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hip dump? - Page 5

post #121 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

 

If green jacket twisted his hips, around the subtalar joint, a little bit to the outside of the turn, he could get his torso more upright, and his bum closer to the snow.  

for non-surgeons like me - does that mean getting the outside knee pointing more to the outside - as the recipe to get hip dumping from a good skier ?

post #122 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

for non-surgeons like me - does that mean getting the outside knee pointing more to the outside - as the recipe to get hip dumping from a good skier ?

Yes, but not only that, you need to follow with your hip. Pointing the knee to the outside can be perfectly fine if you e.g. want to brush the turn or release the ski, but is does not mean it is hip dumping because the femur moves independently of the pelvis.

 

I would think that most people who hip dump do it because the want to point the pelvis outside or get the bum closer to the snow. That the knee points to the outside is just an effect of that.

post #123 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Two things would make the skier on the right look like the skier on the left.

 

If green jacket twisted his hips a little bit to the outside of the turn, he could get his torso more upright.  

Then, if the camera guy moved a little to our right before taking that picture of green jacket, we'd see the outside leg's thigh foreshortened more, and the black legs would look like the yellow legs.

 

What's the same between these two skiers is edge angles of skis, and hips almost on snow.

The big difference at this point in the turn is the amount of counter and angulation.

The inclination of green jacket would be excessive at a slower speed.

 

I'm trusting that the skier on the left knows what he's doing.  He probably was aiming for big edge angles when his speed wasn't so high, so needed the extra counter to get balanced.  

The camera angle was not that great, because it didn't catch the length of his outside leg.  

 

LF I'm glad you can see some differences between the two skiers.  I agree with Zenny and Jamt that I would prefer to see the guy on the left try to look like the guy on the right.  Notice how loaded up the outside ski is for the guy on the right, and his inside skis is not loaded.  He has excellent outside weighting happening there, even though he appears to have far less angulation then the SkiMagMan.  Green Jacket has very appropriate inclination and angulation.  

 

SkiMagMan, on the other hand, has spray coming off the inside ski and is clearly too far inside, even with pretty extreme levels of angulation.  what does that tell you?

 

I do not agree with you at all that a different camera angle would show a shorter thigh for the green guy or a longer leg for SkiMagMan.  He is WAY more stacked then SkiMagMan, his leg is long, SkiMagMan's is not.

post #124 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Yes, but not only that, you need to follow with your hip. Pointing the knee to the outside can be perfectly fine if you e.g. want to brush the turn or release the ski, but is does not mean it is hip dumping because the femur moves independently of the pelvis.

 

I would think that most people who hip dump do it because the want to point the pelvis outside or get the bum closer to the snow. That the knee points to the outside is just an effect of that.

yeah, i think hip dumping and "excessive counter" usually go hand in hand... although in the case of the blue jacketed contortionist above it's hard to tell...

post #125 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

 

SkiMagMan, on the other hand, has spray coming off the inside ski and is clearly too far inside, even with pretty extreme levels of angulation.  what does that tell you?

 

I do not agree with you at all that a different camera angle would show a shorter thigh for the green guy or a longer leg for SkiMagMan.  He is WAY more stacked then SkiMagMan, his leg is long, SkiMagMan's is not.

SkiMagContortionistMan has to be on hero snow on the flats, as there's no way he could put up with any speed in that position.... while the green guy is ripping on a blue/black if the photographer was a level headed bloke...

post #126 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

yeah, i think hip dumping and "excessive counter" usually go hand in hand... although in the case of the blue jacketed contortionist above it's hard to tell...

 

well what I would like to say again is that counter is often blamed for the problem, but I don't see it as the core reason.  I think we often observe visually some frankenstein counter associated with hip dumping, but as an outcome, not a driving force behind the hip dump.  As they fall inside, their reptillian brain takes over and tries to stay in balance, which involves excessive angulation and counter.  But I believe its a fallacy to blame counter for developing the hip dump to begin with.  Properly applied counter will help PREVENT a hip dump!

 

For one thing, it will facilitate them counter-balancing better from earlier on, never allowing the hip to fall inside to begin with.  The body stacks up better.  But counter also helps facilitate pronation/eversion in the outside ankle, and JAMT has some great things to say about that.

post #127 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post

By the way, close fitting undergarments give a fair amount of proprioceptive feedback.

