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How do I carve without ultimately building up too much speed (and crashing!!)? - Page 4  

post #91 of 176

Three words:  comma shaped turns.  You control speed when leaving pencil line tracks by being able to tighten the arc at the bottom of the turn by aggressively and continuously increasing the edge angles of the skis until the turn is over.  In order to do that, you must use movements in transition that allow you to establish balance at the top of the turn so you can precisely control the entire arc.  When you can carve in the high C portion of the turn, you also benefit from a delayed entry into the fall line, which also helps to control speed.  Heluva is demonstrating how this works.  Skiing like that requires considerable technical skills and the ability to apply them with finesse.  Despite what it may look like, I can tell you that at no point is Heluva "standing" on his skis.  You can't park and ride and expect to control speed unless you ski a line that takes you back up the hill.  "Slow line fast" is fine as a concept I guess, but it really contributes nothing to understanding how turns like Heluva's work.  Turns like this are pure technique and very few skiers have it, let alone understand it.  I never think line when making turns like these.  I'm focused on a patient, balanced turn entry, laying them over hard at the right time and then getting off my edges.

 

To the OP, you can't control speed because you are parking on your skis and riding them.  I don't have to see you ski to know this; it is axiomatic.  Maybe you are doing it at a high level and getting big angles, but you'll never control speed until you learn how to control your skis to achieve what I'm describing.  If you are serious about learning how to do this, you are going to need coaching from somebody who understands how to accomplish this, can demonstrate it and teach it.  You may find that in the process, you will need to make significant changes to your skiing.  Trust me when I tell you that you won't figure this out on your own.

post #92 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

What I notice on your videos HeluvaSkier (I went to your YouTube channel and watched some others too) is that the flexion of the old outside ski happens before the tipping of it.

 

This is something that has come up a lot on epic, with my understanding being that many people say to tip the ski first.

 

Any thoughts on this sequence of events?

 

@SkiMangoJazz Check your PM... would create a tangent in this thread I think.

post #93 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

What I notice on your videos HeluvaSkier (I went to your YouTube channel and watched some others too) is that the flexion of the old outside ski happens before the tipping of it.

 

This is something that has come up a lot on epic, with my understanding being that many people say to tip the ski first.

 

Any thoughts on this sequence of events?

 

@SkiMangoJazz Check your PM... would create a tangent in this thread I think.


We are on page 4.  The OP's question has been more than adequately answered.  We are due for a tangent.  The mechanics of a high speed cross-under transition would make a fine one.

post #94 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

There's been some good advice in this thread today... I'm not sure if this will be helpful or not, but I thought I'd put up a visual of what some are describing. First is the run at regular speed, then at 12.5% speed. I'm told the pitch is at or just above 40 degrees. Hopefully it demonstrates some of the elements such as early engagement, slow line fast, etc. that others have mentioned.



Where is the stivot entry? I vant to know!! Where is the pivoting i ask?? Oh, it is just for wooses? Where is the turning up the hill? This is skiing completely the wrong way!!! How can you ski down the hill, man!! He should obviously NOT be slowing down!!! What??? He is??? Ahhhh, doctored the video he must have. Surely he slowed it down more than he told us!!

On a slightly less serious note, check out when the snow is spraying and where.
post #95 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by leagueofdraven View Post
 

I feel like when i'm actually carving- parallel skis and minimum spray, I end up building up ridiculous amounts of speed that I can't control. I focus a lot on keeping my core forward and pole planting to no avail. I usually 1) end up skidding and creating massive banks and spray or 2) crash. My equipment is relatively stable.  

This is an inherent problem with carving, leagueofdraven.  Carving provides less turn shape options than steering offers.  Carving also affords less speed control options.  With steered turns you can ski the same turn shape at a variety of speeds, from very slow to very fast, which one you choose being completely up to you.  Carving is restricted to only one speed per turn shape, max fast, you have no other options.  

 

Don't let anyone lead you into the misconception that carving represents good skiing, and steering is lower level skiing.  Totally not true.  Steering is a skill set that requires considerable training to master, and once you have the full package of steering skills, you'll find the entire mountain is your playground.  Carving is fun, when you feel like making fast turns, but the options in speed and line it offers is severely limited.  

