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on newbies' reticence to speak up

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
just a thought spurred by the discussion on where to hold the gathering.

i remember when i first found epic and was at first reluctant to speak up, as i felt like a visitor and that i should first get a feel for the "vibe" and personalities, etc.

i just hope that lurkers and those new to this site who entertain even the slightest notion of checking into the gathering, or speaking up about it, do. it truly is a welcoming environment and crowd. add skiing to the mix and the ice tends to melt.

(also, despite rumors to the contrary, ignited by mostly good-natured scrumming between epic and some other ski forum..., there are plenty of gapic, er, EPIC bears who can flatout RIP on skis. if you want some schooling, there's some to be had.)

I realize also that, it being summer, activity on the board is substantially diminished. but i know some of you are out there, so...think about getting to Gathering '04.
post #2 of 28
Yeah, I think ryan has a good point...

Not everyone is as eager to speak up as fox over there, even though they probably have something more important to say...

Not to get too sidetracked...Speak up, and go to the gathering and rip.

Yes, I've personally seen a bear rip the schit out of the mountain...I've been schooled myself.
post #3 of 28
Agreed on both ryan's and bicyclekick's comments, please speak up. If you are still not comfortable with this, please feel free to send me a Private Message (PM), or one to gonzostrike, PowDigger or AC himself.

All levels from beginner to pro are welcome to the Gathering next winter. We are working on prices, and hopefully, this can be a very economic trip!
post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 
Alta makes the most excellent point. Skiers of all levels all levels all levels are EXTREMELY welcome. Skiers of every skill level found no shortage of company for their ski days, whether beginners or superduper(phantom) experts, and all in-between. Please don't let your ability level be a factor; EVERYone is encouraged. You WILL find "ski company"!
post #5 of 28
mmmmmmmmkaaaaaaayyyyyy...

now, let's hear some nominations!

ryan is correct, you will miss opportunities for learning and friendship if you simply lurk.

AltaSkier also is correct - we don't require a demonstrated level of expertise as a prerequisite to posting, to being taken seriously, or to anything else.

if you don't jump in with both feet, you're likely to be marginalized by the momentum or lack thereof.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #6 of 28
Yes, please join in, I could do with someone interesting to read instead of these guys.


And I hope to see a lot of new faces buying me beers in Snowbird...

S
post #7 of 28
Hey Fox, I bought you a beer last year!



(psssssssst... its a Miller High Life Light if you can't read the can....)

I plan to drink many a beer next year!!! Now, whos with me? And where do we want to do it at? [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

EDIT: In case your wondering, that picture was taken in my basement, where Fox crashed for 2 weeks, at no charge but a few beers and a dinner or two. I had never met him, he told me to look for the strange looking bald dood at the airport. What I'm getting at, people around here are pretty friendly and will go to great lengths to help each other out. I now consider Fox a good friend.

[ June 19, 2003, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: AltaSkier ]
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by AltaSkier:
Hey Fox, I bought you a beer last year!



(psssssssst... its a Miller High Life Light if you can't read the can....)

I plan to drink many a beer next year!!! Now, whos with me? And where do we want to do it at? [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

EDIT: In case your wondering, that picture was taken in my basement, where Fox crashed for 2 weeks, at no charge but a few beers and a dinner or two. I had never met him, he told me to look for the strange looking bald dood at the airport. What I'm getting at, people around here are pretty friendly and will go to great lengths to help each other out. I now consider Fox a good friend.
Miller high life...no good friend would give one to a friend...

Alta also hadn't met me, and he donated a half day to showin me around alta. You know those beers I said I'd buy you when I turned 21 (20 now )...I just might have to make them high-lifes...fox is payin me off to give you some of your own medicine...

Blah to school, as it may keep me from making this gathering...As always, time will tell.
post #9 of 28
Ah yes, Miller High Life Light, here are a few of my suggested straplines for it, so far Miller haven't chosen to use them:

"Miller High Life Light: The Pocket Rocket of Beers"

(I guess someone else already had "The king of beers", True.)

"Miller High Life Light: Pour it straight down the toilet - cut out the middle man, and reduce the nagging created by splashback."

"Guests outstaying their welcome? Why not give them Miller High Life Light? Solves the problem in 9 out of 10 cases."

