the most part for locomotion there will be a reduction in force at turn release, and at some point around that time the platform will become temporarily unavailable. What I took away from the McNichol vid was that  by staying heavy at turn release - keeping pressure on one or both skis, whether you focus on the old outside/new inside ski or try to get early onto the old inside/new outside ski - you can momentarily extend the availability of the platform and use it to help keep/move the upper body forward as the new edges start to engage and you move into the new turn. With a push, as an easy way to think of it. Stay heavy at that moment, don't get light just yet. (Basically restating what walkuphill said in post #672 above.)

 

I think there is a place in a lot of skiing for letting turns just happen organically through a smoothly coordinated series of movements. I think there is also a place where specific active inputs and timing adjustments make sense and are reasonable and effective. Regardless, in my own way I've experienced both in my own skiing. I also see evidence of both in lots of World Cup skiing.

post #692 of 708

pushing yourself down the hill doesn't gain speed

post #693 of 708

jc you still don't get it.  I don't have time to explain it again.  I reccomend a good physics book

post #694 of 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

pushing yourself down the hill doesn't gain speed


We will have to agree to disagree. Isac and I agree that the sum of the forces is equal to the change in momentum. 

post #695 of 708

....................


Edited by zentune - 3/4/15 at 6:53pm
post #696 of 708

As Zenny said.  For all practical purposes if you want to go fast you have to optimize the ski/snow interaction, not pretend you can hurl your body down the hill to go fast. 

 

Ghost I think you know better.

post #697 of 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

As Zenny said.  For all practical purposes if you want to go fast you have to optimize the ski/snow interaction, not pretend you can hurl your body down the hill to go fast. 

 

Ghost I think you know better.


There is a difference between hurling yourself down the hill and increasing pressure on the uphill portion of your turns while minimizing pressure on the downhill portion of your turns.  It's a matter of degree. push versus PUSH.

post #698 of 708

 I was busy editing. Here is a more complete post...

 

Its a RoM thing. Pushing extends the legs which inhibits the tipping action of the ankles/knees, so the pusher will have to recruit the more gross pelvic region in order to facilitate edging. Often, the hips will become trapped aft and inside as a result of this...a result which can further inhibit edging and the turn will be more or less "over" before it began. 

 

  There is another type of "push" IMO and that is excessively angulating to early (prematurely applying a downward force). This can stop or even decrease the CM's inclination inside the turn and the mass begins to vault out of the turn early. Both types of push share one thing in common and that is a lack of patience.

 

  zenny


Edited by zentune - 3/4/15 at 7:03pm
post #699 of 708

Maybe if mentioning the word "push" causes too much conflicting interpretation, the emphasis on platform is what's important.  I thought the idea of "push" cropping up in McNichol's talk was really qualifying the kind of platform you have, it's the kind you can push against, rather than the kind that feels precarious and unstable.  Also, since most turns are not perfectly executed, the skier eventually will need mid-course corrections/changes.  You can make those changes more easily with/from a stable platform, or at least from a place that feels like one. 

post #700 of 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkuphill View Post
 

Maybe if mentioning the word "push" causes too much conflicting interpretation, the emphasis on platform is what's important.  I thought the idea of "push" cropping up in McNichol's talk was really qualifying the kind of platform you have, it's the kind you can push against, rather than the kind that feels precarious and unstable.  Also, since most turns are not perfectly executed, the skier eventually will need mid-course corrections/changes.  You can make those changes more easily with/from a stable platform, or at least from a place that feels like one. 

WUH,  let's follow this train of thought for a moment.  

 

The first question is:  What kinds of platform can a ski provide? In my mind there are two.

 

1. A flat platform where the main design function of the ski is to reduce friction between the ski and the surface.  

2. An edged platform where the main design function of the ski is to create a "solid" interface with the surface allowing the ski to bend.

 

Now throw in the "wildcard" ingredient...Velocity.... and answer this question:  As velocity increases,  which platform becomes more stable?

I think we know the answer to that.

 

So, the nuts and bolts of what we might be discussing here is which of the many techniques is the most efficient and effective way to achieve platform #2 and how to achieve it as early as possible following release. Many "mid course" corrections are a result of arriving at #2 late in the game. 

 

I think this is the main theme of what McNichol was eluding to and specifically to what I call "Shovel Bending" and that's ok by me.  

 

I agree that when someone reads or hears the word "push" that can conjure up a host of movement patterns, most of them producing negative or ineffective outcomes. 

 

Thanks for the thought provoking post! 

post #701 of 708

I only use the word "push" in a lesson if I'm teaching how to spray snow.  The word carries too much baggage and usually produces negative outcomes when used. Of course, I'm the instructor who avoids the word 'turn'.

 

fom

post #702 of 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 

I only use the word "push" in a lesson if I'm teaching how to spray snow.  The word carries too much baggage and usually produces negative outcomes when used. Of course, I'm the instructor who avoids the word 'turn'.

 

fom

 Wait a minute.  You avoid using "turn?"  

 Do you say go around the "corner?"

post #703 of 708

LF,

 

I and my students go left and go right. Emphasis on the go.

 

fom

post #704 of 708

That's interesting FOM.  I'm curious why you prefer to keep the word "turn" out of your lesson?  When you are trying to explain S shaped "thing-er-a-bobs" and phases of the same, what language do you use?

post #705 of 708

How about line rather than L Turn/Right Turn.  Like driving a curvy road, versus hanging a turn on a cross street.

post #706 of 708

what do you call the "thing" you are starting or finishing, or transitioning between?

post #707 of 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 

I only use the word "push" in a lesson if I'm teaching how to spray snow.  The word carries too much baggage and usually produces negative outcomes when used. Of course, I'm the instructor who avoids the word 'turn'.

 

I think you should say "circumnavigate left" and "circumnavigate right".  Whenever I turn ... it is because there is a full moon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

what do you call the "thing" you are starting or finishing, or transitioning between?

Let me guess ..... girlfriends?

post #708 of 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

what do you call the "thing" you are starting or finishing, or transitioning between?


a curve?

an arc?

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