 

Steering is a vastly more versatile way to turn.  With it, you can ski the line you want, at the speed you want.  You can't do that when carving.  

post #96 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
 

Good turns are not, necessarily, the same thing as "carving." "Carving"--which to many means "leaving razor-thin tracks and trying to spend all your time on locked edges"--is another intent entirely. Turning, as I've described it here, means "going where you want to go"--controlling your line precisely, with as little braking as possible. Locking your skis on edge and railing "carves" can be a lot of fun sometimes, and it will generally create a direction change, but it is not the same thing as controlling your direction precisely. 

 

 

 

Hi Bob.  I might write that slightly differently.  The part I bolded.  Carving can be done very precisely, in regards to line.  The issue is not in precision, but rather in the limited range of available turn shapes within which that precision can be exercised.  

 


Edited by Rick - 11/19/14 at 7:33pm
post #97 of 176

Hmmmm,,,, I used to have an instructor designation around here.  What's "passholder"?  Did I get Chucked?  :)

 

post #98 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 
 The issue is not in precision, but rather in the limited range of available turn shapes within which that precision can be exercised.  

 

That makes sense, aligns well with my experience, and is not something I remember anyone saying in that way before. Nice.

post #99 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Where is the stivot entry? I vant to know!! Where is the pivoting i ask?? Oh, it is just for wooses? Where is the turning up the hill? This is skiing completely the wrong way!!! How can you ski down the hill, man!! He should obviously NOT be slowing down!!! What??? He is??? Ahhhh, doctored the video he must have. Surely he slowed it down more than he told us!!

On a slightly less serious note, check out when the snow is spraying and where.

Okay, now I get JASP's point about how insidious video can be. This video is misleading to a high degree: it leads me to overlook the stivot, the uphill turn, and the two-footed skiing. I'm going to blame the bright orange helmet. His costume designer chose it to divert attention from his feet and skis.
post #100 of 176
Hey, the value of video discussion was tabled. Please leave it be SE
post #101 of 176
Best.20.minutes.of.reading.EVER!!!!
post #102 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
 

Good turns are not, necessarily, the same thing as "carving." "Carving"--which to many means "leaving razor-thin tracks and trying to spend all your time on locked edges"--is another intent entirely. Turning, as I've described it here, means "going where you want to go"--controlling your line precisely, with as little braking as possible. Locking your skis on edge and railing "carves" can be a lot of fun sometimes, and it will generally create a direction change, but it is not the same thing as controlling your direction precisely. 

 

 

 

Hi Bob.  I might write that slightly differently.  The part I bolded.  Carving can be done very precisely, in regards to line.  The issue is not in precision, but rather in the limited range of available turn shapes within which that precision can be exercised.  

 


It's also not so easy to tell when you're in the no-carve zone on the long radius side when your tearing down the hill at 40+ mph on your 13 m skis if that's all you've been skiing lately.  But if you ski the same run back to back on a pair of skis that puts those same turns in the carve zone, you will realize you really weren't carving as cleanly as you thought you were.

post #103 of 176

small question here if I may..

 

Can you not steer a carved turn or does it then become a smear or something else?

post #104 of 176

Well, there you go, a word question.  It depends on what you use the word "steer" for.

You can change the radius of your carved turn by bending the ski more.  Is that steering?  Or carving with skill?

You can end or begin a carved turn with a brief skidded section; is this steering?  Is this carving with skill?  

 

When I think and write about skiing, I restrict the word "steering" to mean all the things a skier does to get a skidding (non-carving) ski to go in the desired direction.

That leaves "carving" restricted to describing a ski that isn't skidding.

 

But this is not how many use the two words.

post #105 of 176


I was referring to leg steering

post #106 of 176

Let's hope so!  

post #107 of 176

steering is a very fuzzy concept - at the base it means to make the skis take a certain line/direction. carving is included in steering, I believe.