"Do you live in a state that doesn't serve a good pint of Guinness? Well, try Miller High Life Light before a night out, after that, anything tastes better"

"Remember what happened to the Duff factory when they started producing Duff Light? Let that be a warning to you, Miller, stop it now, or it will end in doom"
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by AltaSkier:
I now consider Fox a good friend.
Are you sure you've met Fox? He must have been on his best behaviour!!
post #11 of 28
Loke,
I think Alta means he sees me as good entertainment. And anyway, just cause the last time I was in Guildford I woke up in your sister's bed, doesn't mean I'm like that with everyone!

S
post #12 of 28
Well yeah but when she'd come home and seen you in her bed she ran all the way to Newcastle. Next time you think about sleeping in her bed don't cos it cost her a fortune to get all the way up there!!
post #13 of 28
Fox, perhaps you have not read the Secret Men's Handbook?

Rule 6. Moaning about the brand of free beer in a friend's fridge is forbidden. Complain at will if the temperature is unsuitable.

kick, the MHLL was in my fridge, I don't care, I don't complain about free beer. Thanks for the gift in advance!

All of those considering coming, please voice your comments/concerns/desires etc... They will be noted.

I look forward to seeing old and new friends in 2004, no matter where we end up!
post #14 of 28
Be very aware that Epicski posters are dangerous people.
post #15 of 28
...but can be sedated by the application of beer.

S
post #16 of 28
or just made to smell better ...
post #17 of 28
The topic of this thread belies the good natured ribbing of 'the usual suspects' that it has evolved into. I'll throw my $.02 in which I'm guessing will stir the pot.

My early experience with this board is that a lot of people use it as ego boosting competition. As I peruse the names on this thread I don't see anyone here that I recall using the board for that purpose. A very early post for me saw someone asking questions about my very home, it went without response for a day or two. Although feeling reticent I thought, well I certainly have the expertise this fellow seeks and he deserves an answer, and I offered the information he sought. In short order came another response written in a way that dismissed my opinion and made some recommondations I couldn't abide. I clarified a couple of points which prompted a repsonse (in an effort to further diminish my opinion) that highlighted this poster's vastly superior qualifications.

I have never spoken on this board or any other of my qualifications and didn't think that was necessary to prove a valid opinion with a basis in logic and knowledge. In this case I felt compelled to point out my experience in the field and region was literally 10 times what she boasted of as well as current which hers was not. I also pointed out that I didn't appreciate my offering of sought after advice be turned into a competition. This prompted someone else to chime in and admonish me that she was only trying to help. I saw it as she was only trying to help feed her own ego but maybe I took it too personally.

I also post on Powder and a big difference I see is almost always when I and others offer an opinion there subsequent posts will acknowledge that opinion and go on to support, refute or add to it. Over here people will often post pretty much the same thing but ignore that it's already been said and present it like 'they have the answer' like it was their exclusive original thought. I don't take these things personnally but I feel it lacks courtesy at best and I really question the motivation behind the approach.

I had one fellow here refer to me by name and then imply things of me that were totally untrue, at the end of his 'rant' he actually wrote that it made him feel better. In another thread I pointed out that I didn't post here to make myself feel better but if that's what wound his clock so be it. This fellow who had used my name and then implied things I had never done then had the gall to accuse me of 'personal attacks'. I'm not sure what he thought using my name in a libellous manner was.

This basic difference I find between here and Powder.com explains a lot about posting retincence I think. I also believe it explains a lot of the animosity felt towards this board over on powder. The whole JONG thing on Powder can be juvenile and overdone BUT at least it's up front. The approach relies too much on who has been on the board longest but it's part of the character as it were and an accepted tradition. The style of denigrating fellow posters here is often a very passive aggressive approach that I feel is no less juvenile and I personally find more offensive.

Again as I look at the names posting on this thread I don't see those that I believe use this technique and there are very many appreciative and courteous posters on this board. However in reference to this thread's title this is my opinion on one reason people often lurk and don't chime in.

Diminished summer interest is probably all that makes this topic even approachable but it remains to be seen what kind of can of worms this opinion opens.
post #18 of 28
Milller High Life Light has a Suck Point of 0.

Suck Point is defined as the number of minutes a beer can stay palatable if opened in 90 degree weather. There was some discussion on an unnamed radio station as to whether or not the black MGD cans heated the beer faster rather than a light colored can.

