or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Speed control through turn shape/line choice
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Speed control through turn shape/line choice

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

Reading about turn shape and speed control here I assumed it was about radius and edge engagement at the top of the turn as in most epic threads with turn shape in the search engine.

 

I saw a youtube last year that was the last of a series of instructional videos.  I lost the bookmark but remember the jist.

 

I already learned how the top half of the turn is key to control while the bottom half is not about control.  How a good start slows you down before the fall line, and the bottom half is just coasting to the next turn the other way.

 

This took me YEARS to realize, and then I saw how the primary essence of actual skiing as compared to just sliding around on the groomers afraid of the fall line and checking(attempted) on the tails.

 

This development had me addicted to the fall line.  Constantly turning left and right left leaving a nice sine-like wave in my wake.

 

The ideas from that video are this sine wave according to the ski radius is essentially the median line choice.  An expert skier should know the variations to this natural line.  The first being an early initiation that cuts the apex a bit sending your momentum around to a later release.  While a late initiation allows you to use an early release.  I think in terms of an early apex versus perfect apex versus late apex.

 

The three choices on when one initiates a turn and releases a turn makes for lines that offer a range of momentum control I never thought about previously.  Now sometimes I drill on perfect apexes then vary from there.

 

I searched EPIC for more on this topic, but only found carving advice and of course top half emphasis.  Are any bears teaching this method of line choice?  Does anyone have a link to that youtube page?

 

Thanks all

 

I found the video 'lesson', I remembered it was british and then it was easy to find.


Edited by Buttinski - 11/10/14 at 12:45pm
post #2 of 27

It sounds like you have discovered the concept of "skiing a slow enough line as fast as you can" (aka, "slow line fast").

 

"Slow line fast" has been discussed here many times...  However, I'm not sure I follow what you mean by "early vs late" turn initiations?

 

The concept of "slow line fast" is that your path down hill has enough speed checks built into it (through across or even uphill travel...) that you are free to ski it "fast" and -- since your speed is "automatically" under control through your line choice, you no longer have to check speed, which has all kinds of benefits.

 

"Slow line fast" requires embracing the fall-line which means being patient at the top-half of the turn...  so I think you have discovered "slow line fast", just under different wording.  Thumbs Up

post #3 of 27

Wow, skiing lessons from the British. Their only skiing claim to fame was Eddy the Eagle in '88 LOL!

post #4 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post
 

It sounds like you have discovered the concept of "skiing a slow enough line as fast as you can" (aka, "slow line fast").

 

"Slow line fast" has been discussed here many times...  However, I'm not sure I follow what you mean by "early vs late" turn initiations?

 

The concept of "slow line fast" is that your path down hill has enough speed checks built into it (through across or even uphill travel...) that you are free to ski it "fast" and -- since your speed is "automatically" under control through your line choice, you no longer have to check speed, which has all kinds of benefits.

 

"Slow line fast" requires embracing the fall-line which means being patient at the top-half of the turn...  so I think you have discovered "slow line fast", just under different wording.  Thumbs Up

It appears you're going for the jigsaw puzzle turn where you ski uphill slightly(late release) before turning back down.

I always took slow line fast to mean seeking the shallowest way down to minimize acceleration from gravity.  

I'm talking about release points and exit lines.  Varying your turn shape accordingly can speed you up(racers) or slow you down(bumps and steeps).

 

His skiing all looks the same to my untrained eye, but the idea really set in with me.

post #5 of 27

mod note - thread moved from the general skiing forum with redirect link active till December.

post #6 of 27

The most important advice is at 6:27

post #7 of 27

Don't need to make it so complicated.  The more your line resembles a line straight down the fall line, the faster you're gonna go.  The more you diverge from the fall line (either by choosing later release point or more uphill exit line) the slower you're gonna go.

 

Note for those carving on hard snow:  If you are carving well, on any half decent hill and slope, you will be exceeding the design specs of your sl skis before you get to the bottom, unless the hill is extremely wide or you are skiing uphill a good portion of the time.  If you decide to ski uphill, be very careful to avoid collisions with folks travelling in the usual direction; they don't expect you to be going the "wrong" way. 

post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Don't need to make it so complicated.  The more your line resembles a line straight down the fall line, the faster you're gonna go.  The more you diverge from the fall line (either by choosing later release point or more uphill exit line) the slower you're gonna go.

 

Note for those carving on hard snow:  If you are carving well, on any half decent hill and slope, you will be exceeding the design specs of your sl skis before you get to the bottom, unless the hill is extremely wide or you are skiing uphill a good portion of the time.  If you decide to ski uphill, be very careful to avoid collisions with folks travelling in the usual direction; they don't expect you to be going the "wrong" way. 

keep it simple:

 

Part deux: No Ghost, you won't. Well, you might exceed the design specs, but a normal skier who can carve well can keep a SL ski arcing like a metronome from top to bottom without accelerating the entire way... that's the whole point of carving short to mid radius turns. It takes energy to keep the skis turning across the hill, but a good skier finds it easy to remain in control. A reasonably good example starting at 20 seconds, homie could keep that turn up till the cows come home without accelerating out of control:

 

post #9 of 27

Well, yeah.  That's Paul Lorenz.  

post #10 of 27

A good efficient carved turn leaves precise thin lines on the snow and does NOT throw up a bunch of snow while doing so.  Just say'n.

post #11 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

A good efficient carved turn leaves precise thin lines on the snow and does NOT throw up a bunch of snow while doing so.  Just say'n.

