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Location for 2004 Gathering - Page 5

post #121 of 199
Thread Starter 
Gonz, I'm sorry, but that, and your recent posts, are totally inappropriate in my opinion.
You're entitled to an opinion, just be sure to distinguish it from facts.

You accepted the job of helping choose a location for the Gathering. That does not give you licence to attack other members of this forum.
Attack? Whom did I attack, Mike? Name the person that I attacked.

The Gathering should be a joyous occasion where people who love the sport can meet and share. Comments like the one above totally poison any joy I personally feel in anticipating such a Gathering.
Paula's Ski Lovers still accepts new members, Mike.

In accepting this responsibility, it seems to me that part of your job is to make people feel welcome and valued.
What seems is not always what is, Mike. FYI, this isn't the EpicSki Academy we're planning. We're not aiming for a profit, nor a feel-good hugfest. Sorry if that's your preferred type of gathering, but Paula's will be having one soon, I'm sure. Our gathering is for DEDICATED SKIERS, not crybabies.

You have no right to scold or denigrate anyone who posts here.
You have no right to tell me what to do, Mike. As for the "scolding," whom did I scold? Please name someone.

I re-read the suggestions made preceding your comments. None were deserving of your unpleasant reply.
In your mind, I guess that's the case. You don't know all the facts, though -- do you? Have you seen all the PMs and e-mails shot round to me, AltaSkier and PowDigger? I didn't think so.

People were constructive, giving ideas, opinions, feedback, concerns they might have: all things which are appropriate.
Appropriate for what? for whom? YOUR preferred style of gathering, or the Committee's? I didn't see you volunteer to plan the Gathering. Stop complaining.

Part of being a good leader or organizer is knowing how to get people to feel respected and valued.
We don't live in Utopia. Respect and value are different things. Respect is EARNED. Values can differ. You are in no position to mandate my giving ANYONE either thing.

No leader of any worth belittles the people he/she is designated to work with.
I agree. Now, how does that relate to the Gathering?

You have a rsponsibility to the people on this forum not to let annoyance or pettiness enter into your dealings with them.
Like most phone lines and streets, it's 2-way, Mike. Think about it.

If helping plan the Gathering engenders such anger in you, I respectfully suggest you relinquish the responsibility.
Aaaaahhhh, now comes the source of your whining. You think I'm angry. You're wrong. Accept that. Move on.

This forum is not a courtroom where combative personalities get a chance to attack others with impunity.
Sticks and stones, Mike. But for fun's sake, let me offer this: give me another anti-lawyer comment and I'll make you cry. Promise.

If that is what you bring to the table, perhap you should leave it. I believe you owe us an apology.
No thanks, I have other plans.

Also, at this point, it appears to that the location has come down to Snowbasin/Snowbird/SLC, or Jackson.
If you knew how to read, you would see that the process closes June 30. Can you wait 5 days, Mike? Come on, don't be so petulant.

I would appreciate a decision from the Committee, and a bit of pleasure in the prospect. Thanks.
Can't help you get pleasure, Mike. You'll get a decision in due time, though... I promise.

Try to have a day, will you? Thanks.

post #122 of 199
Gonz, your reply speaks for itself. I can see how much thought and consideration you gave to my perceptions of the impression you are making. From your answer, anyone who questions your right to vent on members of this forum (including me now) has no right to be here. Case closed. I didn't realize that.

Oh, and it's not "anti-lawyer" to recognize that there are those in that profession, particularly litigators, who answer any question with an attack...as I have been answered.

Again, I didn't realize that was part of being in this forum.

Thank you.
post #123 of 199
Thread Starter 
Mike, try to understand satire. You'll be happier in the long run, I promise. Also, I suggest you tell the laundry to stop starching your boxers.

post #124 of 199
Yes, Gonz, I understand satire. I also know that every schoolyard bully always says, "Aw, I was just kidding. Can't you take a joke?" after being pulled off the person he attacked.

Your comments to me and others on this forum are inappropriate.

[ June 25, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: mike_m ]
post #125 of 199
I'd like to slide this in....