The term Suck Point was born to determine the time it took for a beer to become undrinkable. Therefore, a Guinness had a Suck Point of 27 minutes, a Bud Light had a Suck Point of 12 minutes, and MHLL has a Suck Point of 0, meaning it was best if opened and poured straight off into a drain.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by L7:

My early experience with this board is that a lot of people use it as ego boosting competition. As I peruse the names on this thread I don't see anyone here that I recall using the board for that purpose. A very early post for me saw someone asking questions about my very home, it went without response for a day or two. Although feeling reticent I thought, well I certainly have the expertise this fellow seeks and he deserves an answer, and I offered the information he sought. In short order came another response written in a way that dismissed my opinion and made some recommondations I couldn't abide. I clarified a couple of points which prompted a repsonse (in an effort to further diminish my opinion) that highlighted this poster's vastly superior qualifications.

I have never spoken on this board or any other of my qualifications and didn't think that was necessary to prove a valid opinion with a basis in logic and knowledge. In this case I felt compelled to point out my experience in the field and region was literally 10 times what she boasted of as well as current which hers was not. I also pointed out that I didn't appreciate my offering of sought after advice be turned into a competition. This prompted someone else to chime in and admonish me that she was only trying to help. I saw it as she was only trying to help feed her own ego but maybe I took it too personally.

I also post on Powder ....
I STILL don't get what the problem was????

[img]smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/angel.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/angel.gif[/img]
If anything, newcomers to Epicski should realize that although some of these flame wars may take the spot light, in the long run, they are not the gist of what this forum is about. I have met, in person, over 60 participants of this forum in both the eastern and western US and Canada, and we all get along quite well.

Also, any new skiers should not be worried that they will be personally insulted for their lack of skill if they were to meet with other forum members in person. Quite the contrary, I have found that our more advanced skiers are really generous in the help they give to the less skilled skiers in public gatherings. Having been the recipient of an absolutely EPIC day at Snowbasin with Tog, Pierre, Si, Bob Peters, Arcmeister, JimmyD and a few others, I can say for a fact that this is true. The TRUELY excellent skiers have no need for attitude!

Without being rude and linking to another forum, any insults you get here for being a newbie or an intermediate are usually just a means of someone getting their bragging rights somewhere else, kind of like the bully on the block syndrome, {but we all know what that's REALLY about, eh? }
So, in a round about way, I second Ryan's emotion, Let's hear from you, and I hope you will join us! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ June 21, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Lisamarie ]
post #20 of 28
L7-

Everyone has a different experience. It's like childbirth. It's all the same thing, but it's different for each individual.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Lisamarie:
....[/qb]
I STILL don't get what the problem was????

The problem was the tone of dismissal of my opinion. Maybe I was being oversensitive to it as I had been lurking on the board for a while and noted and disliked this approach. Regardless it was exactly the approach I had seen as pervasive with many posters here and the one that made me reticent to post. That is why I brought it up in this thread but not to revisit the event.

Without being rude and linking to another forum, any insults you get here for being a newbie or an intermediate are usually just a means of someone getting their bragging rights somewhere else, kind of like the bully on the block syndrome, {but we all know what that's REALLY about, eh? }
[/QB][/quote]

While I may be a newbie to the board I am a long way from a newbie to the sport and a long way from an intemediate. This is part of what I don't get, why someone would make that assumption first. I am aware of what these things say of people's need to bully and appreciate that you welcome hearing from me. In fact I have continued to post when I felt inclined. Fact remains that your initial post directed at me did little to extend that welcome and the one upmanship shown by many on this board is in my opinion why many do not speak up.

Just opening the thought up for consideration. As I said there are many courteous, thoughtful posters on this forum, many of whom you've named. There is also a pervasive tendancy by many others to take a different approach in my opinion which does not lead to open discussion or involvement by many.
post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by L7:
...there are many courteous, thoughtful posters on this forum...
L7,
My New Year's resolution was to be more tolerant of idiots.
We're half way through the year, and in the main I have been successful.

Speaking of idiots, here's a definition I heard the other day about drivers:

There are two types of drivers on the roads today:
1. The idiots who drive slower than me
2. The maniacs who drive faster than me.

