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How do I carve without ultimately building up too much speed (and crashing!!)? - Page 6  

post #151 of 176

I think one aspect that is missing in the carving discussion is speed and control. I don't really care about pure arcing, carving, brushing or whatever, although I do like to make a distinction between edge-locked and not. I think it is much more important to have speed control.

A lot of people out on the hill fulfill one of the following criteria when carving:

 

-When the speed goes up the turning radius increases

-When the speed and/or slope increases edge angles decreases. 

 

If either one of these are true the carving is not under control and something in the skiing should change.

post #152 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by maroon bells View Post
 

This is what I will be working on then when I go on the 12th Dec, many thanks. I will report back (if you are interested!)

Yes, am interested in your report.  Be sure to include the turn shape variance into that training, VERY IMPORTANT.  See how sharp you can make those turns, while keeping the skid angle small.  Steering powered from leg twisting, upper body stays quiet.  

 

Have fun.

post #153 of 176
How does the upper body stay quiet in your estimation Rick?

zenny
post #154 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

  Steering powered from leg twisting, upper body stays quiet.  

 

Leg twisting is just one part Rick. Don't forget timing, edge control, fore-aft and pressure management.

post #155 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by maroon bells View Post
 

This is what I will be working on then when I go on the 12th Dec, many thanks. I will report back (if you are interested!)

 

The very small steering angle that Rick talked about is your ticket MB.  

 

Twisting is optional and in my experience will often destroy a good brushed carve because you really have to flatten a ski to be able to actually twist it into steering angle, particularly for larger steering angles.  Focus on tipping control.  

 

As JAMT pointed out, you need edge angle to slow yourself and/or to carve yourself.  Edge angles are still your friend in any kind of carving or braking.  If you create large steering angles, then the skis have to be flatter.  If you edge them more to get some carving or braking action, then they will tend to self-reduce their own steering angle (ie, they will start to move in the direction they are pointed, which essentially reduces their steering angle), and once they are edged that much, twisting them to continuously create still more steering angle is futile).  

 

But the key is to develop edge angles which are ever so slightly less then what you would normally need to pure arc.  This allows the ski to smear a small amount without twisting it to smear it.  Its "allowed" smearing versus "forced" smearing if that makes any sense to you.   And smearing will slow you down, while also allowing a tighter carved turn shape, which also slows you down by keeping you out of the fall line, all the while with a bigger and more effective edge angle then can be obtained when you try to twist the skis into steering angle on flatter skis.

 

 

Brushing carved turns gives you the best of both worlds:

 

  1. You get speed control from the actual brushing or skidding component, and in a good carved turn, since edge engagement happens very very earlier in the turn, you have brushing happening well before the fall line and all the way through the entire turn.  You get a bit more of a feeling of continuous speed control, rather then the falling-braking-falling-braking feeling you get with pivot entries or arc'd accelerating into the fall line like racers try to do.  The larger edge angles obtained through carving also have more slowing power when there is brushing.
  2. You get speed control from more effectively being able to carve yourself out of the fall line sooner.  In a twisty-pivoty approach to steering, carving essence is reduced, mainly due to reduced edge angle.  That is like trying to make wedge turns down a steep run, you can only make small turns at uber slow speeds; go even marginally faster and the turn size will increase dramatically due to lack of edge angle engagement and insufficient carving action.

 

So combine the larger edge angles with very small steering angles, achieved by keeping the edge angle just shy of what will produce arcing, yet big enough to create strong carving action(ie, this is mainly about edge control, not rotary), and you will be brush carving and getting the best of both worlds.  

post #156 of 176

More good advice, thankyou. It will take me a while to digest this mentally though!

 

Apologies to the OP for this hijack!!

post #157 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

I think one aspect that is missing in the carving discussion is speed and control. I don't really care about pure arcing, carving, brushing or whatever, although I do like to make a distinction between edge-locked and not. I think it is much more important to have speed control.
A lot of people out on the hill fulfill one of the following criteria when carving:

-When the speed goes up the turning radius increases
-When the speed and/or slope increases edge angles decreases. 

