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Ptex/Stainless steel glue?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
I'm going to be glueing titanium sheetmetal to the bases of an old pair of skis for sand skiing the Oregon Dunes.
Any suggestions on glue?
The current plan is extra-stength slow-cure epoxy between the Ti (which will be roughed up a bit) and a freshly belt sanded/unwaxed base.
post #2 of 25
Can't you countersink a few stainless screws in critical areas to tighten the system up?
post #3 of 25
Well you get points for insanity. I'd like to hear more about this. Where did you get the titanium and what is it? (thickness etc.) As for glue, try giving Tognar Tool works a call. www.tognar.com (I think they're in PNW)

I bet cavitation would work well for sand skiing...
post #4 of 25
More importantly, which wax are you going to use

Have fun and post some photos of the skis and the trip.
post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
Insanity? No,that would be true if it wasn't going to work at all. Something like gluing marshmallows on the bottom to improve the glide would be insane. This is just a simple delusion. "C'mon Tom, This is going to be fun and easy and cheap!" Already time to forget cheap. Had to replace my old decrepit jigsaw. Ah, an excuse to upgrade!

I'll be putting a pop-rivit in at the tip to keep the Ti from seperating. On the Ti side, it'll be just the rivet, and to spread out the forces across the topsheet, I'll use a small Ti plate with a hole to make a washer.

The Ti was found at Boeing Surplus in Kent, WA. It's 0.040 inches thick (about a millimeter), and enough to cover 4 skis weighed approximatly 5 pounds. It looks like something they used for a military contract as it's got "TIMETAL 75A MIL-T-9046J" printed on it from the foundry. With the waste from the sidecuts I'll only be able to cover one set of sticks. This stuff seems to be harder than stainless and I only get 6-8 inches of cutting before the jigsaw blade loses it's teeth. After rough cutting to shape, I use a hand file to fine tune the final shape so that it matches the ski.

Talked to both Sandboarding Magazine and Tognar and they split on what to use for glue. My plan A with epoxy, or extra strength 3M 90 contact cement. Going to try a test using Ti scrap and a ski corpse to see which I'll use for the real thing.

For wax, Lemony Pledge seems to be the universal recomendation.
post #6 of 25
Tog -

Tognar is in Mt. Shasta, CA which is in far north part of California (about 100 miles south of Oregon on I-5). Most people don't consider that the PNW (but I do).
post #7 of 25
There will be pictures?
post #8 of 25
Well I meant insanity in a good way... Damn, now I'm jealous. You're near Boeing Surplus!!
.040 Titanium! that's so rad!

For glue you might as well contact 3m directly since you can be so specific with the materials you are glueing. Perhaps you will have to invest in one of those dispenser guns for epoxy/urethane. You just squeeze the handle and it mixes in the spiral tube. These can get quite fancy...

Jig saw recommended would be the Bosch. I prefer the barrel grip. What about an angle grinder to get to shape? (see this is a good project already- you have to buy more tools)

I bet the sound of the titanium on the sand will be fabulous. Perhaps you can record it? You need good sand, not that fine dirt stuff. Maybe dirtsqueezer can help?

Ooh with titanium bases I think I could dig summer sand skiing.

Interesting story about titanium. When they were building the SR-71 at Lockheed's Skunk works it was the first (I think) plane built mostly out of titanium. They had to make pretty much everything including the screws. So they're making the panels and they're having a problem- I think they were too brittle. But not always. Sometimes they would come out just fine and sometimes they would have a problem. They went through the whole manufacturing process trying to figure out what was causing the problem. Nothing turned up, they couldn't find what was causing the difference. Finally someone started testing the water which was used during the processing. It turned out that the chlorine content of the LA water supply fluctuated by a small amount and this was causing the problem!

Ah, what a plane! dchan has seen them flying over some ski area out there when they were.