Ryan and mike_m have the right ideas. Thanks guys, for being decent human beings.

Gonzo--we can't read your mind....Just what you write.
post #126 of 199
Gonzo, Powdigger, and AltaSkier have done a great job of picking up the ball and organizing the gathering planning (both the discussion and the behind the scenes logistics). Their work is to be commended. Thanks guys!

On an entirely separate issue, I agree with mike_m -- let's continue this discussion with respect for others. It is not "whining" just because someone disagrees with you.

I have not had a chance to read this thread beyond the last few posts, and need to do so to contribute to the substantive discussion that is going on. We will need to make a decision sometime soon, and as is always the case when there are divergent views, the decision will not necessarily be everyone's first choice. Keep the comments coming (on the venue selection), so all voices are heard.

post #127 of 199
Can I respectfully DE-submit Jackson Hole from consideration?

My impression (I've been wrong lots o' times before and it won't bother me at all to be wrong this time) is that a lot of the acrimony here stems from a pretty pronounced rift among the members.

There are a number of people who really want the Gathering to occur in Jackson Hole. They have some extremely good reasons for it to be here.

There are many other people who *don't* want it to be here - again for very good reasons.

If you guys want to have maximum attendance, hold it in Salt Lake. By piggybacking it on the Academy, you'll have more people willing and able to join in - at least for Saturday.

Jackson will always be a place that requires a fair amount of commitment and dedication from its visitors. We actually kind of like it that way. I hope I'm not conveying a "testosterone-attitude" with that comment, but those of us who spend a lot of time in Jackson know all the reasons that it's inconvenient to come here.

If you hold the Gathering in Salt Lake and a bunch of you ski Snowbasin on that Saturday, I will enthusiastically attend. If some (or a bunch) of you want to venture up to Jackson, I'd be happy to show you around the moutain. (Believe it or not, it's not all cliffs.)


It's not worth all the bickering.

post #128 of 199
Nice anology JD!!!

There just doesn't seem to be a group in the background whining, and not nearly enough digusted people back there either. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #129 of 199
Volunteerism and Fundraising---the terms are synonymous in my book. I have never volunteered for anything that did not have a fundraising aspect to it and I have never fundraised for anything that I got paid for. I’ve done a lot of both in my day.

Just tonight I went to a wake for a 21 y/o. One of the props (If that is the correct term) was a program I designed and made almost single handedly back when he and my son played HS football together. I took the picture the program was opened to.

Although the fundraising aspect is lacking in this equation, that is NOT the aspect of the equation that I have issues with!

I will applaud the organizing committee to the ends of the earth for undertaking a thankless task.

SLC or JH! What a choice! Lets see what the members want shall we? Or is that outside the planning committees agenda?

When you volunteer for anything, you need to filter the information you get based on some set of criteria.

The decision as published so far, seem to be huckfest and all others be damned.

I see no compliance with stated objectives in the posts to this thread. Objective stated at the onset were, IMHO,

Tell us where you would like the gathering to be! And why.

What happened in the interim?

[ June 25, 2003, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: skier_j ]
post #130 of 199
Sorry, but in re-reading this, I just do NOT see any embracing of the "huckfest" or the "testosterone" stuff. What I get is when someone suggests Jackson, someone else determines it must be about showing off.
post #131 of 199
Originally posted by skier_j:
Tell us where you would like the gathering to be! And why.
Sweet Jeebus, thats it! We will put this thing wherever you guys want it, just tell us where.

Pros for SLC:
1. Diverse terrain spread over multiple mountain resorts.
2. Almost guranteed snow quality, if not quantity.
3. Easy to get to.
4. Academy will be there the prior week.
5. Very little planning required in comparison to Jackson (for committee).
6. Alta. (heheh)
7. The Extended Stay Midvale for lodging, cheap, easy...

Pros for Jackson Hole.
1. Diverse terrain spread over one large ski resort.
2. As cheap as SLC.
3. One resort will make logistics of a large group easier.
4. Better night life. (trust me)
5. Everybody must make the pilgramage once.
6. Its friggin' Jackson Hole!
7. The Hostel and other lodging is just as cheap as SLC.
8. The Gathering has not been to JH yet.

