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Need help with pivot slips - Page 2

post #31 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

Eventually, yes. And the big toe edge of the new downhill ski. You'll be pressing on both to initiate the turn, but I emphasize the little toe edge of the downhill ski because it really makes you move that COM over the skis. You can pressure the big toe of the uphill ski and not move your COM. You can't pressure your little toe edge of the downhill ski without your COM moving over your skis. 

good stuff.  Thanks.

post #32 of 122

Has anyone posted this? 

post #33 of 122
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

Eventually, yes. And the big toe edge of the new downhill ski. You'll be pressing on both to initiate the turn, but I emphasize the little toe edge of the downhill ski because it really makes you move that COM over the skis. You can pressure the big toe of the uphill ski and not move your COM. You can't pressure your little toe edge of the downhill ski without your COM moving over your skis. 

 

Sure you can.  If the skis are out ahead of the CoM, you can move them back up under you... or you can move your CoM ahead over them.  

 

Try both.

Same thing, but conceptualizing it another way! 

Works better for some folks one way and for others the other way.

 

Best of all, keep your CoM moving with the skis and no movement will be necessary.

post #34 of 122
Based on some of the posts, it looks like your boots & skis are properly balanced/aligned, that would have been my first suggestion. With that out of the way, I'll ask, have you had video taken of yourself skiing? And, not just racing, but free skiing on all types of terrain. I suspect you stance / balance is somewhat off and that is what is causing the problems.
post #35 of 122

The section from 1:45 to 2:10 is fantastic.  Showing how a pivot slip relates to a release-initiated turn.  Great demo!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
 

Has anyone posted this? 

post #36 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Sure you can.  If the skis are out ahead of the CoM, you can move them back up under you... or you can move your CoM ahead over them.  

 

Try both.

Same thing, but conceptualizing it another way! 

Works better for some folks one way and for others the other way.

 

Best of all, keep your CoM moving with the skis and no movement will be necessary.

 

I start the process with my uphill ski.  If I was making a short radius turn, as I come out of the previous turn, I would engage my uphill ski and it would be my new base of support.  I extend off of it and my CoM moves downhill as my skis flatten and I bring in all the rotary to make the turn.

 

Same same for pivot slips.

 

I think downhill ski or uphill ski is a choice of the skier's personal preference.  Using the uphill ski makes it difficult to keep the CoM uphill of the skis.  It's what works well for me and makes sense to me.  YMMV.

post #37 of 122
Yep.  Different strokes for different folks, even in pivot slips.
post #38 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post
 

 

I start the process with my uphill ski.  If I was making a short radius turn, as I come out of the previous turn, I would engage my uphill ski and it would be my new base of support.  I extend off of it and my CoM moves downhill as my skis flatten and I bring in all the rotary to make the turn.

 

Same same for pivot slips.

 

I think downhill ski or uphill ski is a choice of the skier's personal preference.  Using the uphill ski makes it difficult to keep the CoM uphill of the skis.  It's what works well for me and makes sense to me.  YMMV.


Perhaps I don't quite understand what you mean by starting the process with your uphill ski, but I'll say that the warning lights go off for me on that beginning of movement.  Extending off of the uphill ski sounds to me like a rotary push off, and that movement is one that will lead to a fail in PSIA-RM.  As @freeski919 stated above, the first thing that has to happen is that the hip has to move over the downhill ski to allow the edges to release.  The pivot is a simultaneous rotation of both femurs starting from the feet up.  If you push off of the uphill ski, you are going to have a 1-2 move where first the uphill ski pivots then the downhill ski, and that leads to a divergence of the two skis.

 

Of course, I could be misunderstanding what you mean by extending off of the uphill ski...

 

Mike

post #39 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post
 


Perhaps I don't quite understand what you mean by starting the process with your uphill ski, but I'll say that the warning lights go off for me on that beginning of movement.  Extending off of the uphill ski sounds to me like a rotary push off, and that movement is one that will lead to a fail in PSIA-RM.  As @freeski919 stated above, the first thing that has to happen is that the hip has to move over the downhill ski to allow the edges to release.  The pivot is a simultaneous rotation of both femurs starting from the feet up.  If you push off of the uphill ski, you are going to have a 1-2 move where first the uphill ski pivots then the downhill ski, and that leads to a divergence of the two skis.

