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Topple?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

Skiers:  Do you?  Don't you?  

Instructors:  Do you teach this?  How?  When?  Or why not? 

post #2 of 25

Kind of feel like I will be the lone voice crying in the wilderness on this but no I don't do it and I don't teach it. The whys behind this are found in my locker room rant from one morning last season. "I ain't got time to freaking topple". This was in the men's locker room so the word used wasn't 'freaking'.

 

fom

post #3 of 25
Thread Starter 

You said that in another post somewhere.  Thus my question.  Can't ski today.  Let's talk!

post #4 of 25

I think it depends on what the definition is. I think some interpret topple to mean topple over an already extended outside leg. In that case, no I don't use or teach that. 

If the definition is that topple is what takes the body from leaning/inclining in one direction to lean/incline in the other direction, then the answer is yes in both cases. 

 

What is your definition of topple LF?

post #5 of 25

Quick history here. I first heard topple used a few seasons ago. It came down from on high as a better word to use than 'fall', because of the negative connotations of the word fall in relation to a ski lesson. Topple has a sort of relaxed, friendlier feel to it,"I just topple into the turn, ahh.".

 

Now, personally, I have never been a fan of the "controlled fall down the hill" philosophy of skiing. I don't fall down the hill, I fly down the hill. And further, its powered flight, powered by the rockets I imagine in the soles of my boots that I use to move my body (com) around. The outcome of using these rockets is generating of forces that make gravity (the force I associate with toppling) seem pretty feeble and slow.

 

fom

post #6 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

I think it depends on what the definition is. I think some interpret topple to mean topple over an already extended outside leg. In that case, no I don't use or teach that. 

If the definition is that topple is what takes the body from leaning/inclining in one direction to lean/incline in the other direction, then the answer is yes in both cases. 

 

What is your definition of topple LF?

 

I'm happy for people to define it different ways and talk about that.  Internet discussions are inevitably going to be about word usage as much as body movements, since the medium is words here.  I don't want talk about my experiences right now this early in the thread; what I think and have experienced is probably very limited compared to this community.  

post #7 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 

Quick history here. I first heard topple used a few seasons ago. It came down from on high as a better word to use than 'fall', because of the negative connotations of the word fall in relation to a ski lesson. Topple has a sort of relaxed, friendlier feel to it,"I just topple into the turn, ahh.".

 

Now, personally, I have never been a fan of the "controlled fall down the hill" philosophy of skiing. I don't fall down the hill, I fly down the hill. And further, its powered flight, powered by the rockets I imagine in the soles of my boots that I use to move my body (com) around. The outcome of using these rockets is generating of forces that make gravity (the force I associate with toppling) seem pretty feeble and slow.

 

fom

Interesting.  So with speed, any "topple" disappears for you.  

Do you think if you slowed down (I'm not suggesting this, just thinking for the sake of discussion to understand your point better) that you -- making your turns your way -- would maybe feel it?  Are you saying that topple happens from letting go and feeling gravity's pull, but in your turns you are extending your body down the hill faster than gravity would do it?

post #8 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 

Quick history here. I first heard topple used a few seasons ago. It came down from on high as a better word to use than 'fall', because of the negative connotations of the word fall in relation to a ski lesson. Topple has a sort of relaxed, friendlier feel to it,"I just topple into the turn, ahh.".

 

Now, personally, I have never been a fan of the "controlled fall down the hill" philosophy of skiing. I don't fall down the hill, I fly down the hill. And further, its powered flight, powered by the rockets I imagine in the soles of my boots that I use to move my body (com) around. The outcome of using these rockets is generating of forces that make gravity (the force I associate with toppling) seem pretty feeble and slow.

 

fom

Interesting.  So with speed, any "topple" disappears for you.  

Do you think if you slowed down (I'm not suggesting this, just thinking for the sake of discussion to understand your point better) that you -- making your turns your way -- would maybe feel it?  Are you saying that topple happens from letting go and feeling gravity's pull, but in your turns you are extending your body down the hill faster than gravity would do it?

 

LF,

 

Even when skiing slowly I'm still flying. Maybe I'm not in the X-1 rocket plane any more but in a Ultra-lite with a glorified chainsaw engine swinging a composite prop.

 

Gravity, acts very consistently. It accelerates us in one direction (toward the center of the earth) at a constant rate. I often need to move my body in a direction (way over there) that gravity won't work for and almost always want to switch sides quicker than gravity will make the switch.

 

fom

 

PS. Kind of scary talking about physicsy stuff when Jamt is hanging around.

post #9 of 25
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post

....

PS. Kind of scary talking about physicsy stuff when Jamt is hanging around.

 

I know the feeling!   

post #10 of 25

Topple def from an online dictionary

 

verb (used without object), toppled, toppling.

1.
to fall forward, as from having too heavy a top; pitch; tumble down.
2.
to lean over or jut, as if threatening to fall.
 

verb (used with object), toppled, toppling.

3.
to cause to topple.
4.
to overthrow, as from a position of authority:
to topple the king.
post #11 of 25

Not to be confused with tipple.
When I tipple I tend to topple.

post #12 of 25

Well, I "topple over" and crash as a regular part of my skiing.  :)

 

I definitely feel a moment at the top of the turn where I am "upside down" (i.e., an uphill observer could see my ski bases).  I wouldn't say that I feel like I am "topping" into the new turn though...  "Toppling" sounds too forceful for what's actually occuring.  I'm just continuing what I (hopefully) started doing prior to transition (i.e., moving into the new turn) and that happens to lead to an "upside down" moment.

