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Release, Its just a word. - Page 2

post #31 of 44
I had great success with this last year while teaching a very defensive beginner whom had had lessons before from someone else at a different mountain. He would brace against the outside in a wedge and make an uphill weight transfer, the effect being that his tips would cross as he started to turn-- he would fall pretty much every time. I took him to something quite flat and showed him how to relax and flatten--it took him a few go's but eventually he got it and was linking some nice turns (with MUCH less falling) by the end of the hour and a half lesson...even coaxed some parallel turns out of him. I then debriefed the parents and showed and told them what to watch for. smile.gif

zenny
post #32 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
 
 I then debriefed the parents and showed and told them what to watch for. smile.gif

zenny

 

Such an important part of a lesson, fortunately at my school we have time to do this after the hour lesson is over (assuming we're willing to give up some of our free time to do it, which I certainly always am.)

 

I love debriefing parents, and it often triggers a tip.

post #33 of 44
Thread Starter 

bts,

 

Agreed that lightening and tipping are both necessary and I tend to add the lightening concept in after one trip down in the magic carpet area with the focus on flattening. From there on its hard to talk about one without including the other. I'd be willing to bet that after a three hour lesson our outcomes would be very similar.

 

Your idea that lightening is releasing and tipping in initiating is very interesting. I'll probably have something to say about it after I give it a little more thought.

 

Do you view flattening to be part of tipping or are they more separate, flattening being part of the release and tipping part of the initiation. I have heard myself tell students that when they 'roll the sole" from big toe to little toe they are letting go of the old arc and starting the new arc

 

fom


Edited by fatoldman - 11/11/14 at 10:41am
post #34 of 44

For a couple of seasons my mantra was "get over it man."  Meaning get my weight over my outside ski, angulate, incline, extend - whatever it took to keep my focus on that.  In addition to get over it early in the turn.

 

The next step for me was to think "let it go!"   "get over it - let it go."  I had (have?) a bad habit of holding on to the old turn too long, so "let it go" was a great mantra.

 

Add some of the X-move to that and my skiing improved dramatically.

post #35 of 44

For me, release is an edge term, and it is the opposite of engaged. But I don't see release as a single instant, I see it as a spectrum. In general, releasing for me is the process of reducing edge angle or edge pressure in order to reduce or eliminate the grip that edge has on the snow surface. Engagement is the opposite, it is increasing those elements in order to increase the grip that edge has. An edge can be fully engaged, it can also be fully released. A fully engaged edge is when the skier is laying down carved arcs, and the tail of the ski is following the same path of the tip. A completely released edge is when the ski is entirely flat on the snow, and is essentially a passenger to gravity and/or inertia. While there are times during skiing where an edge is both fully released and fully engaged, the vast majority of the time skiing is spent in between those two extremes. How releasing is achieved is dependent upon the situation and the proficiency of the skier. 

post #36 of 44

Lots of welcome questions FOM.  :)

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 

Do you of flattening to be part of tipping or are they more separate, flattening being part of the release and tipping part of the initiation.

 
Another excellent question.  I view tipping and flattening to be the same thing.  the move of the new inside leg to flatten that ski is the early movement towards tipping it.  Of course in wedge turn you spend the vast majority of the time just trying to get that ski flattened more, it never even gets to the inside edge during wedge turns.  Later on as they start matching skis, the same tipping movements start from a much flatter ski to begin with and tips onto the inside edge.  But its the same inside leg tipping in both cases, at the same time and basically for the same reason, though for parallel turns the tipping becomes a much more active contributor to turn initiation dynamics, then is the case with wedge turns.
 
In wedge turns, flattening the ski without lightening it does not release the skier.  What I said earlier about banana peels applies here.   Weight needs to be transferred to the new outside ski, and the CoM needs to be allowed to move inside, which is what happens when you lighten that leg, open the gate and allow it to go there.  flattening the inside ski does not cause any of that to happen in wedge turns, the only reason you need to get the inside ski flat in a wedge turn is to keep your tips from crossing.  Merely lightening it gets the turning action to happen.  Because of the fact that its really really hard to get that inside ski into the LTE in a wedge turn, you can't really consider the tipping to be an active contributor to turn initiation.  That will be the case more so later in parallel turns however.
 
But in both wedge and parallel turns, the lightening of that leg is what will allow a release to happen so that the weight is transferred to the new outside ski while allowing the CoM to move inside at the same time.
post #37 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Focusing on the release all by itself allows the skier to control the top of the turn.  Benefits follow.

 

Separating that release conceptually from getting the skis to turn in the new direction can be a big breakthrough.  It makes possible thinking of the center of mass having its own line separate from the line the skis are taking.  The skier can start tracking that CoM line, and feel the "X" when it occurs.  This whole process opens the door to shaping the top of the turn.  That skier can learn how to extend or shorten the top of the turn as the skis engage up back behind the rest of the body.  That skier can get "upside down," and reap the advantages on variable conditions. 

