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Advice on learning a 360

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this question, so I apologize in advance, if I've posted in the wrong section of the forum.I would like to learn a 360 this season. I tried it a few times last year and came close a couple of times but never landed it. My problem as I understand it is stopping the rotation half-way, at 180. I can land 180 but not 360. A couple of people suggested spotting my landing on the way around, but I think this is actually contributing to my difficulty. I think it actually stops my rotation because I look down and try to find the snow. I was also told that leaving my legs dangling straight below me, "old-school"  is preferred to tucking them on the rotation. This doesn't seem to feel right. It feels as though when I'm not compressed, my rotation slows. Also, I need to work on my timing. I was told that I need to start my spin the instant my boots leave the jump. When I watch other skiers spin it looks as though they actually begin the rotation on the snow. Not sure if my impressions are correct or if I'm missing something.


Edited by MHarry18 - 10/14/14 at 5:49am
post #2 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post
 

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this question, so I apologize in advance, if I've posted in the wrong section of the forum.I would like to learn a 360 this season. I tried it a few times last year and came close a couple of times but never landed it. My problem as I understand it is stopping the rotation half-way, at 180. I can land 180 but not 360. A couple of people suggested spotting my landing on the way around, but I think this is actually contributing to my difficulty. I think it actually stops my rotation because I look down and try to find the snow. I was also told that leaving my legs dangling straight below me, "old-school"  is preferred to tucking them on the rotation. This doesn't seem to feel right. It feels as though when I'm not compressed, my rotation slows. Also, I need to work on my timing. I was told that I need to start my spin the instant my boots leave the jump. When I watch other skiers spin it looks as though they actually begin the rotation on the snow. Not sure if my impressions are correct or if I'm missing something.

Off course you have to start the rotation before leaving the snow, otherwise you have nothing to push against to start the rotation.

Can you do a 360 standing from standstill on the ground? If you can do that it is not so hard on snow.

Regarding the compressed thing, if you start the rotation compressed/squatted you get more power into you rotation, but when you leave the jump you get higher rotation speed if you stay tall and arms close to center. Mass close to or far from the axis of rotation makes a huge difference. Extending your arms is effective if you are about to over-rotate.

I think your problem may be that you are not really rotating, a 180 can be done by simply twisting the body and skis in opposite directions, but the body mass is not really rotating. In particular if you do this after leaving the snow.

post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 

I can spin 360 from the ground in either direction. It is a little easier for me to spin from right to left. That's the way I was attempting the movement on snow. What you say about starting the spin on snow makes complete sense to me. How do you avoid hooking an edge on take-off? Also, if my problem is not spinning and simply turning my body, how can I recognize and correct this? Can tucking help if one is under rotating ?

post #4 of 28

I had a friend who could do them with ease, while I struggled. One day we built a jump in the backyard to practice.  Within that day, I got em down, though they looked pretty sloppy. We called it a heli back in the day. Lol.

 

His description was very simple but worked for me. Bend your knees, pop, twist, and keep your head looking over your shoulder. When approaching the lip, bend those knees so you can get the pop off the lip. As mentioned before, start your turn on the snow (the twist). Hands in while in the air.

 

I would often land after a 180 because I felt my momentum wouldn't carry me through to the 360.  That's when he told me to look over my shoulder.  If you turn right, as your twisting, look over your right shoulder and do not stop trying to look over that shoulder until the landing.  Lead with the head and the body will follow.

 

I hope that makes sense.

post #5 of 28

You can practice them on dry land, don't even need a tramp.  Just try them running off small sets of steps and terrain drops.  Visualize them as if you did have skis on.  Even pretend to plant your pole on the takeoff if that is most comfortable to you.  Work up to longer and longer float times, a little higher and a little higher.  That will give you experience performing the "lead with the head" technique.  If you can"float" them without skis on, you will be able to "float" them with skis on easier than you think when you try them on skis again.

post #6 of 28

All of the above is good info. A couple things that helped me when I was learning to spin:

 

-your takeoff is the most important. All of the torque for a spin needs to be imparted before your skis leave the snow. If you have a good takeoff, with all the spin put into your body, the rest is staying on the ride until it comes around. Inertia is your friend. Once you're in the air and spinning, any other motion will only serve to slow down or stop your spin.

 

-To get the torque, the two things that always helped me were my windup and my head. As you go to takeoff, crouch to get ready for your pop, and at the same time, cock back your (right) arm like you're going to punch somebody. As you pop, swing your (right) arm and punch yourself in the (left) armpit. At the same time, try to lick your (left) shoulder or your (left) ear. Keep that (right) fist in your (left) armpit, and keep trying to lick your shoulder until the spin comes all the way around. Then straighten out your head, bring your hands in front of you, and land. Words in parentheses can be switched if you want to spin the other way.

post #7 of 28

I was always told to practice them with your ski boots on off of a step.    Get used to spinning on flat land in ski boots first.    Get that smooth and confident and then take it to the snow and do the same thing off a small table top style jump.  

post #8 of 28
Thread Starter 

m

post #9 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by focker View Post
 

I was always told to practice them with your ski boots on off of a step.    Get used to spinning on flat land in ski boots first.    Get that smooth and confident and then take it to the snow and do the same thing off a small table top style jump.  