That's called "park and ride", and it ain't 'good' skiing. A good skier might partake in the illicit behavior at times, but can also take charge of the skis and drive instead acting like a passive passenger.

 

Here is a reformed park monkey showing how it's done (I've gotta say, I prefer how actual athletes ski to PSIA* folk) (edit: OOPS, wrong Quebecoise skier, thought he was a former Canadian Airforce member... guess he's just a ski instructor, pretty darn good for an instructor though):

 

Dammit JF, you blew a perfectly good joke by not being that JF... 

post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nix View Post
 

Wow, skiing lessons from the British. Their only skiing claim to fame was Eddy the Eagle in '88 LOL!


I think you are forgetting Martin Bell, an Epic member, with some pretty good world cup and olympic results to his name....;)

 

(and, useless factoid, I suspect I am the only Epic member who has actually raced against Martin - in Scottish Ski Club races, not WC, i hasten to add!!!  :D)

post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

A good efficient carved turn leaves precise thin lines on the snow and does NOT throw up a bunch of snow while doing so.  Just say'n.

An awful lot of UP motion in that video 

post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

An awful lot of UP motion in that video 

no, that's just how the kids on South Park talk, not an UP move. When they talk the top of their heads move up and down.

 

 

He wasn't using an UP move, just saying "french fry"

post #15 of 27

One can ski across the fall line-- AKA stop.

 

One can ski down the fall line-- AKA straight line it.

 

One can ski in an infinite number of smoothly curved shapes between these above two, extreme and generally boring options.

 

One can varying the shape of these smoothly curved turn shapes at any given point in the turn. 

 

One can introduce an infinite number of variations of skidded or abrupt-transition moments into these infinite number of otherwise smoothly curved turn shapes between parallel and perpendicular to the fall line.

 

It might be helpful to think about the various parts of a turn when you're learning how doing things at various points of a turn change your trajectory, but one shouldn't lose the plot: You can do things at all of the infinitesimal points in the turn to control shape, speed, and movement. The best skiers use all these things-- carving, skidding, changing weighting (up-down, fore-aft, edge-base-edge), varying turn shapes on the fly throughout any single turn-- to have fun, control speed and direction, and stay upright in challenging conditions.

post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
 

no, that's just how the kids on South Park talk, not an UP move. When they talk the top of their heads move up and down.

 

 

He wasn't using an UP move, just saying "french fry"

 

Not quite correct...  This is how all CANADIANS talk on South Park.  Ike was adopted and was born Canadian.  Saddam Hussein also talks like this on South Park.   Maybe he's Canadian too?

post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

A good efficient carved turn on ice leaves precise thin lines on the snow and does NOT throw up a bunch of snow while doing so.  Just say'n.

 

FIFY. 

 

However, on soft snow, when the skier is actively working the ski, a carved turn will throw up snow. It won't throw up as much snow as a skidded turn, and the snow will generally be thrown in a more tangential direction to the arc rather than downhill. But it will throw up snow. 

post #18 of 27

Ok, time to let the cat out of the bag.

 

Look at the diagram at 3:47 of the video in the OP.  If you think of the release point as the point at which you release your CM from the turn, but still allow your skis to keep turning across the hill, you can see how early release let's you gain speed and late release prevents you from gaining speed. 

 

You can carry this a little bit further by pushing yourself back up the hill off your downhill skis/edges at the bottom of the turn (there is a danger that this will encourage other bad habits, but I'll let a ski instructor deal with that).  Even further, you can finish with a hard edge set and a mini-hockey stop at the end of each turn, or combine all three.

 

Take another look at the videos; you will see what is going on.  It's not just clean carving in a different line.  I'm sure people who know what they are doing love telling people it's all about the chosen line, and that they are carving cleanly, just in a different path, but there is more to it than that.  Clean carving is the most efficient way to ski, and converts your potential energy due to gravity (elevation) into kinetic energy as you go down the mountain.  If you do it right, you will go very fast.  The laws of physics do apply, no matter what any ski instructors tell you.

 

If you are varying your turn radius, turn shape, release points, skiing every which way your little heart desires and can change your path at will at any time (and frequently do just for fun), you are not doing the Park and Ride; park and Ride is tipping to a given tipping angle (and turn radius, usually the same one for any given speed) and keeping it until you want to turn the other way.

post #19 of 27
When carving in soft snow, the snow gives way/compresses from the skies weight causing a spray off the skis. Aka 4"ruts. Good skiing from that fella however, it did like excessive up weighting.
post #20 of 27

It must also be admitted that deep soft snow does slow a skier much more than hardpack.

post #21 of 27

I'm not a fan of the line that "clean carving is the most efficient way to ski." One has to specify what efficient skiing means, and I think you'll find serious disagreement-- and a general lack by the skiing public (and instructors) of how the laws of physics + biomechanics apply. 