I'm not putting in any cons.

On to transportation from SLC to Jackson. Going with locals knowledge here, I have been checking into renting vans, busses, etc. Cheapest deal I can come up with is renting vans from a common rental agency. Cost would be fairly cheap, and we would have transportation up there as well. This would be nice if staying in Jackson skiing either GT or JH, going to dinner, etc. Approximate price would be around $70-80 per person in the van for the entire trip. These vans should be driven by people with experience driving in the mountains! SLC locals could opt to drive up as well, filling their cars would be a help. More info to come once a decision has been made. I'm not working my ass off on this if the Gathering ends up in SLC. If you read through this thread, you will see when we have committed to one. Driving up to Jackson Thursday night is not a big deal, I'll volunteer to drive a van up. We get up there not all that late, with Academy cooporation. If the ESA would consider having their dinner by a decent hour, be ready to drive after and work with us on this, I will promise safe and sober drivers. You can sleep on the way if you like, I'll have aroma therapy candels lit.

Any questions, please feel free to PM me or post in this thread.

NOTE: I don't personally care where this thing ends up at. I ski 50+ days in Little Cottonwood, and drive up to Jackson a few times a year. The Committee as well as myself just want the attendance to be as high as possible and for everybody to have a great time.

EDIT: Added another pro to the list.

[ June 26, 2003, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: AltaSkier ]
post #132 of 199
Originally posted by ryan:
Sorry, but in re-reading this, I just do NOT see any embracing of the "huckfest" or the "testosterone" stuff. What I get is when someone suggests Jackson, someone else determines it must be about showing off.
It is my personal opinion that Jackson Hole has more intemediate terrain than both Alta and Snowbird combined. Please see trail map in link:


Not to mention the intermediate powder of Grand Targee:


(don't let the diamonds fool you at GT, they are pretty mellow)
post #133 of 199
Thread Starter 
Jeez, whoda thunk my woodchopping would result in a cabin.

Mike, if you'd seen all the bitter, acrimonious e-mails and PMs you would fully understand my satire. Sometimes, the childishness gets to be too much for me. Sorry if I insist that adults act like adults -- that just seems a reasonable thing to ask.

The point on "dedicated skiers" is just that -- we want to have people attend who are VERY passionate about skiing and reliving the day over beers/whatever. Sidetracks regarding "oh, the drive is too long" are very childish to me. I've never had an issue with driving to something I want to do and can afford to do. The notion that someone should have to drive only 1-2 hours to reach the destination is ridiculous to me.

The Gathering isn't about selfishness, it's about GROUP fun. One person's ideal could be the group's bane. Trying to accommodate SELFISH concerns does not work in a group setting. I've settled enough horrifically disputed cases to know tht when it comes time for cooperation, EVERYONE will have to be inconvenienced somehow, and EVERYONE will have to compromise.

That's what I mean about acting like an adult.

The thread hasn't created much juvenilia, but the PMs and emails sure did. Some folks even complained to AltaSkier and PowDigger about MY involvement. That, to me, is even more childish.

So there's where I'm coming from, Mike. What you've missed behind the scenes is an amplified version of what I satirized. Sorry if you dislike satire, or if you couldn't pick it up in my post. I'm not a playground bully, never was. You're mistaken on that score... but I know that some people just don't get my sense of humor. Sorry if you're one of them.

AC, thanks for the kind words.

Bob.Peters, you are one heck of a gentleman - offering to do whatever's best for everyone shows a fine example of how everyone ought to be acting here.

AltaSkier, again you have come up with a sound, reasonable suggestion to put things in perspective. Great work!

PowDigger is staying pretty well quiet on this, but trust me, he's working his arse off.

So what will it be, folks? SLC? JH? give us your votes.
post #134 of 199
I vote for SLC
(and maybe we can sit down at decide next year's one for JH when we're there)

post #135 of 199
Gonzo, please explain how a long drive is not a legitimate concern, especially when there is skiing of comparable quality (at least for 97% of skiers) within 1/2 hour of the airport.
I know that you hate the lowest common denominator solution, but if you want big attendance, that's what you have to consider. If you would rather only have the "dedicated", well, I'm sure you would be more than welcome at the Powder gatherings....