 

These are known as "magic underpants". Sorry, it's a Utah joke!:D

post #128 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post
 

 

These are known as "magic underpants". Sorry, it's a Utah joke!:D

 

Mitt had a pair of those, I understand.

post #129 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

well what I would like to say again is that counter is often blamed for the problem, but I don't see it as the core reason.  I think we often observe visually some frankenstein counter associated with hip dumping, but as an outcome, not a driving force behind the hip dump.  As they fall inside, their reptillian brain takes over and tries to stay in balance, which involves excessive angulation and counter.  But I believe its a fallacy to blame counter for developing the hip dump to begin with.  Properly applied counter will help PREVENT a hip dump!

 

For one thing, it will facilitate them counter-balancing better from earlier on, never allowing the hip to fall inside to begin with.  The body stacks up better.  But counter also helps facilitate pronation/eversion in the outside ankle, and JAMT has some great things to say about that.


Well, some "classic" hip dumpers counter excessively first so they can drop their butt down (like sitting on a bench).  Other hip dumpers simply actively extend the stance leg to push their hips across.  They may or may not counter excessively.  In either case, the stance leg will be fairly rigid.  I don't know that precisely defining what a "hip dump" is matters.  In the case of the original photo, what is worth noting is that both legs are flexed and there is no counter.  Both of those things would argue against the skier being guilty of hip dumping, but by the same token there are clearly problems with the skiing.  Really, that is what matters.

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding what JAMT is trying to say about the subtalar joint with respect to this conversation.  That joint does not rotate along the transverse axis so the hips most definitely do not rotate around it.  It might be true that you can induce some rotation of the subtalar joint by rotation the femurs, but again I'm not sure what the actual point of that would be relative to a conversation about hip dumping--other than to make it more complicated.  The point of counteracting is to counteract, or offset the rotation that you get in the femur and the tibia from tipping your feet.  If you apply the right amount of counteracting hip movements, you do that and you end up skeletally stacked.  I'm skeptical that the subtalar joint is involved in anything other than a superficial manner and I'm even more skeptical that there is any value in mentioning it specifically.

 

Incidentally, I don't consider pronation to be synonymous with eversion.  Eversion is the movement of rolling the foot so that the sole faces outward and is a necessary movement for skiing.  Pronation is a condition of the foot that negatively impacts skiing.  A pronating foot will not toe-off when walking and will be identified by at least 3 degrees of calcaneal eversion.  When a skier with a pronating foot tries to evert (roll to big toe edge), the ankle will generally roll inward resulting in the heel pushing outward and the tails of the ski washing out.  Skiers with moderate to severely pronating feet generally require proper footbed support in order for them to be able to ski well.

 

I see two basic problems with the skier in question.  One is the lack of counteracting which results in a weak, non-skeletally aligned stance and also contributes to the fore-aft issues.  With proper counteracting, the stance leg would certainly be longer and stronger and the inside half would be moved forward.  The second problem, which BTS may be intuitively grasping, is the fact that the skier in question has his butt on the snow with the skis pointed down the fall line.  At that point, he has exhausted all of his ski performance and the turn is parked.  All he can do in the remainder of the turn is ride edges.  By "dumping" into the turn so early, he has no room left to continue increasing his angles. 

 

I laughed at the comment that maybe he was trying to imitate the Bode Miller picture, because that was my first thought as well.  This is "hey dude, look at me" skiing, rather than a demonstration of actual technical ability.  Angles matter, but what matters more is the *change* in angles.  Once the ski stops tipping and reaches its final angle, the turn needs to be over.  Of course, in order to build high angles with the right timing, you have to have the right movements to be able to establish and maintain balance at the top of the arc so the turn entry can be finely controlled.  In any event, skiers who can put their butt on the snow generally aren't doing it for show.  They are trying to get maximum performance out of the ski and the big angles are a side-effect of that.

 

I really liked the side by side comparison.  The skier on the right is getting ski performance.  While counterbalance and counteracting may not be what you would want for demonstration purposes, it appears from the bend in the ski that, at least at that point in the turn, they are sufficient for that skier.  Seeing how the turn completed would be necessary to know for certain whether the upper body mechanics were truly solid, but as a single image, I much prefer the skier on the right.