 

i think it's more interesting for you to think about how you achieve that:

  • shift weight aft and cause the tails to skid slightly
  • shift weight too far fore and cause the same
  • lever the tails off the snow
  • reduce the tipping angle and put the skis just under what they need to hold a firm edge

 

also, don't forget that you do not have to bend the skis at exactly "normative" for sidecut. you can bend them more or less than that by different means.

 

if you think about it, the classic steering perception as twisting the skis does not work when you are already locked in a carve, since you would just dig the edges even more into the snow... that in fact is one "tip" that I heard about carving better: push the big toe into the snow... 

 

edit/

 

the other thinng to consider is when to do this: you can do it above the fall line or under. the effects to your next turn are quite different.

post #108 of 176
Originally Posted by maroon bells View Post
 


I was referring to leg steering

If you mean manually, with muscles, turning your femurs in your hip sockets, aka femur rotation, independent leg steering, thigh steering, pointing knees to trees, etc.,,,

then this is not something you intentionally manually do to create a cleanly carved turn.  Usually.   Now I'm thinking of exceptions, but I'm not going to go into them. 

 

It's something you normally do when you are "steering" non-carving skis.  Most exaggerated version of leg steering:  pivot slips.

post #109 of 176


I see what you mean. I need to do more skiing and less thinking. It's just that I have more time for thinking and by the looks of the snow in the dolomites at the moment I might be on a walking holiday in December anyway!! :)

post #110 of 176

Here in New England it's raining.  Misery loves company.

post #111 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by maroon bells View Post
 


I see what you mean. I need to do more skiing and less thinking. It's just that I have more time for thinking and by the looks of the snow in the dolomites at the moment I might be on a walking holiday in December anyway!! :)

 

It's really hard to ski while you're posting on a ski forum. Thinking about skiing technique is fine. Instructors do it all the time. For some of us, possibly you included, it's hard to learn to ski without getting it into our brains first, then establishing the muscle memory.

post #112 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Here in New England it's raining.  Misery loves company.

 

Do I get to be miserable because I was skiing piles of powder yesterday, and today I have to work, missing all the piles of powder that were created last night? I do feel miserable, or at least cranky. It may be a slightly different quality of misery, involving smearing more than carving ... 

post #113 of 176

Well, the femurs can rotate in the hip socket during a cleanly carved turn that isn't park and ride.  Is that steering?  I personally don't think so, but some people will look for upper/lower separation that can and should occur, even during pure arcing.........as a sign of "steering".   Is that "leg steering"?  Perhaps, but if its not effecting the actual turn shape of the skis on the snow, then why use the word "steering" at all to refer to what the legs are doing in the hip socket?  

 

I don't like the term "steering" at all because it has so many different meanings floating around and the word on its own does not instruct you what to do with your body parts or anything.  And as a description about outcomes its also not very clear what is intended by the person using the word.  Then again, neither does the word "carving".  

 

So we have "carving" and "steering", both words with loosy goosy definitions that depends on who you are talking to.  Many people consider carving to be the same as "arcing", which is leaving pencil thin lines in the snow with no appreciable skidding.  It is a perception about outcome, rather than a description about movement patterns.  That is definitely not my definition, but that seems to be a very common perception of what it means to carve.  So then what does it mean to be "steering"?  Is that an outcome as well?  Are the two terms mutually exclusive?

 

If its a mutually exclusive outcome, then what is the difference between steering and carving?  Of course, since there are slightly different definitions of what it means to be carving as an outcome, then there is a grey area where some people would say the outcome is carving or brushed carving and others might call that steering simply because the edges are not arcing purely.  The people that believe that carving is the same as arcing will say anything not arc'd is steering, regardless of the body movements used to achieve it or the outcome turn shape.  I call that skidding.  "steering" then, what is that as an outcome?

 

If its not an outcome, then what specific body movement actions is the word implying?  I expect to hear 10 different explanations to that question.  