If either one of these are true the carving is not under control and something in the skiing should change.

That's interesting! What would you say is the most common cause of increasing turn radius at speed, if you don't mind me asking?
post #158 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanPierre View Post


That's interesting! What would you say is the most common cause of increasing turn radius at speed, if you don't mind me asking?

I think the most common reason is that as the speed goes up fear and/or skill issues leads to too much weight is put on the inside leg and not flexing/tipping it instead of balancing over the outside leg and flexing/tipping the inside.

This leads to a lateral skipping of the skis instead of edge locked carving.  

 

there are some simple physics also. The Turning radius is proportional to Speed^2/Force, so to keep the same radius when the speed doubles the Force will have to quadruple. Eventually this becomes very hard, so the trick is to never let the speed grow too much.

post #159 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by bounceswoosh View Post
 

 

I'm confused. By this definition, proper smearing is a form of carving.

Yep, confusing indeed, bounceswoosh.  Steering is carving with steer/smear in it?  Say what, Willis?  They even made a word for it; Scarving.  So then I guess carving is actually steering with no smear?  What should we call that?  Ceering?  

 

And the "Brushed Carve" term.  Please.  Comes from a guy who's built and markets a teaching methodology around carving, and condemns leg steering as a taboo technique, so he gives his steered turns a name that does not contain that evil "steer" word, so he can still claim it to be carving.  

 

It all gets too confusing for me too, bounceswoosh.  I'll leave it for others to sort it all out in some manner.  I'll be over in the corner KISS'ing people with my simplistic viewpoint.

post #160 of 176

But wait - what is slarving? Actually, I have wondered that ever since hearing it - I think I know what it means, but where did the "sl" part come from? slaying and carving?

post #161 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

How does the upper body stay quiet in your estimation Rick?

zenny

By not trying to contribute to powering the twisting of the skis.  People do that by something called "Rotation", which is the aggressive rotating of the upper body aggressively in the direction of the turn, and using the energy that generates to twist the feet and skis.  Don't do that.

 

You will hear people say in skilled steering the legs turn beneath a a stable upper body, femurs turning in hip sockets, the upper body stays facing downhill while the legs turn back and forth across the slope beneath that stable body.  That's not what I'm talking about.  That can be done, but it doesn't have to be done.  You can also let the upper body passively turn along with the legs such that the torso keeps pointing the direction the skis point as you go through the turns and transitions.  It's call skiing square.  There are reasons for doing each method. but that's a thread all it's own.

post #162 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by bounceswoosh View Post
 

But wait - what is slarving? Actually, I have wondered that ever since hearing it - I think I know what it means, but where did the "sl" part come from? slaying and carving?

Just another one to add to the jargon overload list.  Haven't seen it used much, but I'll assume it's sliding/carving.  Then there's Starving, which is carving so much you get really hungry!  

post #163 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

By not trying to contribute to powering the twisting of the skis.  People do that by something called "Rotation", which is the aggressive rotating of the upper body aggressively in the direction of the turn, and using the energy that generates to twist the feet and skis.  Don't do that.

You will hear people say in skilled steering the legs turn beneath a a stable upper body, femurs turning in hip sockets, the upper body stays facing downhill while the legs turn back and forth across the slope beneath that stable body.  That's not what I'm talking about.  That can be done, but it doesn't have to be done.  You can also let the upper body passively turn along with the legs such that the torso keeps pointing the direction the skis point as you go through the turns and transitions.  It's call skiing square.  There are reasons for doing each method. but that's a thread all it's own.

The reason I ask is because advising one to "keep the upper body quiet" can often be misleading advice. In fact, a "quiet" upper is often what an outside observer sees and may believe is happening even though the upper may often be anything but...equal and opposite reactions, and such wink.gif and down the fall line versus more square are the results of intent, turn shape, etc...