 

That it visually looks like I'm "upside down" or "topping" or however you want to describe it is just an "ummmm, ok..." moment.  I've spent lots of time doing "nothing" (to use Bob Barnes' term) where I'm practicing the "nothing" transition, so the moment of transition / toppling just sort of comes and goes without really feeling like anything special is occurring.

post #13 of 25

I've never used the word "topple" in a ski lesson.  its not clear enough for most people to know how to turn that word into effective movements.

 

Jamt summarized the discrepancy well.

 

As far as what I do, I have to ask the same question as JAMT in order to answer you.

 

What I can say is that I go out of my way to avoid pushing my CoM from the inside of one turn into the inside of the next turn.  I try to harness the forces of nature to do it.  Is that "toppling"?  what is the alternative to "toppling"?

post #14 of 25
Thread Starter 

There are several understandings of topple that I can think of.

 

Someone on Epic once said that releasing meant relaxing the old outside leg as if it had just been shot out from under you.  Then you topple.  I'm assuming this is accompanied by speed on a worthy pitch.

 

Imagine the Empire State Building skiing.  Its top can topple downhill at some point during a transition.  A crane (still a metaphor here) can lower its top in a measured way, but it can still be called a topple, can't it?  A human can do the same, with angulation following sometime afterwards.  

 

Yesterday on the WROD I watched at least two skiers start all their turns with a rotary push-off.  They projected their upper bodies, head first, downhill, rotating their upper bodies into the new turn by virtue of this projection.  Their feet/skis followed.  Their heads probably felt like they were in free-fall, that "heady" roller-coaster feeling.  I bet they were having fun.

 

I'm sure there are more.

post #15 of 25
So there is no alternative?
post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

There are several understandings of topple that I can think of.

 

Someone on Epic once said that releasing meant relaxing the old outside leg as if it had just been shot out from under you.  Then you topple.  I'm assuming this is accompanied by speed on a worthy pitch.

 

Imagine the Empire State Building skiing.  Its top can topple downhill at some point during a transition.  A crane (still a metaphor here) can lower its top in a measured way, but it can still be called a topple, can't it?  A human can do the same, with angulation following sometime afterwards.  

 

Yesterday on the WROD I watched at least two skiers start all their turns with a rotary push-off.  They projected their upper bodies, head first, downhill, rotating their upper bodies into the new turn by virtue of this projection.  Their feet/skis followed.  Their heads probably felt like they were in free-fall, that "heady" roller-coaster feeling.  I bet they were having fun.

 

I'm sure there are more.

Here's where topple just doesn't work for me. When I make a move like that I'm catapulted or flung or driven across the skis. My conception of toppling is just too sedate for this circumstance.

 

fom

post #17 of 25

I think the term vault is better for describing what happens when you relax the outside leg.

post #18 of 25
My coach and I often use "pull" as the mental cue for this feeling. Not a one size fits all approach, but we have had good luck with the approach.
post #19 of 25

I've told students that they have to embrace the feeling of plunging into the abyss sometimes.

post #20 of 25
I've never liked terms like "fall to the inside", "topple", etc., especially as a function of some prior activity, such as having the stance leg figuratively shot out from beneath you. I like to think about the "upside down" circumstance as part of the commitment to a new turn that begins near the end of the previous turn's shaping phase. I do like to use the term "allow" as in allowing the COM to move into the new turn.
post #21 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

My coach and I often use "pull" as the mental cue for this feeling. Not a one size fits all approach, but we have had good luck with the approach.


"Pull"? Can you elaborate on that? The only time I really think of pull in skiing is what I think of the shovel of the ski doing - pulling me into the turn.

post #22 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 


"Pull"? Can you elaborate on that? The only time I really think of pull in skiing is what I think of the shovel of the ski doing - pulling me into the turn.

 

Sure. We think of it as being pulled out of one turn and into another. So, if you're relaxing your outside leg to release a turn, you feel a pull out of one turn, toward the next. Some find the cue obscure, but for others (especially those generating a lot of momentum between turns) it really 'clicks' and gives a good sense of preservation of momentum between turns.

post #23 of 25

I like the concept of "pull" a lot.  It leaves a lot of room for various kinds of pressure management DIRT with different crossover outcomes.

 

I think this can also apply even when there is not a lot of momentum between turns, but its just more subtle, the pull is still there.  Even if you finish a turn all the way to a traverse and basically have no turn forces left, there is still gravity there to "pull" if we remove blockages to allow it to happen.  Thumbs Up

post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

I like the concept of "pull" a lot.  It leaves a lot of room for various kinds of pressure management DIRT with different crossover outcomes.

 

I think this can also apply even when there is not a lot of momentum between turns, but its just more subtle, the pull is still there.  Even if you finish a turn all the way to a traverse and basically have no turn forces left, there is still gravity there to "pull" if we remove blockages to allow it to happen.  Thumbs Up

 

Exactly - "allowing" is how we started using the term. We have also applied it to various counter rotated situations as well... didn't want to derail this topic though. YMMV of course... the same cues don't work for everyone unilaterally.

post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

Exactly - "allowing" is how we started using the term. We have also applied it to various counter rotated situations as well... didn't want to derail this topic though. YMMV of course... the same cues don't work for everyone unilaterally.


Ceasing to resist the "pull" of the forces generated. I like that thought.
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