 

The most efficient way down a slope is almost surely a straight line. 

 

The most efficient way to get to a full stop is open to debate and how you measure efficiency (time, energy expended, etc). 

 

The most efficient way down a long, complex piste is likewise open to debate. Short of measuring caloric expenditure, this won't be solved. It could be least turns to keep going slow enough to survive (downhill racer; aka "for time"), or it could be least total caloric expenditure, or it could be lowest average caloric expenditure over time. 

 

Cleanly carving as a singular "most efficient" way down a slope is a canard. It belies a real understanding of physics, biomechanics, and molecular biology. One can say clean carving is an aesthetic way to get down a slope, a smooth way to get down a slope, a way to control speed and trajectory, one tool in a big toolbox. But that's about where it ends. (For the record: Anytime you move from on top of a hill downward because of gravity you're converting potential energy into kinetic energy by definition, even if you're sliding on your ass or walking; the reverse is true when you're moving up on the lift, with some simplification involved. We're ignoring considerations of chemical conversion here via ATP) :)

post #22 of 27

Precise language is usually avoided except in physics texts and legal documents in favour of ease of reading, but just for you,

"Clean carving is the way to ski a series of curves down a slope that converts the most potential energy into kinetic energy while converting the least amount of potential energy to thermal through friction."

post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Precise language is usually avoided except in physics texts and legal documents in favour of ease of reading, but just for you,

"Clean carving is the way to ski a series of curves down a slope that converts the most potential energy into kinetic energy while converting the least amount of potential energy to thermal through friction."

 

I guess the point is-- I am not convinced. But I don't think we're going to have proof in this thread, or any discussion that doesn't include a clearly designed study that actually measures this.

 

My point is much like yours: It's one thing to go to the back of the envelope to build a maximization equation (or set of equations) using ideal systems (that don't exist in real life). You get this in intro physics classes; equations look nice and clean and confounding factors are simply ignored (the same confounding factors that in the real world often, if not most of the time, overcome what appears to be the primary driver of a system). 

 

Hence, it's a canard to state that cleanly carving is in any way the most efficient way to do anything but cleanly carve. 

 

(BTW, I have no beef with carving. Feels pretty amazing! But I wanted to make a point... and we didn't even discuss fluid dynamics, or how planing/melting/heat comes into play.)

post #24 of 27

Maybe if we put some gates in the way we can have a measure of efficiency? 

post #25 of 27
ITT
1)Intent what I want to happen
2)Tactic the line choice that will express our intent
3)Technique the moves that we use to produce both 1&2

As fsr as learning to vary the apex, early, middle and late, it varies the turn shape.
early=comma,
middle=round high line,
late=fishhook shaped turns.
All options we see taught at some point. A round line being the usual first choice. More direct lines come after that but are often race only training that happens around the early teen ability levels.
USSA has many resourses devoted to tactics and how to develop line options.
post #26 of 27

The turn shape concepts in the video are pretty sound.  The thing I think needs to be rethought is the part about "combining exit line and release point".  He shows in his explanation drawing a turn, followed by a long straight line, with different release points along that line.  Problem is there has to be a release to go from turning to skiing in a straight line.

post #27 of 27

Hey Rick, Yes release points are ultra important and developing a good understanding of where, why and how to execute a clean release are often misunderstood. Often the ball on a string analogy gets used but a better example might be a luge where the path is defined by the track the sled follows. The "inward fleeing forces" thus become a "deflecting contact force" pushing us into the turn as opposed to one pulling us into the turn. How we manage that platform, where we place the strong turning efforts (from all skill applications) and where the apex occurs thus is easier to imagine as a variable that changes the shape and direction that of that luge track.

Early the combination of Gravity acting to pull us into the turn (initiation to when we face the fall line) and our management of the edge platform suggest some delicate and progressive actions since it would be easy to get too far inside and lose the ability to pressure the ski later in that turn. Just as Jamt suggests

As we face the fall line it is much easier to add strong edge and pressure actions that will slingshot us back across the hill. Thus eliminating the need to do as much effort wise as the skis turn back across the hill. Akin to the tramp man graphic Barnes has posted here many times

High edge and pressure late works to deflect us into a traverse across the hill and is useful when a gate with huge offset is encountered, or if we are otherwise wanting our line to include a traverse across the hill. Interestingly most skier experience Gravity as an outward fleeing force and intuitively react by stiffening up their leg to drive the ski edge deeper into the snow all the way to the release. But if their body is that far inside the current turn getting it back over the skis, or the ski back under us, becomes a big focus and requires a large lateral RoM movement.

 

Situations exist where each of these are appropriate but linking turns make it important to know how to get into the new turn as cleanly as possible.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Speed control through turn shape/line choice