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instructors: do you teach adult students to get rid of an arched back? If so... when, and how? - Page 3

post #61 of 73
I have been hesitant beyond suggesting no curing of native posture issues. In mechanical terms the low back / abdomen muscles are only one of many possible reasons for how much pelvic tilt occurs. Natural pronation of the foot, spinal curve, soma type, and even fitness / flexibility levels can severely affect how we carry our core. So indeed the best we can hope to do is suggest long term solutions that include advice from their personal medical professionals about posture and such.
That does not mean retraining a joint usage bias is beyond the scope of our training. What it means is we need to be prudent and investigate why that bias exists in the first place. Then if it still makes sense to suggest a couple reasonable solutions (yes always contemplate more than one option for that one issue) by all means do so.
Perhaps more important is the idea that exercises exist that will expose joint biases and RoM limitations that are relatively easy and low risk to suggest changing.
So does anyone know what the term magnatude means (have you read the new manual yet)?
post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

There is a "famous", in our SS, tale of a frustrated instructor telling his clueless beginner student to "just point your pussy down the fall line".  

 

Not to get all worked up, but do you think some people might feel objectified by that kind of comment?

 

Quote:
One of my good friends routinely tells jokes that might get me fired, it works for him because he is funnier than I am and seems to know how to read his people well enough to not only get away with it, but gets results and great tips.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with expectations. If people expect you to be crass, a lot more is fair game that if people expect you to be an uptight nerd. (As the "uptight nerd", I seem to get myself into a lot of trouble when I speak candidly with people who don't actually know me.)

post #63 of 73

I'm not an instructor, so I submit this hesitantly, but it seems to me that a classic yoga suggestion, having to do with posture, is to consider the pelvis a bowl.  You roll the bowl forward so that nothing slops out.  Of course, the parts come forward with the bowl, but we don't have to talk about that, and yoga instructors have no trouble with it.

post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

Not to get all worked up, but do you think some people might feel objectified by that kind of comment?

 

 

I think a lot of it has to do with expectations. If people expect you to be crass, a lot more is fair game that if people expect you to be an uptight nerd. (As the "uptight nerd", I seem to get myself into a lot of trouble when I speak candidly with people who don't actually know me.)

Seeing as how it really didn't work out well for this person I would have to say yes.  Sometimes that sort of thing works very well.  There really isn't much middle ground when you go "blue".  It's much safer and arguably more professional to stay clean and family oriented.

 

Personally I enjoy crass and anyone who knows me knows this about me.  I generally stay away from it with guests.  I may be a giant nerd, but I 'd like to think that I'm not uptight.

post #65 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I have been hesitant beyond suggesting no curing of native posture issues. In mechanical terms the low back / abdomen muscles are only one of many possible reasons for how much pelvic tilt occurs. Natural pronation of the foot, spinal curve, soma type, and even fitness / flexibility levels can severely affect how we carry our core. So indeed the best we can hope to do is suggest long term solutions that include advice from their personal medical professionals about posture and such.
That does not mean retraining a joint usage bias is beyond the scope of our training. What it means is we need to be prudent and investigate why that bias exists in the first place. Then if it still makes sense to suggest a couple reasonable solutions (yes always contemplate more than one option for that one issue) by all means do so.
Perhaps more important is the idea that exercises exist that will expose joint biases and RoM limitations that are relatively easy and low risk to suggest changing.
So does anyone know what the term magnatude means (have you read the new manual yet)?

It's part of the balancing act and how our upper /lower segments play together. We can try to adapt what we see to what might be possible. Getting a bit more flexibility in the spine is a worthy goal.  Take what they bring and put them on a path to self improvement.

post #66 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

I've seen the tense-and-relax thing work.  I've heard someone call that process "Doing the Slumpomatic."
I forgot about "hollow back."
Figure skaters have to exaggerate that arched back to the max, just like gymnasts.  It must be an aesthetics thing that judges want to stare at.
If Julia can ski as she does with the hollow back, then can't everyone?  I doubt it impedes her angulation one whit, and I bet it doesn't reduce her core's "functional tension" either. 