 

We could say that word means to simply "pilot" the skis on a path that is smaller or larger radius then what would happen in a park and ride pure arc sidecut ride.  Notice I used the word "pilot" instead of "steer".  The word "steer" has implications about twisting a steering wheel to adjust turning.  But in skiing we use a variety of means to adjust the turn radius.  We don't have an actual steering wheel that we can twist.  Some people believe they can twist their legs to steer more.  Others feel they can tip the skis more to make the turn tighter.  Some feel they can adjust fore-aft balance to bend the front of the ski and turn tighter, etc.  Do all of those combined movement patterns fall under the umbrella of "steering"?  Perhaps.  That is about as close as I will get to it.  Those things can happen on arcing or skidding skis, so whether the skis are arcing or not is irrelevant.  Whether the legs are twisting or not is also irrelevant, our legs are always twisting if we are maintaing good upper/lower seperation.  

 

Its a term to simply say we are making piloting adjustments that will cause the turn size to shrink beyond what happens in a purely park and ride arc.  But its not a very clear term because the term on its own does not tell you how to do it and what I don't like about the word is that the most common intuitive understanding is to twist the legs like a steering wheel, which some of us consider the least effective means to actually effect turn size change.  Unfortunately we don't possess a steering wheel, we have two skis on the bottom of our feet with sidecuts and edges and we can use all the 3 skills of edging, rotary and pressure control to effect the way they interact with the snow, which can cause them to arc or skid, and in both arcing and skidding we can influence the turn shape through these methods....... 


Edited by borntoski683 - 11/24/14 at 12:00pm
post #114 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by maroon bells View Post

small question here if I may..

 

Can you not steer a carved turn or does it then become a smear or something else?


I was referring to leg steering

Hi, maroon bells,

 

In the old days, I'm talking pre shape skis, it was an easy question.  Carving was carving, and steering was steering.  A carving ski was thought to leave a single line, tail of the ski following precisely in the track of the tip.  If there was any skid/smear in the track, intentional or otherwise, it was not carving.   It was simple, clear, cut and dry.

 

Today there are schools of thought out there that turn the simple into a murky mess of confusion.  They allow for a degree of smear in their definition of carving.  In my opinion it serves no useful purpose, beyond allowing subpar attempts at carving to be deemed successful.  I adhere to the old definition, the clear and simple one, the one that promoted the learning of high quality carving.  


Edited by Rick - 11/24/14 at 2:55pm
post #115 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

They allow for a degree of smear in their definition of carving.  In my opinion it serves no useful purpose, beyond allowing subpar attempts at carving to be deemed successful.  

 

I view things exactly the opposite as far as what represents success.  The vast majority of skiers are not actually interested in carving pure arcs, or probably shouldn't be; and in their highest modes of performance generally do not involve carving pure arcs.   99.9% of recreational skiers I see on the hill are either pivoting and skidding all over the place (very low on the carving spectrum), or parking and riding and calling themselves a carver.

 

That being said, brushing your edges while getting the benefits that come from carving is the ultimate measure of success for most recreational skiers.  So while you see these as sub-par attempts at arcing, I view it 180 degrees opposite.  Brushed carving is much more difficult then arcing, and for most skiers on the hill, if they find themselves in edge locked carves a lot, they are probably the ones performing sub-par compared to someone who can carve and brush their turns.  The OP asked about speed control and brush carving is one of the best ways to get the best of both worlds in terms of speed control.

 

Different strokes for different folks. 

post #116 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maroon bells View Post

small question here if I may..

 

Can you not steer a carved turn or does it then become a smear or something else?


I was referring to leg steering

Hi, maroon bells,

 

In the old days, I'm talking pre shape skis, it was an easy question.  Carving was carving, and steering was steering.  A carving ski was thought to leave a single line, tail of the skis following precisely in the track of the tip.  If there was any skid/smear in the track, intentional or otherwise, it was not carving.   It was simple, clear, cut and dry.

 

Today there are schools of thought out there that turn the simple into a murky mess of confusion.  They allow for a degree of smear in their definition of carving.  In my opinion it serves no useful purpose, beyond allowing subpar attempts at carving to be deemed successful.  I adhere to the old definition, the clear and simple one, the one that promoted the learning of high quality carving.  

 

Edited to remove evidence of my own poor reading comprehension

post #117 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by bounceswoosh View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maroon bells View Post

small question here if I may..