"Skunk Works" by Ben Rich ( who worked there under Kelly Johnson, then ran it. he died a few years ago) is the book. very good read...<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Tog (edited June 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #9 of 25
Thread Starter 
The new jigsaw ended up being a Porter-Cable contractor's model. Amazing the difference a blade stroke of an inch vs 1/2 inch makes. Was able to get the last 6 feet of cutting with only 3 blades and it took a quarter of the time. The hand filing to fit doesn't take very long, so I won't invest in a grinder. Ti is interesting to work with. The sparks are bright white instead of the yellow/orange of steel.
Test gluing definatly was better with epoxy, so that's what I'll be going with.
I'm taking pics as I go along with a film camera. Once the roll is done, I'll see about posting them somewhere.
Already have a place picked out in Oregon, there is an actual sandboarding park set up in Florence.
post #10 of 25
Thread Starter 
Status report: one set is ready to glue up, still filing on the 2nd ski base.
post #11 of 25
How are you dealing with the fumes from grinding and cutting? Just curious? From what I understand the fumes from working/machining Ti is toxic and one of the reasons equipment made from Ti is so expensive. (I have a Ti regulator and knife for diving)
post #12 of 25
Thread Starter 
I do the work in a well ventilated garage with a couple of fans set up. One to supply fresh air in from the back that then blows the air away from me, one to exhaust air out the door. (I used to airbrush a lot.) The few white sparks I got were from the last gasps out of a dulling jigsaw blade. Ti by itself is not toxic, so the metal filings are not a problem. There is nothing beyond the normal air-borne particulate warnings to watch out for while working with Ti, but seeing as it melts at 1668 °C (3034 °F) it's definatly a specialty item when welding is contemplated. I'm curious as to why Ti has this toxic reputation. Mayby it's the fumes from welding, but the Oxides arn't hazardous either. You're not the first to bring it up, but I can't seem to find anything to warrant worry.
post #13 of 25
could be. Maybe it's the coolants/lubricants required to machine that stuff being it's so hard to machine. I heard it was a machining issue not welding. Thanks for info and interesting topic. Can't wait to see the pictures..
post #14 of 25
When did you say you were going to try those skis on the sand?
Where's the pictures!

Oh yeah, if you already went, how was it?
post #15 of 25
I hope you wenen't using B&D blades. If so, next project, go to commercial/industrial hardware store. You can get blades that last 20X longer for just a few bucks more.
post #16 of 25
Thread Starter 
All done with the cutting. Blades wern't the problem, it was the old saw that only had a 3/8th inch throw. The contractors saw worked like a champ.
Ended up getting a grinder (a Makita 4 incher) to speed up the edge fine tuning (hand filing was taking too long).
I'll be gluing them up this weekend.
I'm taking pics of the construction along the way, but bear with me on the pics as it's analog film.
The planned dates for trying them out is sometime between Aug 17 and 27 while I'm on a vacation trip camping out in Oregon and Northern CA.
post #17 of 25
Thread Starter 
Since a few folks are interested, here's an update.
Used slow cure epoxy to give me time to line everything up wet. Put a thick layer of epoxy on both the titanium and P-tex, then used every clamping device I own (even a bench vise) to hold it together while I let the glue set up for 2 days. Put pop-rivits into the tip and tail to hopefully prevent delamination. Used the grinder and hand files to finish dressing up the edges to perfectly match the existing steel edges. Now it's off to the local ski shop to have some bindings moved around between a couple of pairs of sticks so that I'll end up with adjustable length rental bindings on the sand skis.
post #18 of 25
TomK -

There is a thin line between genius & insanity and I'm still trying figure out which side of the line you are on.
post #19 of 25
Please tell us what the guys at the shop say.
post #20 of 25
Titanium is an excellent material, but it's a BITCH to glue, that's why Volant does not use it anymore. Glues need to adhere (react chemically) to the surfaces being glued, titanium is very non-reactive...

Good luck with the project. If I would have noticed, I would have suggested etching teh metal to rough up the gluing side.

I like your kind of "insanity" TomK, tell us how it goes!