 

Of course, I could be misunderstanding what you mean by extending off of the uphill ski...

 

Mike

 I don't think he is promoting a rotary push off. The move to release your edges needs to come before your start any rotary move. They're separate. Whether you release your edges by pushing down on your LTE, or by extending the uphill leg, or retracting your feet under you, that is a distinct move. Only once your edges are released can you execute any rotary motion. If you try to combine the edge release maneuver with the rotary motion of the pivot, you're going to get a direction change, which is what you want to avoid in a pivot slip. 

post #40 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

 I don't think he is promoting a rotary push off. The move to release your edges needs to come before your start any rotary move. They're separate. Whether you release your edges by pushing down on your LTE, or by extending the uphill leg, or retracting your feet under you, that is a distinct move. Only once your edges are released can you execute any rotary motion. If you try to combine the edge release maneuver with the rotary motion of the pivot, you're going to get a direction change, which is what you want to avoid in a pivot slip. 


Fair enough.  Pivot slips have been a drill that has brought many "Aha!" moments into my skiing.  The move to get the CoM over the downhill ski to allow a release is one of those insights.  And it has many implications in my skiing. Trapped on the uphill ski is a problem I've had (in steeps particularly) and pivot slips have helped me to become aware of what should be going on as opposed to what is going on.

 

That being said, our class last year found that it was really hard to self-coach pivot slips.  You need an independent eye to tell you whether or not you had a deflection or rotary push off.  It's pretty hard to find these things without someone else observing.

 

Mike

post #41 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post
 


Perhaps I don't quite understand what you mean by starting the process with your uphill ski, but I'll say that the warning lights go off for me on that beginning of movement.  Extending off of the uphill ski sounds to me like a rotary push off, and that movement is one that will lead to a fail in PSIA-RM.  As @freeski919 stated above, the first thing that has to happen is that the hip has to move over the downhill ski to allow the edges to release.  The pivot is a simultaneous rotation of both femurs starting from the feet up.  If you push off of the uphill ski, you are going to have a 1-2 move where first the uphill ski pivots then the downhill ski, and that leads to a divergence of the two skis.

 

Of course, I could be misunderstanding what you mean by extending off of the uphill ski...

 

Mike

 I don't think he is promoting a rotary push off. The move to release your edges needs to come before your start any rotary move. They're separate. Whether you release your edges by pushing down on your LTE, or by extending the uphill leg, or retracting your feet under you, that is a distinct move. Only once your edges are released can you execute any rotary motion. If you try to combine the edge release maneuver with the rotary motion of the pivot, you're going to get a direction change, which is what you want to avoid in a pivot slip. 

 

Talk about doing a release in pivot slips has never made much sense to me.

There is no need for a release if the edges never engage.

Pivot slipping down the hill indicates that the skis are in a constant state of release, right?

If you are over them and they are under you and they are not stuck in the snow, you can pivot them in any direction you want, when you want.   


That said, if the skis are stuck in the snow for some reason (very shallow pitch, deep snow, sticky snow), then you do have to release them before pivoting them.

If the skis get in front of you, in either understanding of "in front," you'll need to release.  

Maybe you folks out west who have softer snow much of the time need to release.  

I tend to find myself doing pivot slips on icy surfaces; that makes them very very easy.

 

freeski919, you are at Steaux which we all know has superior, super soft snow for New England, yes?  

Is this why you do a release in pivot slips?

Or maybe I do a release and don't know it.  

post #42 of 122
Instead of "pressuring the little toe of the downhill foot", I'd rather say relax the downhill foot and roll it toward the little toe.
post #43 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Talk about doing a release in pivot slips has never made much sense to me.

There is no need for a release if the edges never engage.

 

I feel like what I release is the tension stored in my legs. I know that some people feel like what they are doing is steering the skis through the pivot slip by twisting their legs, but I feel like I am allowing my legs to twist through the pivot-slip by manipulating my edging and balance movements. So I do feel like it can be a release, and while the edging is not strong, there is some edging.

post #44 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

freeski919, you are at Steaux which we all know has superior, super soft snow for New England, yes?  