Alta skier, more important than amount of intermediate terrain is the quality of it. Sometimes trail maps can be misleading, but it seems like over half of the intermediate trails at JH are catwalks cut into steep slopes. Snowbird is the same way, and those are just not fun. Contrast with the trail map of Mammoth , and you will see that most of the intermediate trails generally follow the fall line. I can assure you that this is much more satisfying for an intermediate.
Alta is better in this regard, how is Snowbasin?
post #136 of 199
well, having skied snowbird, i too am curious as to the nature of JH's intermediate terrain. IS it as miles suggests?

just wondering.

edit: 'cause catwalks as trails or "lines" basically suck.

[ June 26, 2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #137 of 199
Thread Starter 

When comparing JH to SLC, you are correct about the relevance of driving times. But the driving time isn't the only factor. Sometimes a longer drive gives better terrain, more fun, etc.

As to the dearth of blue/black terrain at JH, I can say from experience skiing there that JH DOES NOT lack fall-line blue/black runs. I think it's friendlier to blue/black skiers than Alta. Never skied the Bird, so I don't know about that.

Personally, I'd prefer SLC for convenience. But I love JH and would happily make the less-convenient trip there if most folks want that. I don't think my convenience is the critical factor.

Jackson has the potential to become a setting for metaphorical rams headbutting for "bada$$ Bear" rights. I won't be part of that game, I ski for me and not for anyone else. I don't care if a hotshot calls me a wuss, nor do I care if a PSIA Lv III says I have some deviations from the "perfect turn." I just want to have fun and ski with the folks in this Forum.

I prefer to spend a few hours skiing the blue/blacks each day, before jumping into tougher terrain. I don't ski as regularly as many folks, so I usually don't like to jump right into a tough run at the day's start. I promise that a good selection of fall-line blue/black runs is important to me. I like to work on technique on those runs. The tough runs trigger "survival skiing" and that's not how I prefer to spend the bulk of my ski day.

But I'm not the only person going to the Gathering, so I must be willing to yield.

Zorro, thanks for stepping up with a vote.

Miles, what do you prefer? SLC? That's perfectly fine with me.
post #138 of 199
SLC wins for convenience, but I think JH would make for a more memorable event:
• It would force us to be in one place, thus eliminating scattering.
• The mountain speaks for itself, and is much more fun for intermediates than Snowbird or Alta
• Nearby Grand Targhee is a great, mostly intermediate mountain
• Bob Peters can tell us whatever we need to know about the terrain
• Interesting, unique town.
• How many places offer on-mountain accommodations for only $50 a night (less, if you have more than one per-room)? Wouldn’t it be fantastic if we could just buy out the Hostel for the entire period?.
post #139 of 199
Convenience?? For Fernie I took three planes and drove three hours just in front of a snow storm that closed the pass behind us. BUT!! I had the time of my life!!!

post #140 of 199
My vote for timing purposes only is:
1) SLC area
2) JH

Not going to break my heart with either pick. As I stated earlier, I'd love to ski JH. I going to give it a go either way.

Originally posted by PowDigger:
Convenience?? For Fernie I took three planes and drove three hours just in front of a snow storm that closed the pass behind us. BUT!! I had the time of my life!!!

Ed, this kind of effort would definitely qualify you as a "Dedicated Skier".
post #141 of 199
I've already stated my opinion that SLC is probably the better choice for the '04 Gathering simply for the reason that more people will attend.

I've been skiing Jackson Hole for nearly 30 years, and I *know* from long experience that the reputation of the mountain and the challenges of getting here automatically rule out a fairly high percentage of skiers. Those are the main reasons that JH averages about 260,000 skier days in a *season* when Vail does that many over the Christmas holidays. What this all means is that if the *primary* goal of a Gathering is to get as many Bears as possible together to enjoy skiing and each other, you'll do better at SLC.