S
post #23 of 28
"While I may be a newbie to the board I am a long way from a newbie to the sport and a long way from an intemediate. This is part of what I don't get, why someone would make that assumption first. I am aware of what these things say of people's need to bully and appreciate that you welcome hearing from me. In fact I have continued to post when I felt inclined. Fact remains that your initial post directed at me did little to extend that welcome and the one upmanship shown by many on this board is in my opinion why many do not speak up"

I was not referring to you as a newbie, for you have done much to make it clear that you are not. Since this thread was directed at newbies, I was speaking to them. If I were a new skier reading some of these threads, I may not only find attending a gathering intimidating, I probably would not even want to post. In a different thread, we were told that anyone who skis blue groomers is basically a dork who has no right to be on the mountain, and the author of post later had a Bevis and Butthead style snicker about it on another forum.

As for your statement:
"The problem was the tone of dismissal of my opinion. Maybe I was being oversensitive to it as I had been lurking on the board for a while and noted and disliked this approach. Regardless it was exactly the approach I had seen as pervasive with many posters here and the one that made me reticent to post. That is why I brought it up in this thread but not to revisit the event."

I still don't see where it was dismissive, and if it appeared that way, I apologize. Dismissive would be saying "you don't know what you are talking about". I don't see where anyone said that.
post #24 of 28
Posting on this forum can be a real touchy situation at best. I do hope more of the 'lurkers' will jump in as time goes by. I allowed my feelings to get 'bruised' a time or two early on, but I came up with something that I have found works well for me most of the time.

I have been consciously dividing the posts on this forum into three different categories.

1.) Intellectual

2.) Emotional

3.) Recreational

I try to give just respect to the first two categories, and find that most people respect those boundaries also.

However, I do find the posts that I call 'Recreational Posts', pretty interesting. I concluded beforehand that many who jump in on them are ready to 'take the gloves off', so it only makes sense to have the same attitude. It is sometimes a bit like sandlot football. ..You play within a general framework of rules, but reserve the right to 'pull a punch' if the play gets too rough. -- It's all about entertainment!

I'm not too sure either myself, or anyone else here can make all the right calls on what position a person might take on a post; but I'm guessing that much of the conflict comes from a person seeing their post in the first or second group, and the responder seeing it in the third group.

The days of all-out personal attacks seem to have diminished over the years, thanks to AC and Dchan. I hope some of you new folks will jump in and give us all a chance to find out just how unique and helpful your own perspective is.

[img]smile.gif[/img]
post #25 of 28
By Feal:
"However, I do find the posts that I call 'Recreational Posts', pretty interesting. I concluded beforehand that many who jump in on them are ready to 'take the gloves off', so it only makes sense to have the same attitude. It is sometimes a bit like sandlot football. ..You play within a general framework of rules, but reserve the right to 'pull a punch' if the play gets too rough. -- It's all about entertainment!

I'm not too sure either myself, or anyone else here can make all the right calls on what position a person might take on a post; but I'm guessing that much of the conflict comes from a person seeing their post in the first or second group, and the responder seeing it in the third group. "

That's one of the most insightful things that has been said about some of the flame wars here. Its hard to read tone over a message forum. As corney as they may seem, that's why emoticoms are helpful. One thing I had to learn the hard way, irony does not translate well.
I've even gotten a few "slaps on the wrist" at work, for ironic responses to work emails that other employees took to personally.
But if I were to SAY the EXACT same thing at a staff meeting, people would find it hilariously funny.
post #26 of 28
Confucious say:

"Man with alligator skin is happier than man with pu$$y skin"
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Lisamarie:
"
I still don't see where it was dismissive, and if it appeared that way, I apologize. Dismissive would be saying "you don't know what you are talking about". I don't see where anyone said that.
Let me clarify one thing. As I look back on the link you provided I see although I really jumped after your post it wasn't really yours that got under my skin. Still offering that I may have been over sensitive or over reacted, it was the one following yours. With my answer you definitely did get caught in the crossfire in that I responded to what you said in my snit. Your post in fact simply offered some helpful additional advice. I apologize that you were caught in that, I didn't even recall that as your first post directed at me. The post I thought was first directed at me was where you jumped to defense which I now see was a response to my mention of your post. The one that got me was the 'listen to me I taught 2 years there'. Maybe you still think I over reacted but at any rate that over reaction should not have been directed at you.
post #28 of 28
Cool!
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