Is this why you do a release in pivot slips?

Or maybe I do a release and don't know it.  

Hey come on now, our ice is also superior to your ice. ;)

post #45 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Talk about doing a release in pivot slips has never made much sense to me.
There is no need for a release if the edges never engage.
Pivot slipping down the hill indicates that the skis are in a constant state of release, right?
If you are over them and they are under you and they are not stuck in the snow, you can pivot them in any direction you want, when you want.   


That said, if the skis are stuck in the snow for some reason (very shallow pitch, deep snow, sticky snow), then you do have to release them before pivoting them.
If the skis get in front of you, in either understanding of "in front," you'll need to release.  
Maybe you folks out west who have softer snow much of the time need to release.  
I tend to find myself doing pivot slips on icy surfaces; that makes them very very easy.

freeski919, you are at Steaux which we all know has superior, super soft snow for New England, yes?  
Is this why you do a release in pivot slips?
Or maybe I do a release and don't know it.  

But, LF, even in a sideslip you are engaging the edges. To pivot you must reduce that engagement.
post #46 of 122
Epic beat me to it.
post #47 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Talk about doing a release in pivot slips has never made much sense to me.

There is no need for a release if the edges never engage.

Pivot slipping down the hill indicates that the skis are in a constant state of release, right?

If you are over them and they are under you and they are not stuck in the snow, you can pivot them in any direction you want, when you want.   


That said, if the skis are stuck in the snow for some reason (very shallow pitch, deep snow, sticky snow), then you do have to release them before pivoting them.

If the skis get in front of you, in either understanding of "in front," you'll need to release.  

Maybe you folks out west who have softer snow much of the time need to release.  

I tend to find myself doing pivot slips on icy surfaces; that makes them very very easy.

 

freeski919, you are at Steaux which we all know has superior, super soft snow for New England, yes?  

Is this why you do a release in pivot slips?

Or maybe I do a release and don't know it.  

My definition of release (see other thread about release for full explanation) is that releasing is a process, not an event. As is engagement. Full engagement is edge lock. Full release is a flat ski. We spend most of our time skiing in between those two, between full engagement and full release. When you're side slipping, your ski isn't fully released, nor is it fully engaged. Typically it is engaged enough that a rotary movement would cause a direction change. So that's obviously too engaged to execute a pivot. Therefore, you need to execute some type of releasing movement to reduce the friction of your edges and make it possible to turn the ski without that rotary energy transmitting through your edges. 

 

Is your assertion that a skidded turn doesn't require a release motion of some kind? 

post #48 of 122

No, I don't mean that at all.

 

 

OK, I'll call this a release then.  How long will it take someone to say this is wrong?????  

In a pivot slip, I pull my feet backwards-uphill under me, turning them in reverse, tails leading.

They end pointing in the new direction and I keep slipping.

YMMV.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 11/12/14 at 11:28am
post #49 of 122

No ice today. Just packed transparent powder.

post #50 of 122

Just one quick note, for consideration:

 

Any discussion of "edge release" must eventually delve into an understanding of the concept of "critical edge angle" and "platform angle." (Look 'em up.) With that perspective, we will realize that it has nothing to do with "edge angle" (to the snow surface) at all, and that therefore, many of the points raised above in this discussion (ie. whether the skis are "flat" or on their uphill edges in a sideslip) are entirely moot.

 

Best regards,

Bob

post #51 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
 

Just one quick note, for consideration:

 

Any discussion of "edge release" must eventually delve into an understanding of the concept of "critical edge angle" and "platform angle." (Look 'em up.) With that perspective, we will realize that it has nothing to do with "edge angle" (to the snow surface) at all, and that therefore, many of the points raised above in this discussion (ie. whether the skis are "flat" or on their uphill edges in a sideslip) are entirely moot.

 

Best regards,

Bob

/thread

post #52 of 122

Oh, all right, freeski919!

 

Try post #17 and the ensuing discussion in the thread "What is best edge angle for maximum grip?" from 2012. 

 

"Critical Edge Angle" is a "platform angle" of 90 degrees--the "cusp" between edges gripping and edges releasing their grip.