 

Can you not steer a carved turn or does it then become a smear or something else?


I was referring to leg steering

Hi, maroon bells,

 

In the old days, I'm talking pre shape skis, it was an easy question.  Carving was carving, and steering was steering.  A carving ski was thought to leave a single line, tail of the skis following precisely in the track of the tip.  If there was any skid/smear in the track, intentional or otherwise, it was not carving.   It was simple, clear, cut and dry.

 

Today there are schools of thought out there that turn the simple into a murky mess of confusion.  They allow for a degree of smear in their definition of carving.  In my opinion it serves no useful purpose, beyond allowing subpar attempts at carving to be deemed successful.  I adhere to the old definition, the clear and simple one, the one that promoted the learning of high quality carving.  

 

So, you carve down 45 degree slopes? Do tell.

 

Oops. I take my comment back as you did not say that carving was the only valid way to ski; you said that carving is carving. That's different.

post #118 of 176

Yet that black or white definition of carving is one that is not very useful for the vast majority of skiers.  Most skiers will be better served to acheive, something less then 100% pure arcing.  But to say that 99% carve purity is "not carving" because its not pure 100% arcing...well that dismisses carving as any kind of useful technique for the vast majority of skiers out there, which is a mistake.  Even the USST has defined in their materials a distinguishable difference between carving and pure arcing.

 

If people don't want to use the word carving to refer to a spectrum, then we need a new word for the more complete carving spectrum so that this concept is not lost in translation.  My view is that in the old days it was bloody hard to arc, so when new skis came out, people started arcing quite easily and created some kind of elitism about it.  But this is really a disservice since pure arcs are rarely a desirable goal for recreational skiers, yet the effects of carving (on the spectrum) are incredibly valuable and should not be lost in translation because arcers decided to unite and steal the word "carving" for that sole purpose.

post #119 of 176

Rick,

 

Get real. In the old days skis had sidecuts of 60 to 80 meters. No one except downhillers (and speed junkies like our friend ghost) were carving with that limited definition and they were only doing it on certain parts of certain courses. Right after the advent of shaped skis USST came up with several definitions of ski snow interaction the top two being Arcing, the two skinny lines in the snow thing and Carving, which was a strongly edged, bent ski tracking forward and producing what we call turn forces.

 

The word carving was attached to the two skinny lines by the general public who had been sold Carving Snake Oil by instructors for so long that when they were finally able to do it (whether well or poorly) just couldn't get enough of it. Truth be told though there were still damn few who were actually carving.

 

fom

post #120 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

I view things exactly the opposite as far as what represents success.  The vast majority of skiers are not actually interested in carving pure arcs, or probably shouldn't be; and in their highest modes of performance generally do not involve carving pure arcs.   99.9% of recreational skiers I see on the hill are either pivoting and skidding all over the place (very low on the carving spectrum), or parking and riding and calling themselves a carver.

 

That being said, brushing your edges while getting the benefits that come from carving is the ultimate measure of success for most recreational skiers.  So while you see these as sub-par attempts at arcing, I view it 180 degrees opposite.  Brushed carving is much more difficult then arcing, and for most skiers on the hill, if they find themselves in edge locked carves a lot, they are probably the ones performing sub-par compared to someone who can carve and brush their turns.  The OP asked about speed control and brush carving is one of the best ways to get the best of both worlds in terms of speed control.

 

Different strokes for different folks. 

I agree with you in the state of affairs on the slopes.  And I agree with the type of turns you describe as being a higher form than the status quo we generally see out there, and the skill required to make them, I just don't go for calling them "Brushed carves".  It's like saying "a little pregnant".  Either you are or you aren't.  The brushing means a person is skidding, steering, not carving.  But thanks for chiming in to be the voice for the new school perspective I explained existed in my post.

 

Good steering skills allow a skier to brush lots, brush little, go fast, go slow, turn super sharply, turn really big.  Way more options than carving, way more skills to learn.  High level steering skills represent the foundation turning skill set that every skier should strive to master, before they even think of learning to carve.  High level steered turns is their ticket to comfort on any terrain on the mountain.

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