 

Release is not just a word.

So what is your definition LF?

 

A release is doing something that frees the center of mass from continuing along a circular path that belongs to the old turn.  The center of mass will proceed on a straight trajectory after the release, until new turn forces deflect it on a new circular path in the other direction.  

 

The new turn begins, technically, when the skis get onto their new edges.  After the release, the skis may stay on their old edges for a bit before tipping onto new edges.  So there's a small period of time between the release and the start of the new turn during which the skier can do some interesting things.  

 

@jamt, do you find it advantageous as a racer and race coach to not think this way? 

post #38 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Just remembered this. RLM talks about these things without mentioning the release word, Making the switch: http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentations/Making-the-Switch-PSIA-NW-10-2011.pdf

In his book, Ultimate Skiing, LeMaster talks about for ways of "getting your center of gravity and feet to swap sides (p. 150).  The heading for this section is "Techniques for Transitions."  Below in black are the four ways from the book.  In blue are the four ways in the power point presentation you link above.  Note that the presentation is for "snow riding," meaning all snow sliding sports.  He has altered his approach to fit snowboarding, nordic, and alpine.

 

He doesn't call them "releases."  His index does not list "release."   I also can't find "initiation," nor "retraction," nor "extension" in the index.  "Transition," however, is there.  

Where's that smiley saying "words words words words" when I need it?

 

 

1.  Making the feet slow down or turn more sharply   1.  Make your feet go slower (preturn, edgeset, downhill stem, etc.)

2.  Removing the Support of the Downhill Ski            2.  Remove the support of the downhill foot  (no breakdown provided, but the one picture shows the new inside ski lifted off the snow)

3.  Flexing                                                                   3.  Make your feet turn more sharply (angulation, tip pressure, etc.)

4.  Lateral Support From the Pole Plant                     4.  Make your upper body go straighter (disengage the upper body from the feet, etc.)

 

 

He also has a slide in that presentation that says:

"Project Your Body Down the Hill"  -- Is this possible?

 

I think he is talking about releases, without using the word.

post #39 of 44

of course, because not all of those methods of x-over involve a release.  

post #40 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

A release is doing something that frees the center of mass from continuing along a circular path that belongs to the old turn.  The center of mass will proceed on a straight trajectory after the release, until new turn forces deflect it on a new circular path in the other direction.  

 

The new turn begins, technically, when the skis get onto their new edges.  After the release, the skis may stay on their old edges for a bit before tipping onto new edges.  So there's a small period of time between the release and the start of the new turn during which the skier can do some interesting things.  

 

@jamt, do you find it advantageous as a racer and race coach to not think this way? 

I kind of think of it the other way around. When the skis are flatish there is no point in loading them because you cannot support any lateral forces, so the most efficient way is to have the skis unweighted when they become too flat to support any real turning forces.  Zenny has a good analogy with a 100$ bill for this.

If you do something to upset the balance (e.g. increase tipping/angulation, relax outside leg), the skis will be untipped anyway, and often it can be very efficient to try to stay longer on your edges, in order to provide energy for the toppling into the other side. An advanced move can for example be to slowly start to flex the outside leg, but to increase edging that this more bent leg allows. You will continue to turn in the old turn for slightly longer, but when the rebound comes it will throw you very quickly into the next turn. Another way is to relax the outside leg but keep the old inside engaged. Another way is to just keep the weight on the outside and progressively increase edging until the Kick/rebound comes. You could even just keep about the same angulation you had at the fall line and wait for the toppling to come because of change relation between slope and gravity (This is what PSIman does) Lots of variations, but the common theme is that you do something to upset the balance before you unweight.

I also think it help to see this as CoM movement in relation to the feet, and this is a rotation of the body mass more than moving of the CoM into the next turn. The CoM does not start to move into the next turn until the edges are engaged again.

post #41 of 44

Good thoughts!  My comments in red below. 

Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

A release is doing something that frees the center of mass from continuing along a circular path that belongs to the old turn.  The center of mass will proceed on a straight trajectory after the release, until new turn forces deflect it on a new circular path in the other direction.  

 

The new turn begins, technically, when the skis get onto their new edges.  After the release, the skis may stay on their old edges for a bit before tipping onto new edges.  So there's a small period of time between the release and the start of the new turn during which the skier can do some interesting things.  

 

@jamt, do you find it advantageous as a racer and race coach to not think this way? 

 

I kind of think of it the other way around. When the skis are flatish there is no point in loading them because you cannot support any lateral forces, so the most efficient way is to have the skis unweighted when they become too flat to support any real turning forces.  Zenny has a good analogy with a 100$ bill for this.  (I'm not sure how this relates to what I said above, nor how it's the other way around from what I said, since I agree with you!) 