Visit me here &gt;&gt;&gt;SnoKarver
post #21 of 25
Thread Starter 
Thanks for suggesting an acid etch. That's probably more over the sanity edge than I was willing to go. I did give the glued surface of the Ti a sanding down and wipeoff just before applying the epoxy, so we'll see how they hold up.
Got a few photos ready showing a shot of the Ti and toolbench setup. Lets see if this link works. http://photomail.photoworks.com/shar...95293908320809
post #22 of 25
Anyone tried skiing sand without a titanium base? A friend just gave me two old pairs of Dynastars that I was planning on taking out to the dunes this summer or next.. But I just have regular 'ole bases, none of that high-technoschmology Titanium stuff.

post #23 of 25
schmeul, There's a few websites devoted to sandskiing (actually mostly boarders). I forget what they were...

TomK- Yah know...I think you can get some pretty colors into that titanium! This may require heat though so it's too late unless there's a chemical process. Now that'd be cool....

Sort of related: I haven't looked into this but a friend of mine swears that some high tech helicopter rotor blades are assembled with an incredible type of double stick tape! (Yeah I know...I thought he was nuts so I locked him in the closet for awhile till I was convinced he was serious...well...j/k)

Of course those are similar materials and there's no repositioning. If it's wrong the first time you're sol.
post #24 of 25
Thread Starter 
Here's a photo-album link. http://photomail.photoworks.com/SfwO...?AlbID=1608127

Went down the the Oregon dunes and chatted with the cool dude who runs Sandmaster park in Newport, and he let me know that Pledge is no longer allowed to be used as wax by the parks department. Normal soft ski wax is all they allow. He looked over my setup and wished me luck and gave me a small block of wax. For sandboards (which are MUCH smaller and more curved than a snowboard) they use a high density plastic similar to formica for thier bases. Titanium and stainless steel just haven't worked out due to the manufacturing hassles, plus the plastic they use is a little slicker on the sand. He suggested that since this was all just an experiment that I use the nearby state park to try things out and not bother with paying to use his park.

Camped out at the Honeyman State park at the north end of the Oregon Dunes where the best sandboarding runs are. The usual spots are right on a little freshwater lake and there are several chutes with ramps to launch out into the water. I wanted something a little less public for my first trial, so we hiked up to the top of a nearby dune. It's huge! The slope looked more than steep enough by skiing standards, and with my calibrated eye I'd say it was in the 30-35 degree range on the downwind side. Plenty steep enough I thought. Geared up with elbow and knee pads, put on the ski boots with the wind blowing into my face, got up, turned around and clicked into the skis. Edged up to the lip of the dune and with encouragement from the folks who had gathered, launched out onto the slope. Promptly sank 4-6 inches down into the soft and powdery sand that makes up the lee-side of the dune and slowly slid a few feet at a time, would almost come to a complete stop, then lift the skis back up out of the sand to get a few more feet of sliding. The whole 40 foot run took less than a minute. As one observer remarked "It would be faster to just roll down the hill".

Hiked back up the face and looked at the skis. One of the bases had come unglued, but was still attached by the rivets.
Tried once more on the face side of the dune (Not as steep as the lee side, but no loose sand) and after just a few feet, sand wedged between the Ti and the base and ripped the tip rivet in half, so that was that.

Checked out the chutes that the boarders use and they are a good 50-55% slope (Yes, way steeper than anything I'd ski) have packed bases with no loose sand on top, and are only 20-40 feet long. Most of them have ramps for jumping into the lake, but a couple were set up for simple stopping.

So, it was a failure. At least there were no injuries and flames, so not a disaster.
Since only the one ski delammed, I suspect I forgot to wipe the TI dust off after the roughing up just before glueing.
Had fun trying it out, and might just try it again next year unless something more interesting comes along.
Will have stick to the groomed sand though.
To do it again from scratch, I'd look for a pair of short fatties instead of long straight sticks.

Hope y'all were amused by this little trip down to the asylum.
post #25 of 25
Thread Starter 
OOps, sorry - wrong link to pics.
Here's the right one. http://photomail.photoworks.com/shar...72263809330203
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