I like to use active, or disciplined in regards to the pelvis and upper body, as opposed to quiet.

zenny
post #164 of 176

Given the infinite variation of available turns it seems like we either have infinite terms to describe a turn -- and I admit we're getting real close with carving, steering, slarving and god only knows what else -- or we admit that each term (carving, skidding, etc.) covers a range of possibilities and, as said earlier -- you know it when you see it.

 

Vader: Don't be too proud of this steered turn you've constructed. The ability to steer a turn is insignificant next to the power of the Carving.
Motti: Don't try to frighten us with your instructor's ways.  Your sad devotion to that edge angle has not helped you conjure up the perfect turn or given you clairvoyance enough to find the ideal ski dimensions
Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Tarkin: Enough of this. Release him!
Vader: As you wish.
Tarkin: This bickering is pointless.

 

Substitute the names of the participants in this thread for Vader, Tarkin, etc. as you see appropriate.

 

For those of you who don't have "Star Wars Episode IV, A New Hope" memorized -- well, ummmmm, go watch it or something.

 

:rolleyes

post #165 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post


The reason I ask is because advising one to "keep the upper body quiet" can often be misleading advice. In fact, a "quiet" upper is often what an outside observer sees and may believe is happening even though the upper may often be anything but...equal and opposite reactions, and such wink.gif and down the fall line versus more square are the results of intent, turn shape, etc...

I like to use active, or disciplined in regards to the pelvis and upper body, as opposed to quiet.

zenny

It will always be the case, zenny, especially when trying to communicate through a keyboard, that attempts to be succinct will work for some and fall short for others, regardless of the words selected.  Even your preference of "disciplined" might click for some and leave others scratching their heads.  This is why follow up questions by those who need more info to gain clarity, just as you did here, is so important.  


Edited by Rick - 11/25/14 at 12:41pm
post #166 of 176
You guys ought to stop writing for a minute and read borntoski's post above. I think he nailed it.

I think you can add some skid to your carve by flattening your edges slightly, without any rotation.
Instead of thinking slip angle, ie skis at anangle
post #167 of 176
To the direction of travel, ie tips turning more than the tails, think skis slip to the outside of the turn, so at any point they would be parallel to a tangent to the arc.
Similar to sliding at the end of the turn without rotary, just sliding downhill.
post #168 of 176

A ski can do 3 things.  slide, skid and carve.   When you are skidding, you are turning the skis (Rotary) when you are carving, the skis are turning you (Edging and Pressure) You can adjust the "Purity" of skidded and carved turns via the inclusion of sliding (the reduction of Rotary,Edging and or Pressure).  Your ability to execute the skills set (from 0 to 10) and what mix you use will determine your turn shape and speed.  

post #169 of 176

Slip, slide, skid and carve.

post #170 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard View Post
 

Slip, slide, skid and carve.

Acceptable.  but to me slip and slide utilize the same skills. Both are inertial in direction and both require low edging and gravity only pressure. One is inline with the pitch and one is opposed.

post #171 of 176
Carving properly creates thin slices of food (usually a protein) of equal thickness. Hacking creates irregular thickness in the final outcome.
The analogy may seem odd but points out accuracy and some skill is required to carve well. Hacks lack that awareness and talent. And lets be honest here compared to racers at the top of the sport we are all struggling to demonstrate anything close to that accuracy and skill level. As Bob says all the time we suck at a pretty high level but we still suck.
This self deprecated attitude frees us from the absolute interpretations like pure carves. Many here can do that but that and four bucks gets you coffee at Starbucks. Racers on the other hand make money doing their thing and the mindset of striving to carve as much and as cleanly as possible makes sense. Although like Rick pointed out the gate setters make that an improbable outcome. This pursuit of perfection is cool and laudable but is impractical as more than a sometimes option.
post #172 of 176