Having said that, AND IN NO WAY TRYING TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE TO COME TO JACKSON HOLE FOR THIS THING, I just want to comment on this whole "terrain" issue.

I think I have a few credentials in stating my opinions. I've skied practically every ski resort in Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, and New Mexico at some point. Anyone who's skied with me knows that I love to ski practically anything, from stuff that some might accuse me of being testosterone-addled to even attempt, all the way to groomed green runs. I *love* skiing groomers and can very happily spend an entire day on beginner runs that bore the beejezus out of some of my regular skiing companions. Bottom line - I think I know a little bit about choosing resorts based on the mix of terrain.


Snowbird (sorry if I make some of the '04 Academy folks uncomfortable) sucks as an beginner/intermediate ski area. The relatively few runs that are groomed are not groomed particularly well compared to other resorts and are, on average, steeper than a lot of other resorts. Snowbird is a *great* mountain for experts, perhaps even better than JH.

Alta has an excellent mix of terrain, although I believe there's a lot of steep/flat/steep/flat to that mountain. At least it has a better set of well-groomed intermediate runs than Snowbird. Alta is also an excellent mountain for experts, due in no small measure to the quantity/quality of the snow.

Park City is an outstanding mountain for intermediates and for those just a little one side or the other of intermediate (whatever that is). They groom exceedingly well because that's what their bread-and-butter customer wants. The mountain does have some very good expert terrain, so *anyone* can spend a few days at PC and be well entertained.

Same applies to Deer Valley, only magnified slightly. There is some very good "expert" skiing at DV and their trademark grooming is outstanding on everything they groom. Very top-end skiers might wish for more cliffs or cornices, but I've had great fun every time I've skied DV.

Snowbasin offers an incredible mix of endless, immaculately-groomed intermediate runs as well as plenty of places that will induce serious adrenaline in any level of skier. If you look for it and hike just a little, Snowbasin rivals any of the expert terrain that Snowbird, Alta, or JH offer. If it got as much snow at the other three, I'd have a hard time deciding which I like best. It still gets as much snow as DV and PC, which is, of course (I can't resist) more than most of the major Colorado resorts ever get. I love Snowbasin and think it would be an excellent place for the Gathering.

Grand Targhee has to be one of the best places in North America (perhaps the world) for learning to ski powder. They get tons of snow, aren't very busy, groom things well, and there are almost no places within their boundaries where an intermediate could get into "serious" trouble. It lacks very much really difficult terrain, but it is just a delightful place to ski.

Jackson Hole has more and better-groomed intermediate terrain than Snowbird *or* Alta, and perhaps, as AltaSkier said, than the two combined. Rendezvous Trail, Laramie Bowl, Grand, Gannett, Amphitheater, Gros Ventre, Slalom, Ranger, Sundance, Campground, Easy Does It, Blacktail, Sleeping Indian, Wide Open, Moran, Werner, St. John's, and several oters all get groomed practially every night. Several of those runs are two and three *times* as long (uninterrupted by catwalks) as some of the groomed runs at Snowbird or Alta. The runs are wide, visibility down the hill is excellent, and you can ski as slow or fast as you like.

The mountain at Jackson Hole is enormous. 33% more vertical than Snowbird and Snowbasin, nearly twice as much as Alta. When you look at a two-dimensional trail map, there's no way to appreciate how freakin' BIG this mountain is. So if you've never been here and make judgements based on comparing trail maps, you're missing out on an experience that can (operative word, here) be among the finest in skiing.

Again, I don't mind at all if the Gathering doesn't come here. I think you'd have a great time but it *would* be more of a pain to get to and it would cost more than just staying in SLC. But *please* don't keep perpetuating the myth that there's not much skiing at JH for intermediates. Anyone who would use *that* as a reason for choosing Alta or Snowbird over Jackson Hole just doesn't have all the facts.

Okay, rant over. You can all return to your regularly-scheduled program.

post #142 of 199
From skiing "with the boy bears" the day before the Academy, I can say that Snowbasin has intermediate terrain that runs close enough to expert terrain, so people can part at the trails and then meet up again.