 

Best regards,

Bob

post #53 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post


Perhaps I don't quite understand what you mean by starting the process with your uphill ski, but I'll say that the warning lights go off for me on that beginning of movement.  Extending off of the uphill ski sounds to me like a rotary push off, and that movement is one that will lead to a fail in PSIA-RM.  As @freeski919
 stated above, the first thing that has to happen is that the hip has to move over the downhill ski to allow the edges to release.  The pivot is a simultaneous rotation of both femurs starting from the feet up.  If you push off of the uphill ski, you are going to have a 1-2 move where first the uphill ski pivots then the downhill ski, and that leads to a divergence of the two skis.

Of course, I could be misunderstanding what you mean by extending off of the uphill ski...

Mike

Mike,
No pushing. No stemming. None of that. It's short leg long leg. My uphill leg is shorter but to get my skis flat I need to get it to the same length(ish) as my down hill leg. All I have to do is extend my uphil leg - make it longer. That will drive my CoM downhill and make my skis flat. That is what I mean by extending off my base of support.

Does that make more sense? If not, I'll try again.

Ken
post #54 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post

Has anyone posted this? 

As someone who's trying (and struggling) to learn this rotary or steering or whatever-the-heck-we-call-it skill, videos of people doing pivot slips with titles saying "not this, not that, not this other thing) aren't very helpful because the movements are too subtle for me to tell how it works. Even the exhortation to start the pivot by turning the legs doesn't help if whatever you're doing incorrectly doesn't permit the skis to turn.

The reason I resurrected this thread is simply to express my gratitude for this discussion. You've helped me regain my composure after an extremely frustrating group lesson. We worked entirely on rotary skills, and on the rare occasion that I could do anything right, the instructor just wouldn't say what I did differently that made it work. Since then I felt like it wasn't even worth trying to practicing if I had no clue what to do, but the different explanations here of how people make the movements happen gives me something I can sink my teeth into.

Apropos of nothing, I also need to figure out how to talk to this instructor about how I learn, because I've got another five weeks of lessons with her. I know I learn differently than most people but am not sure how to explain it. I've have been lucky enough to have had two skiing instructors (unfortunately not conveniently located) who quickly figured out how to communicate things to me, so there must be a name for the method. I've got until Thursday morning to figure it out. If anyone happens to remember a good thread about learning styles, let me know. Meanwhile, wish me luck!!
post #55 of 122
Hey lb. if you can try to describe some of the things this other instructor did or said we can try to put it in a concept or name that perhaps you could then briefly communicate to the new one.
post #56 of 122
Or I'm sure SMJ would be willing to help out in person for an hour if you flew him to Utah.
post #57 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post

Has anyone posted this? 
As someone who's trying (and struggling) to learn this rotary or steering or whatever-the-heck-we-call-it skill, videos of people doing pivot slips with titles saying "not this, not that, not this other thing) aren't very helpful because the movements are too subtle for me to tell how it works. Even the exhortation to start the pivot by turning the legs doesn't help if whatever you're doing incorrectly doesn't permit the skis to turn.

The reason I resurrected this thread is simply to express my gratitude for this discussion. You've helped me regain my composure after an extremely frustrating group lesson. We worked entirely on rotary skills, and on the rare occasion that I could do anything right, the instructor just wouldn't say what I did differently that made it work. Since then I felt like it wasn't even worth trying to practicing if I had no clue what to do, but the different explanations here of how people make the movements happen gives me something I can sink my teeth into.

Apropos of nothing, I also need to figure out how to talk to this instructor about how I learn, because I've got another five weeks of lessons with her. I know I learn differently than most people but am not sure how to explain it. I've have been lucky enough to have had two skiing instructors (unfortunately not conveniently located) who quickly figured out how to communicate things to me, so there must be a name for the method. I've got until Thursday morning to figure it out. If anyone happens to remember a good thread about learning styles, let me know. Meanwhile, wish me luck!!


Couple of things. 