 

If you do something to upset the balance (e.g. increase tipping/angulation, relax outside leg), the skis will be untipped anyway, and often it can be very efficient to try to stay longer on your edges, (exactly my point above!) in order to provide energy for the toppling into the other side. An advanced move can for example be to slowly start to flex the outside leg, but to increase edging that this more bent leg allows. (Can't wait to go out and try this once conditions allow - I've slowly flexed the outside leg, but never increased its edging at the same time.)  You will continue to turn in the old turn for slightly longer, but when the rebound comes it will throw you very quickly into the next turn. Another way is to relax the outside leg but keep the old inside engaged. (Yes, go bowlegged with the new inside leg; I have my beginners do this, but I have not intentionally explored going bowlegged myself at speed; this is another one to try as soon as conditions allow.)  Another way is to just keep the weight on the outside and progressively increase edging (I assume you mean you propel progressively off LTE of old inside leg; that ski tips onto its BTE and you continue to lengthen the leg, yes?  If so, I think this is PSIA's "advanced" version of extend-to-release.) until the Kick/rebound comes. You could even just keep about the same angulation you had at the fall line and wait for the toppling to come because of change relation between slope and gravity (This is what PSIman does) (Must go out and feel this one happen;  it seems like if you hold onto the old angulation as your skis come out of the fall line you'd drop inside more rather than dropping downhill more and be accused of park-n-ride.)  Lots of variations, but the common theme is that you do something to upset the balance before you unweight. (yes, agree; releasing is upsetting the balance).  

 

I also think it help to see this as CoM movement in relation to the feet, and this is a rotation of the body mass more than moving of the CoM into the next turn (This is a new way of thinking for me; can you explain the advantages of thinking about rotation of body mass rather than line the CoM follows?). The CoM does not start to move into the next turn until the edges are engaged again (you totally surprise me; I don't see your reasoning for this one).

 

Thanks, jamt, for the thoughtful response.

post #42 of 44

Blue

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

If you do something to upset the balance (e.g. increase tipping/angulation, relax outside leg), the skis will be untipped anyway, and often it can be very efficient to try to stay longer on your edges, (exactly my point above! Almost the same, if you have released the CoM you don't have any significant force I assume) in order to provide energy for the toppling into the other side. An advanced move can for example be to slowly start to flex the outside leg, but to increase edging that this more bent leg allows. (Can't wait to go out and try this once conditions allow - I've slowly flexed the outside leg, but never increased its edging at the same time.)  You will continue to turn in the old turn for slightly longer, but when the rebound comes it will throw you very quickly into the next turn. Another way is to relax the outside leg but keep the old inside engaged. (Yes, go bowlegged with the new inside leg; I have my beginners do this, but I have not intentionally explored going bowlegged myself at speed; this is another one to try as soon as conditions allow.)  Another way is to just keep the weight on the outside and progressively increase edging (I assume you mean you propel progressively off LTE of old inside leg; that ski tips onto its BTE and you continue to lengthen the leg, yes?  If so, I think this is PSIA's "advanced" version of extend-to-release.  I am not familiar with that but I don't think it is the same. I'm talking about the increased force that results from increased edging. The centripetal force is propotional to v^2/cos(edge angle)/sidecut ) until the Kick/rebound comes. You could even just keep about the same angulation you had at the fall line and wait for the toppling to come because of change relation between slope and gravity (This is what PSIman does) (Must go out and feel this one happen;  it seems like if you hold onto the old angulation as your skis come out of the fall line you'd drop inside more rather than dropping downhill more and be accused of park-n-ride.)  Lots of variations, but the common theme is that you do something to upset the balance before you unweight. (yes, agree; releasing is upsetting the balance).  

 

I also think it help to see this as CoM movement in relation to the feet, and this is a rotation of the body mass more than moving of the CoM into the next turn (This is a new way of thinking for me; can you explain the advantages of thinking about rotation of body mass rather than line the CoM follows?)It resembles what happens more closely. The whole idea of moving the CoM into the next turn is flawed. As you said the CoM is just moving along the trajectory it had when you released. The real action is the rotation, and then when you land again the new turn starts and this is when the CoM moves into the new turn. Semantics perhaps.

 

The CoM does not start to move into the next turn until the edges are engaged again (you totally surprise me; I don't see your reasoning for this one).

I simply mean that the CoM is not in a turn until the edges are engaged. Similarly to above, it did not move, it just rotated so that the feet are in a different position compared to the previous turn. 

CoM in turn

CoM free float and rotating

repeat

 

The more powerful the turn the more time will be spent in the free float and rotating state. 

post #43 of 44

anyone have a spare set of 3D glasses?

post #44 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

anyone have a spare set of 3D glasses?

 

Whats the matter, head doesn't hurt enough already?

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