Does it really need to be "fixed?"  Might it be a men's thing to not arch the back, and when women skiers do it, they are asked to ski more like a man?  I know this is heresy, but might there be some truth to it?

I dont think so at all.

Julia's a fine skier, but if you want to base your skiing on exceptions, I don't know if this will serve you well. Julia's also a speed event specialist these days. No disrespect to you or Julia, but you'd be better off looking at Mikaela.... that includes all the men here on epicski.
post #67 of 73
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
....
Does it really need to be "fixed?"  Might it be a men's thing to not arch the back, and when women skiers do it, they are asked to ski more like a man?  I know this is heresy, but might there be some truth to it?
I dont think so at all.

Julia's a fine skier, but if you want to base your skiing on exceptions, I don't know if this will serve you well. Julia's also a speed event specialist these days. No disrespect to you or Julia, but you'd be better off looking at Mikaela.... that includes all the men here on epicski.

 

Mark, respectfully, I am not basing my skiing on exceptions.  Why would you say that?  

 

I started this thread in order to gather together the thoughts of people posting on this forum, most all of whom have much more experience skiing and teaching than I do.  Since you are referencing me and my skiing expectations (including all the men only as an afterthought), I'll take this opportunity to say that I trust the collective wisdom that says getting rid of the arched back is better than keeping it.  I have some "personal" experience with this.   

 

The post by 4ster referencing Julia's arch in that still image prompted me to play devil's advocate, to see if anyone with any experience thinks along these lines.  In good discussions, diverging thoughts are welcome.  

post #68 of 73
Thread Starter 

          

 


Edited by LiquidFeet - 11/18/14 at 6:09am
post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Mark, respectfully, I am not basing my skiing on exceptions.  Why would you say that?  

  

The post by 4ster referencing Julia's arch in that still image prompted me to play devil's advocate, to see if anyone with any experience thinks along these lines.  In good discussions, diverging thoughts are welcome.  

I saw the photos of Julia as 'exceptions' that show her skiing momentarily with an arched back. Another great example is Bode. He is profoundly exceptional in many ways. So much so that for pretty much anyone to try to ski like he does would be doomed to failure. I mention Mikaela because she's so profoundly technically sound and though we can't ski as well, her technical abilities can be studied and emulated. I can't remember if it was you or 4ster that was wondering if the arched back thing was simply an aesthetic value determined by gender. I don't agree at all with this. Gymnastics are judged subjectively. Ski racing not so much. If it were faster, we'd see all WC ers skiing with a constant arched back. As it is, we can isolate moments of many runs and find whatever it is we want to find an example of. Again, all this is said with respect and in the spirit of 'just throwing some thoughts out there'.
post #70 of 73
I played with the hip flex / spine flex idea with staff today. A stiff, arched back verses a supple slightly rounded back elicited a lot of feedback about fatigue from the staff. I did mention that if anyone had a weak core, or a previous low back problem they might wants to limit how much they play with this drill.
post #71 of 73
Bottom line was each person exhibited different amounts of RoM when it comes to pelvic tilt / arching. Pronation of the foot is an issue worth considering here BTW. Well aligned folks exhibited leg rotary to compensate for the contrived pelvis tilting. Not so well aligned folks exhibited less RoM when playing with pelvic tilt, arched / rolled lower backs.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 11/18/14 at 9:32am
post #72 of 73
Thread Starter 

jasp, the "contrived pelvic tilt" with your group was anterior, right?  They were naturally no-arch people before you had them mess with this?

Did you have any folks in your group who ski normally with an arched back?  

IF so, were you able to compare the two groups?

post #73 of 73
It was only part of a RoM clinic where we explored joint biases as a function of habit and everyone's unique physiology. It may sound cruel but natural selection is responsible for a lot of the success, or failure each student experiences. Curing physical anomolies with prosthetic devices is one key but in the end good skiers inherited a body that when it comes to skiing, is more adept than others. This line of thinking leads us away from fitting them with braces and such and IMO means we need to limit our efforts to force everyone to fit into one particular mold.
So in conclusion it should be obvious that even though we can identify ideal flex patterns, stances, and biomechanically best postures, that does not support the idea that we should say everyone should use the same amount of spine arching. People are built just different enough for that to be not a good practice.
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