 

The other comment I found interesting in this thread was someone commenting on how, while they liked teaching skiing from the feet up, some students just couldn't learn that way.  Funny to read that in a thread that mentions the subtalar joint, because one of the most interesting things about the biomechanics of the feet with respect to skiing is that if they are not properly, or correctly supported so that leverage can be applied within the boot, skiing with the feet is impossible.  Many skiers will have boots that are too large and many others will have footbeds that will prevent proper skiing movements.  Still others will have problems with skeletal alignment.  It isn't that those skiers can't learn to ski with their feet, it's that their equipment won't let them.  Understanding alignment issues is absolutely required training for all coaches in my organization for precisely those reasons.


Edited by geoffda - 11/4/14 at 1:12pm
post #130 of 135
Real quick here, I think my dumping slightly diminishes TRUE ca as the turn progresses comment is very important here. SINCE the femur/knee point more towards the outside, any pelvic rotation around that femur head is less than it would be than if one applied the same amount of ca around the head of a femur that is more inline with the direction of travel. So there is actually LESS separation despite the appearance of MORE separation. Also, an improper realease creates a tension around the subtalar joint such that it is not free to tip as far and instead of being able to invert the inside to a great degre you'll have to manually force it to because what it is wanting to do in this scenario is actually pronate slightly...

So yes, while it may BEGIN with lots o counter it does not end up that way due to a bad or no releas IMO.
zenny
post #131 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
 

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding what JAMT is trying to say about the subtalar joint with respect to this conversation.  That joint does not rotate along the transverse axis so the hips most definitely do not rotate around it.  It might be true that you can induce some rotation of the subtalar joint by rotation the femurs, but again I'm not sure what the actual point of that would be relative to a conversation about hip dumping--other than to make it more complicated.  The point of counteracting is to counteract, or offset the rotation that you get in the femur and the tibia from tipping your feet.  If you apply the right amount of counteracting hip movements, you do that and you end up skeletally stacked.  I'm skeptical that the subtalar joint is involved in anything other than a superficial manner and I'm even more skeptical that there is any value in mentioning it specifically.

 

Geoff, its not how the joint moves, it is about how the parts connected to it moves.

Consider this picture of the subtalar joint:

From the picture it is clear that when you tip your feet the lower leg rotates in the transverse plane.

When you evert the foot the lower leg rotates inwards and when you invert the foot it rotates outwards.

if the knee and ankle is bent the lower leg will also cause the skiboot to tip. This is the very basic function of how you tip your skis with the feet.

 

Now, relating to hip dump. If the foot is inverted and the leg is bent the lower leg will rotate outwards and since the femur is connected via the knee also the femur will point outwards. Now if you let the hip follow that femur movement without movement around the femur head you have hip dumping. If you let the femur rotate in the hip socket you have a de-edging or releasing movement.

 

If you ski by tipping your feet you cannot hip dump because that moves the femur in the opposite direction. If you start your turn by hip angulation and hip dumping it will not help to tip the feet because that joint is overpowered.


Edited by Jamt - 11/4/14 at 2:28pm
post #132 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Geoff, its not how the joint moves, it is about how the parts connected to it moves.

Consider this picture of the subtalar joint:

From the picture it is clear that when you tip your feet the lower leg rotates in the transverse plane.

When you evert the foot the lower leg rotates inwards and when you invert the foot it rotates outwards.

if the knee and ankle is bent the lower leg will also cause the skiboot to tip. This is the very basic function of how you tip your skis with the feet.

 

No relating to hip dump. If the foot is inverted and the leg is bent the lower leg will rotate outwards and since the femur is connected via the knee also the femur will point outwards. Now if you let the hip follow that femur movement without movement around the femur head you have hip dumping. If you let the femur rotate in the hip socket you have a de-edging or releasing movement.

 

If you ski by tipping your feet you cannot hip dump because that moves the femur in the opposite direction. If you start your turn by hip angulation and hip dumping it will not help to tip the feet because that joint is overpowered.