It would seem with all the advice related to practice in ski boots that jump height and hang time are less important than takeoff and rotation. Did you learn them in the park or make jumps?

post #10 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by focker View Post
 

I was always told to practice them with your ski boots on off of a step.    Get used to spinning on flat land in ski boots first.    Get that smooth and confident and then take it to the snow and do the same thing off a small table top style jump.  


That makes sense to me and I take it that spotting the landing is something you do after the spin is complete not before. Is there any edging involved in the pre-takeoff torqueing, or is it just a body windup? I think that is what you are telling me; the wind-up doesn't involve the skis or the snow.

post #11 of 28

LL

Here is a sequence. I am an old guy so I now only tend to do them in ideal spots like this or a spine. As coming up to the lip, skier 2-3 you can see me getting ready to plant my pole at the lip. I plant pole then start my spin with my head and upper body. You can see #5 has my head leading the body looking for my landing area. #6, the body is catching up with the body then everything else is coming around.

 

Here is a video from last season at A-basin in the Land of the Giants:


Edited by Philpug - 10/14/14 at 9:21am
post #12 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

LL

Here is a sequence. I am an old guy so I now only tend to do them in ideal spots like this or a spine. As coming up to the lip, skier 2-3 you can see me getting ready to plant my pole at the lip. I plant pole then start my spin with my head and upper body. You can see #5 has my head leading the body looking for my landing area. #6, the body is catching up with the body then everything else is coming around.

 

Here is a video from last season at A-basin in the Land of the Giants:

As a fellow old guy, I love it. Backward even. Not sure why the pole plant. I've heard that mentioned twice now. Maybe I'm missing something.

post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

LL

Here is a sequence. I am an old guy so I now only tend to do them in ideal spots like this or a spine. As coming up to the lip, skier 2-3 you can see me getting ready to plant my pole at the lip. I plant pole then start my spin with my head and upper body. You can see #5 has my head leading the body looking for my landing area. #6, the body is catching up with the body then everything else is coming around.

 

Here is a video from last season at A-basin in the Land of the Giants:

As a fellow old guy, I love it. Backward even. Not sure why the pole plant. I've heard that mentioned twice now. Maybe I'm missing something

I have always done the pole plant since I learned in the late 70's so it is pure muscle memory. I use it to launch off of and start the rotation. If you watch in slo-mo, you will see how I extend from the plant and straighten the body, from there it allow the rotation to start around, pitfall is that hand tends to come around late sometimes, begin over 50, I will take it. 

post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post
 

As a fellow old guy, I love it. Backward even. Not sure why the pole plant. I've heard that mentioned twice now. Maybe I'm missing something.

The pole plant isn't really necessary. A lot of modern park skiers don't even ski with real poles.

 

The modern way of doing it is to takes a wide stance and sort of push off with the outside foot. There is a little bit of a carve into it which you definitely need for higher rotation spins but for a 360 you can get away without out it.

 

Now I just need to figure out how to stop rotating backwards as I spin. Had my 3s dialed for two seasons than last year I couldn't land one for the life of me...

post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

LL

Here is a sequence. I am an old guy so I now only tend to do them in ideal spots like this or a spine. As coming up to the lip, skier 2-3 you can see me getting ready to plant my pole at the lip. I plant pole then start my spin with my head and upper body. You can see #5 has my head leading the body looking for my landing area. #6, the body is catching up with the body then everything else is coming around.

 

Here is a video from last season at A-basin in the Land of the Giants:

 

 

Great visual aide.   

 

Look at the 4th pic how he's already got his upper body 90 deg into the turn and his ski's are still on the snow.   His body is a 1/4 way through the rotation and he's still pushing off the surface.

post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post
 


It would seem with all the advice related to practice in ski boots that jump height and hang time are less important than takeoff and rotation. Did you learn them in the park or make jumps?

 

I think so.   It's just a matter of getting used to spinning and landing in ski boots.   This technique will get you used to leading with your head and spotting your landing.   Try to land these right at a perfect circle as much as possible, so if you had ski's on you'll in the directions of travel.