When I strive to help my students first learn to do proper carving, it's not with a goal of having them immediately try to execute clean, big edge angle arcs on water injected black runs at 50 mph.  It's simply to show them how to make clean carves on green and easy blue runs with hero snow, learning to eliminate the tendency to apply twisting forces to the skis.  From there, they can work on honing their skill at it, with a clear concept and feel for what good carving is so they always know what they're shooting for as they take it to higher levels.  

post #173 of 176
Exactly, learning to steer less, or in my words less strongly, is often the key to that embryonic first carving experience. Beyond that flexing the ski while maintaining that clean slicing outcome becomes a matter of how far across the hill you let the skis turn. Dynamic carving increases the likelyhood of snow shear on softer snow and ski skidding on harder snow. So there is a balance where the skier must adjust the force they are applying to the snow as well as the reaction forces coming up from the snow.
post #174 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Exactly, learning to steer less, or in my words less strongly, is often the key to that embryonic first carving experience. 

 

 

Absolutely.  I teach steering first, with a strong focus on skid angle management.  As we work on the small skid angle end of the spectrum students often just start spontaneously carving, without me even mentioning it.  I don't have to teach them how, I have to hold them back from doing it, until I deem it time to go into.

post #175 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

The very small steering angle that Rick talked about is your ticket MB.  

 

Twisting is optional and in my experience will often destroy a good brushed carve because you really have to flatten a ski to be able to actually twist it into steering angle, particularly for larger steering angles.  Focus on tipping control.  

 

As JAMT pointed out, you need edge angle to slow yourself and/or to carve yourself.  Edge angles are still your friend in any kind of carving or braking.  If you create large steering angles, then the skis have to be flatter.  If you edge them more to get some carving or braking action, then they will tend to self-reduce their own steering angle (ie, they will start to move in the direction they are pointed, which essentially reduces their steering angle), and once they are edged that much, twisting them to continuously create still more steering angle is futile).  

 

But the key is to develop edge angles which are ever so slightly less then what you would normally need to pure arc.  This allows the ski to smear a small amount without twisting it to smear it.  Its "allowed" smearing versus "forced" smearing if that makes any sense to you.   And smearing will slow you down, while also allowing a tighter carved turn shape, which also slows you down by keeping you out of the fall line, all the while with a bigger and more effective edge angle then can be obtained when you try to twist the skis into steering angle on flatter skis.

 

 

Brushing carved turns gives you the best of both worlds:

 

  1. You get speed control from the actual brushing or skidding component, and in a good carved turn, since edge engagement happens very very earlier in the turn, you have brushing happening well before the fall line and all the way through the entire turn.  You get a bit more of a feeling of continuous speed control, rather then the falling-braking-falling-braking feeling you get with pivot entries or arc'd accelerating into the fall line like racers try to do.  The larger edge angles obtained through carving also have more slowing power when there is brushing.
  2. You get speed control from more effectively being able to carve yourself out of the fall line sooner.  In a twisty-pivoty approach to steering, carving essence is reduced, mainly due to reduced edge angle.  That is like trying to make wedge turns down a steep run, you can only make small turns at uber slow speeds; go even marginally faster and the turn size will increase dramatically due to lack of edge angle engagement and insufficient carving action.

 

So combine the larger edge angles with very small steering angles, achieved by keeping the edge angle just shy of what will produce arcing, yet big enough to create strong carving action(ie, this is (mainly) ENTIRELY about edge control, not rotary AND FORE/AFT PRESSURE CONTROL), and you will be brush carving and getting the best of both worlds.  

 

It's hard to put this into words, but the above is about as good as I've ever seen! Congrats and thanks. The minor edits are important though. Intentional rotation of the skis ruins a brushed carve. (I like that terminology, it's very descriptive of what happens.)

post #176 of 176

ok - I've locked this thread and deleted the last few posts because this thread has long ago answered the op's question and has veered off into a topic area that has caused severe disruption to the Epic community and subtle attempts at free advertising in the past. Members are encouraged to take the discussions private.

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