 

Thanks for clarifying JAMT.  Yes, talking about the subtalar joint in the context of initiating movements in the kinetic chain makes perfect sense and I agree with what you are saying.

post #133 of 135
Thread Starter 

Geoffda,  you're saying a few contradictory things, but I think we are probably generally in agreement, let me respond to some of what you said...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
 

Well, some "classic" hip dumpers counter excessively first so they can drop their butt down (like sitting on a bench).  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
 

I see two basic problems with the skier in question.  One is the lack of counteracting which results in a weak, non-skeletally aligned stance and also contributes to the fore-aft issues.  With proper counteracting, the stance leg would certainly be longer and stronger and the inside half would be moved forward.  

 

In the first bit you implied that counter-action causes the hip dumping and in the second bit you say counter-acting would prevent hip dumping.  Its not congruent.  I agree with your second comment, not your first.  

 

I know a lot of hip dumpers that do it without counter, like SkiMagMan, for example, he is not countered if you look at the relationship of his pelvis compared to his femur.  And personally I think the radical hip dumping where it looks like they are sitting on a bench on the inside, is kind of rare but is certainly screwed up for a lot of reasons, but it still comes back that early CA is a good thing to PREVENT hip dumping, not the other way around.  A hip dumper of course mis-uses CA and makes their situation all that much worse.  But let's not demonize counter as the root cause of the hip dump, because its not.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
 

I'm not sure I'm understanding what JAMT is trying to say about the subtalar joint with respect to this conversation.  That joint does not rotate along the transverse axis so the hips most definitely do not rotate around it.  It might be true that you can induce some rotation of the subtalar joint by rotation the femurs, but again I'm not sure what the actual point of that would be relative to a conversation about hip dumping--other than to make it more complicated.  The point of counteracting is to counteract, or offset the rotation that you get in the femur and the tibia from tipping your feet.  If you apply the right amount of counteracting hip movements, you do that and you end up skeletally stacked.  I'm skeptical that the subtalar joint is involved in anything other than a superficial manner and I'm even more skeptical that there is any value in mentioning it specifically.

 

I will let JAMT respond as to what he meant, but if you look at the feet of SkiMagMan you can see some funky stuff going on rotationally with the feet and inversion of the ankle is combined with it.  The point I tried to make earlier, which I think you may have missed, is that counter-action improves eversion of the outside ankle.  It strengthens the stack, but specifically onto the inside edge through eversion.  You more or less said the same thing in your second comment about the benefits of CA.

 

A lot of people on this board interchange the words pronation with eversion (incorrectly I agree), I realize full well they are not exactly the same thing, but in the past there have been lengthy threads discussing "pronation" being improved by counter-action and even though its actually eversion that is being improved, if you want to search back in the forum you have to search for the word pronation and counter together.  Cheers though, they are not quite the same, agree!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
 

 the skier in question has his butt on the snow with the skis pointed down the fall line.  At that point, he has exhausted all of his ski performance and the turn is parked.  All he can do in the remainder of the turn is ride edges.  By "dumping" into the turn so early, he has no room left to continue increasing his angles. 

 

No argument there!

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
 

The other comment I found interesting in this thread was someone commenting on how, while they liked teaching skiing from the feet up, some students just couldn't learn that way.  Funny to read that in a thread that mentions the subtalar joint, because one of the most interesting things about the biomechanics of the feet with respect to skiing is that if they are not properly, or correctly supported so that leverage can be applied within the boot, skiing with the feet is impossible.  Many skiers will have boots that are too large and many others will have footbeds that will prevent proper skiing movements.  Still others will have problems with skeletal alignment.  It isn't that those skiers can't learn to ski with their feet, it's that their equipment won't let them.  Understanding alignment issues is absolutely required training for all coaches in my organization for precisely those reasons.

 

Yep.  Maybe the SkiMagMan needs some boot work too.  :D 

post #134 of 135
Thread Starter 
Also, the sit on a bench kind of guy you are talking about, what you would probably see is that their pelvis would not actually be countered relative to their femur.  This is what Zenny was trying to point out.  They would twist their upper body to the side and their knees go along with it.  Its not counter-action.  Its not really counter at all.  Its just facing sideways relative to the direction the skis are pointed.  Look at JAMT's photo of the guy in black and you can see it in SkiMagMan also
post #135 of 135

So, what is your analysis of this picture?

 

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