 

I also like trying 360's on a jump where you have very little forward momentum.  That way if you don't make it all the way around on your rotation (or even if you over-rotate) you won't slam too hard when you possibly land on an edge.   Slower = safer when learning these.

post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post
 

As a fellow old guy, I love it. Backward even. Not sure why the pole plant. I've heard that mentioned twice now. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

I'm not sure where you're planning on practicing, but if you are looking to do this in the park, I'd suggest you avoid a pole plant. Planting on the lip of a feature tends to hack it up and make it more difficult to use for those coming after you. Its subtly frowned upon.

post #18 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by focker View Post
 

 

 

Great visual aide.   

 

Look at the 4th pic how he's already got his upper body 90 deg into the turn and his ski's are still on the snow.   His body is a 1/4 way through the rotation and he's still pushing off the surface.

So is that turning before you leave the snow the way it appears or is it only his upper body coming around? I just want to make sure I am seeing the same thing you are commenting on.

post #19 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post

 

The modern way of doing it is to takes a wide stance and sort of push off with the outside foot.

Pushing on the inside edge of the outside ski and then jumping as you would on any other takeoff?

post #20 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post
 

Pushing on the inside edge of the outside ski and then jumping as you would on any other takeoff?

Yes. Pushing on that edge and opening that ankle as you turn your shoulders and your head to initiate rotation.

post #21 of 28

^^^ like he said

Quote:

Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post
 

Pushing on the inside edge of the outside ski and then jumping as you would on any other takeoff?

 

It's also a little bit of a carve you pressure the inside edge of the outside ski just before the lip which starts you turning than push off as you come to the lip

 

I'm also not sure what you mean by any other take off. If straight airing for a grab or doing a flip your skis should be flat as you go off. The amount you pop (jump) largely depends on the amount of pop the lip of the jump. Some require you pop a lot others you almost have to absorb some of it because they throw you too much. A properly built jump will have you popping very little of the lip for a straight air.

post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post

 
As a fellow old guy, I love it. Backward even. Not sure why the pole plant. I've heard that mentioned twice now. Maybe I'm missing something.
The pole plant isn't really necessary. A lot of modern park skiers don't even ski with real poles.

The modern way of doing it is to takes a wide stance and sort of push off with the outside foot. There is a little bit of a carve into it which you definitely need for higher rotation spins but for a 360 you can get away without out it.

Now I just need to figure out how to stop rotating backwards as I spin. Had my 3s dialed for two seasons than last year I couldn't land one for the life of me...
The pole plant helps me control the body angle so I don't rotate backwards. It allows me to keep my body forward to match the landing verses matching the approach angle. I use more of an accelerating plant verses a blocking plant that could push me back.
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post
 

So is that turning before you leave the snow the way it appears or is it only his upper body coming around? I just want to make sure I am seeing the same thing you are commenting on.

 

Your whole body should be twisting through the rotation.   Your head turned to the side, your torso twisted so that your shoulders further through the rotation than your hips.  Your head finishes the rotation first, then your shoulders, then hips and feet.

 

So as you come off the lip you head should be well to the side already and your shoulders well into the rotation as well.  Your hips should be just slightly into the rotation.

post #24 of 28

Also I really like learning tricks somewhere with a Flat landing.  It's harder on your knees, but if you crash you don't fall as hard or as far.  When you fall on a downhill area you often fall 'down' the hill meaning you fall further than you would on a flat section.  This allow your falling body to gain speed and you'll hit the ground harder and faster.  Ouch.

post #25 of 28
Plus you are hiking back up further for your skis. Lol. I do also prefer kickers to floaters for new tricks too.

360s. Can be learned on various type jumps because it is a flat spin and does not require much height
post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by focker View Post
 

Also I really like learning tricks somewhere with a Flat landing.  It's harder on your knees, but if you crash you don't fall as hard or as far.  When you fall on a downhill area you often fall 'down' the hill meaning you fall further than you would on a flat section.  This allow your falling body to gain speed and you'll hit the ground harder and faster.  Ouch.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Plus you are hiking back up further for your skis. Lol. I do also prefer kickers to floaters for new tricks too.

360s. Can be learned on various type jumps because it is a flat spin and does not require much height

 

I don't know personally I don't like flat landings. If you learn how and when to bail properly off a jump with a slopped landing you just go sliding.

 

There is skill to falling and bailing I think it's one of the most under emphasized skills in the park particularly learning how to crash when you know your coming up short. Learning to absorb when you case can save your knees and feet    

post #27 of 28
There are a lot of right ways to do something.

Leading with the head is toxic to me for a helicopter. My hips drive the trick. Keeping everything tight, especially the core, makes the trick smooth and controlled. I imagine eyes in my hips and look into the turn with them.

Pole plants help me keep my shoulders in line with my hips and keeps me from breaking at the waist.

If my axis is good, I can land a bit short and finish the trick on the snow. Flatter landings make it easier to set an edge without catching.

People with more skills than me can do tricks with different form.

Eric
post #28 of 28
You can also do one off a bump across the fall line... Rotate toward the hill. It's less intimidating than doing on down the fall line for the first attempts.
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