I can also say, that although Bob Peters is not an instructor, he can get anyone down anything, and it will take him about one minute to figure out what you are doing to hold yourself back.
But lets not put too much pressure on him.

Also, anyone gets on an airplane for 5 hours to go skiing should not be considered undedicated. As far as JH vs. SLC, if I can be so presumptous as tos speak for academy participants:

Last year, after day 4, I woke up with almost a childish anticipation. I wanted to try out my new skills IMMEDIATELY. Heck, the 30 minutes to Alta almost seemed too long! 5hours in a car would have been anticlimatic.

I also loved getting in 8 days skiing back to back. Given the cost of skiing in New England, where you get far less value than in the west, it becomes more and more important to maximize my time ON SKIS, as opposed to time in the car.

But, like Bonni, I am not at the same level as the more advanced skiers here, so my preferences should not be a factor, given that you probably would not be skiing with me. There seems to be a strong pull towards JH, which I feel is where the gathering should be. Whether I attend or not is irrelevant.
My fearis that it is held at SLC, some would regard it as comprimise, and that would feed into the animosity some people have towards the academy.

Another point: This is supposed to be a GROUP discussion and decision. Sending whiny PMs to the organizers actually justifies their anger, no matter how outrageous it may seem. If you have concerns, discuss them here.
post #143 of 199
Bob great work.

Here is an important question. Since Saturday and Sunday are two big ski days for us which place will have shorter lift lines SLC area resorts or JH?

post #144 of 199
JH has the best terrain in this country bar none. Where Utah's terrain is steep-flat-steep, JH's is a continuous pitch from the summit to Teton Village. My wife; an intermediate skier at best, LOVES JH because it is the most scenic resort she has every been to, it is uncrowded (other than the tram), and she can always see the base to get where she is going. SLC's resorts are far more convenient if that is the objective. JH is a must do trip, it's not all about gnarly terrain. It offers IMHO THE most beautiful area in the continental US and excellent offerings for the non-skiers in the group. It offers top notch OB access with an infrastructure within the ski school to accomodate BC neverbeens. If you like SLC for its skiing attributes you will LOVE JH (OK, LCC/BCC have better snow.). If you want convenience of access then I agree you can not beat the SLC area.
post #145 of 199
Originally posted by PowDigger:
Bob great work.

Here is an important question. Since Saturday and Sunday are two big ski days for us which place will have shorter lift lines SLC area resorts or JH?

[Snickering] You're kidding right? [/Snickering]

JH is a destination resort with no local population and somewhat difficult access, that has a lift capacity equal or gerater than Snowbird.

Have you ever rolled into the Snowbird parking lot at 10AM on a Saturday? You won't find a parking place.

Sarcasm aside, other than the tram on a powder day you will be hard pressed to ever find a lift line at JH.
post #146 of 199
If we're doing a final vote: This year, one location: Snowbasin, to maximize participation by Academy participants who will be in SLC this year and for overall travel convenience and variety of terrain. Next year, definitely, Jackson/Targhee!

And thanks again to ALL the organizers! Your efforts are much appreciated. Looking forward to skiing with you!

[ June 26, 2003, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: mike_m ]
post #147 of 199
Well said, mike_m!

SLC (Snowbasin) this year, Jackson Hole next year is my vote.
I'll ski with you, LM! :
post #148 of 199
Just had to chime in again.

Snowbasin, with an excursion to Powder Mountain if the weather cooperates.

'05 site selection completed by 2/15/04!!!!!

post #149 of 199
Originally posted by PowDigger:

Here is an important question. Since Saturday and Sunday are two big ski days for us which place will have shorter lift lines SLC area resorts or JH?

Teledave is correct about JH (except perhaps about there not being enough locals to make liftlines). Most of the time, particularly in late January, there won't be any lines to speak of with the exception of the tram on a powder day.


I don't think there are enough people in Utah to make significant liftlines at Snowbasin. They have two dynamite gondolas and a long high-speed quad in addition to a few older chairs (plus that CUTE little beer-can tram). You just don't wait in line at Snowbasin, even on a weekend powder day.

post #150 of 199
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