Originally Posted by rollin
I here ya,
but its also about liking to ski the piste sides where the softer snow is as well as some bumps, and then catching an occasional good snow day, and also venturing off some. But I am starting to think that a piste (non race specific) ski will more than handle that percentage of "sort of" off piste conditions anyway. Especilly vs my old straight GS rocks which I have been and still do ski with into all that stuff anyway.
Bingo. You answered your own question. Today's All-Mountain Front oriented ski will do a ton more than your old straight GS skis, but you won't give up a thing as far as edge hold is concerned.
The problem you have is trying to catch-up for the past 20 some years of ski evolution over night. You can read all you want, you won't be able to ski some the earlier versions of shaped skis and "All Mountain" skis, so it's difficult for you to grasp what your brain is telling you and what your eyes are seeing.
One thing that jumps out at me is, for your old skis, you say you skied a level of GS ski just down from race, and you say you "not an expert but advanced", but we don't know how you skied those old straight skis. Did you carve them like a racer? or skid them around like most skiers of that era? In the old days, we often thought we were carving, when we were not, so it may be hard to answer for yourself.
You have a lot of questions in this thread so far, and answers from others seem to prompt even more questions, so I'll attempt to answer some, apologies if they've already been answered.
First, the terms All-mountain and Rocker mean a lot of different things. There is no set standard for these terms and the mfg'ers use them at will. The definition of an All-Mountain ski changes constantly, so don't get hung up on it.
Quoted: From your first post:
But what am I losing or gaining by going all mountian??
Unless your going for a race ski or a dedicated front side carver, your in the category of skis known as All-Mountain. Some are now using terms All-Mountain Front and All-Mountain Backside to split the category and better define the intended use. Since you ski mostly groomers in the east, you should stick with All-Mountain Frontside. What are you giving up? Depends on the ski, but mostly nothing. All-Mountain Front skis are amazingly versatile.
am I losing too much edge hold on piste in icy conditions?
With today's designs, mfg processes, and materials, mfg'ers are able to produce skis that are wider in the waste, yet carve and hold ice like your old GS skis. Will they be slower edge to edge? That depends, to some degree, on how you skied years ago on your straight skis. Also, even if you carved like racer on your old skis, skiing a modern ski, in a modern manor, will be faster edge to edge, everything else being equal. With today's shaped skis, skied like they are intended, there is less body movement to get the ski to carve, and they engage into a carve much sooner.
am I losing too much pop for dancing down a steep?
Depends on the ski, but most will have more pop tan your old GS skis simply because of the new side cuts. Loading up the tip is a breeze compared to the old days, just put the on edge. With the right transition, you can pop from carve to carve. Again though, it depends on the ski. If you get a backside soft ski that is intended to be slarved through powder, than no. If you want a lot of pop and dance, get a ~15m or less carver, or a beer league ( citizen ) slalom ski, but you'll need take a lesson or two to get the most out of them. But getting back to comparing Front Side carvers to All-Mountain Fronts, the over lap is huge. 84mm waist is about average for a front side carver. There are plenty of good All-Mountain front skis at 84 and 88. While the design point turning radius will be slightly larger than the Front side carver, it's still a lot smaller than you old GS skis (what were they? 23M or more ?) And, the design point turning radius is simply that, you have a range of turns with any ski. It''s easier to tighten up the turning radius of a shaped ski than an old straight ski.
am I gaining a ski to better navigate tighter moguls?
If you ski moguls like a 20 year old running the zipper line, no. They still make dedicated mogul skis and they look very much like your old skis, except maybe the old de-tuned straight slalom ski of that era. You're not looking at that category of ski, so your going to have a wider and more shaped ski for the moguls anyway. Generally speaking, the greater the turning radius the better in moguls. A softer All-Mountain ski should be better in moguls than a front side carver. But, if you're taking the slow round path, it might not matter, as long as the tails are not too wide and stiff.
am I gaining a better ski on the sides of the piste trails?
Depends on how you ski. If you're windshield washing along the edge, you want less side-cut. If you're carving short turns, edge to edge, you want a carver.
Here are some skis to look at:
Rossignol Experience 84mm waist 15.5Mr.
Elan Amphibio XTI 88mm waist 17.2 Mr
Blizzard Latigo 78mm waist 17 Mr
Blizzard Brahma 88mm waist 19Mr This ski defines the category,” “It’s as at home making short-radius turns on the steeps as it is ripping GS turns on the groomers.” Blizzard says the 88-mm-waisted Brahma has a construction designed for edge hold and stability
Rossignol Experience 88 88mm waist 16.5Mr See the overlap here? This ski is considered All-Montain Front, yet has a design point turning radius smaller than some the dedicated Front side skis.
Head Rev Pro 85
Volkl Kendo 89mm waist 22.6Mr This ski might ski most like your old GS skis, but on a wider platform. I have the older Volkl Mantra 2009-2010 model year, they are 96mm under foot and stiff, essentially a wide GS ski. I can carve short ( not slalom short ), medium, and long R turns on piste with these. But, they also excel in crud, where a GS ski will get kicked around. I have no problems in the trees or up to 15inch of powder. They are very versatile.
Anyway it's getting late, I have to go. I haven't proof read what I wrote, so I hope it makes sense. I'll try to add more tomorrow.
Edited by SCRUFFY - 12/2/14 at 5:45am