  • A good instructor has an understanding of how each student in a group learns and can adapt the lesson to the individuals in a group.  I was frustrated with an instructor who was (in turn) frustrated with me because "I keep telling you to do THAT and you're not doing it".  My response was, "If I'm not getting it with you telling me the same thing over and over, find a different way of telling me"  I want to a different instructor for a short lesson, just to mix things up, and got THAT in less than an hour because he taught me a different way. This happens, so don't get frustrated, just get a fresh perspective. 
  • Doing Pivot Slips can be daunting.  Maybe you can try dry land exercises to get the sensation you're looking for.  It took me a long time to get pivot slips.  I can thank @Bob Barnes  and @cgeib  for that.   If you're interested in some dry land exercises, I can see what I can do to take some pictures and post something. 
post #58 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


Mike,
No pushing. No stemming. None of that. It's short leg long leg. My uphill leg is shorter but to get my skis flat I need to get it to the same length(ish) as my down hill leg. All I have to do is extend my uphil leg - make it longer. That will drive my CoM downhill and make my skis flat. That is what I mean by extending off my base of support.

Does that make more sense? If not, I'll try again.

Ken

   You do not have to extend to get the skis flat. You are limiting yourself by the belief that these two movements are inexorably linked, they are not. You can release your edges with the feet if you choose. Which do you think is faster or more efficient tipping the feet or moving the entire body? Sounds like a discussion of turning right? It is, all of the same principles apply. All of the movements of turning are extremely easy IF the body is in the right position relative to the feet. If you are uphill of your skis, which you are unless you have really unique ankles, you will push yourself back up the hill initially. You are either doing something else too or are experiencing a far from optimal performance outcome. 

   I would try mixing and matching skills and movements and see if you can achieve the same or different results breaking that perceived link. Try pivot slips with no extension or flexion, with flexion, with extension and flexion. The only pre-requisite is that the COM must move down the hill. For me personally, with both pivot slips and hop turns, a pole plant down the hill helped me maintain movement of my body down the hill sufficiently to be in an advantageous position to rotate the skis and be in a balanced state.

   "Turning movements begin in the feet" sound familiar? How much more of this applies?

A. Flex and extend your ankles, knees, hips, and spine to balance over the whole foot as you control
pressure on the skis so you can flow with the terrain.
1. The outside ski bends from the middle.
2. The shins maintain contact with both boot tongues.
3. The body flows continuously with the skis.
4. The skis flow over the terrain.
5. The skier exhibits fluid motion as a result of continuous and coordinated movement at
joints.
B. Use diagonal (forward and lateral) movements of the feet, legs, and hips to engage and release
the edges of the skis.
1. The skis tip on edge early in a turn.
2. The shins contact both boot shafts forward and laterally.
3. The edges are released and engaged with one smooth movement.
4. Ski lead change occurs before you enter the fall line.
C. Direct your balance to the outside ski in a turn.
1. The outside ski bends more than the inside ski in a turn.
2. The shoulders stay level to the horizon or they level out through the turn.
3. The inside half of the body leads the outside half through the turn.
4. The inside leg is flexed more than the outside leg in a turn.
D. Turn your legs under your body to help you guide the skis through a turn.
1. The legs turn more than the upper body.
2. Turning movements originate in the feet and legs.
3. The upper body is stable and quiet.
E. Direct your upper body and swing your pole to flow with the skis through turns.
1. The hands are forward.
2. The inside hand, shoulder, and hip lead through a turn.
3. The shoulders are forward of the hips.
4. The pole swings smoothly in the intended direction of travel.
5. Vision is forward and the eyes look to the intended direction of travel.
6. Pole touch/plant complement the desired turning outcome.
 

   The pivot slip is not some sort of anomaly, it is a turn like any other, simply on the extreme end of the spectrum in some metrics but, if approached like any other, one can be more successful. 

post #59 of 122

@litterbug, I do wish you were closer so we could ski together more often. We are both so determined to improve our skiing and I think it comes as naturally to you as it does to me! (It really doesn't--it's downright awkward for me at times!) I admire your determination so much. And we both analyze the crap out of things, too! It's a great thing I think!

post #60 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxammo View Post

 

2. The shins maintain contact with both boot tongues.


For me, neither of these is true in a pivot slip. In fact, to avoid a deflection in turning the skis, I find I have to feel the back of the boot, not the tongue. Perhaps it's my boot setup, but pivot slips are a rotary skill, not a pressure skill. Bring pressure into the equation and you'll have a deflection.

Mike
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