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XC Binding Inserts or Risers

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 

I'm considering options for 3-Pin 75mm bindings for light XC/BC use - basically tromping around in the forest with occasional mild rolling hills. Thinking about something like the Voile Hardwire or HD Mountaineer. I'm interested in the idea of mounting inserts so I could use a single pair of bindings amongst different skis. I contacted ORS but they don't carry anything like that. Have a message in to Quiver Killer, waiting to hear back. Looks like they may have what I'm looking for.

 

Another option might be to install risers on each pair of skis and then mount the binding to those. I guess as with a carving plate on an alpine ski a riser might help with tipping into turns, and a riser would get the 3-Pin "wings" a little higher off the snow. Not sure what the downside (if any) would be using risers for general XC touring.

 

If anyone has been down this road I'd be interested in what product(s) you used and any usage/installation issues.

 

TIA.


Edited by jc-ski - 10/13/14 at 11:06am
post #2 of 14

You're handy enough with DIY to be able to build a 6-10mm thick pair yourself, with just wood, metal flashing, nuts and adhesive.     Set the nuts into the wood with epoxy, face either side with sheet metal to stop pullouts, spray with urethane.  

The biggest weight gain will be from the nuts and extra set of  machine screws, but you will get that weight gain even with moulded plastic lifters, from the double set of sheet metal screws.

post #3 of 14
Thread Starter 

Interesting idea - thx for sharing that.

post #4 of 14

The Hardwire sounds like overkill for mild rolling hills and tromping around.  I used to have the 3-pin cable binding and kept the cables in my pack 99% of the time.  A voile mountaineer binding is ~$60 new so is it really worth messing around with risers and inserts?  If you were looking to rip high angle turns on hardpack I could see the value in a riser (like a 90's tele racer), but I don't think it really helps you for messing about in the woods in natural snow conditions.  Even if you are making some turns on mild rolling hills, you don't really need a riser: the wings of the binding will drag through the powder just fine. A riser won't bring them high enough to stay out of the powder or soft snow anyways.

post #5 of 14

Also...what boots are you using?  Big plastic boots and hardwire cables make sense for charging around and steeper skiing.  If you have soft low leather boots, well, the cables can help a bit, but really, it just feels like a cable on soft twisty little boots!  And if you're putting around on a light plastic boot like the Excursion, it has plenty of built in beef to turn skis with just the 3 pins on moderate slopes.

post #6 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanmoreBruce View Post
 

Also...what boots are you using?  Big plastic boots and hardwire cables make sense for charging around and steeper skiing.  If you have soft low leather boots, well, the cables can help a bit, but really, it just feels like a cable on soft twisty little boots!  And if you're putting around on a light plastic boot like the Excursion, it has plenty of built in beef to turn skis with just the 3 pins on moderate slopes.

 

He's in Alpina Telelites, which is sort of in between - think Karhu Nomad lower boot mated to a Merrell Supercomp cuff.      Nice steering control, but not much edging force.    A little bit of a lift can improve edging feel.  Especially if the boot fits loose enough for the forefoot to rotate slightly within the boot when large edging forces are applied. 

You're right about the low $cost of 3pins, tho. 

post #7 of 14

Understood.  Just not sure that risers would actually improve edging, especially with the twisting of leather lowers - within the context of general XC kicking about in the woods.  Higher riser can equal more instability in deeper snow.  All my 3 pin bindings were always mounted flat to the ski with no particular issues.  Now if somebody wants to crank big turns on plastic boots...I understand risers for that. 

post #8 of 14
Thread Starter 

To be clear, I was interested in risers for the potential to move a single set of bindings amongst different skis - permanently mount risers to skis, screw bindings into risers, with easy option to remove. Using a riser would inherently lessen lateral stability, which could sum up as a negative for general XC skiing, even if tipping into turns might be easier.

 

My TeleLite boots have a thick duckbill - about 19mm. I found a cheap pair of Rossi BC 90 skis in a thrift shop with basic 3-pin bindings that I thought might work, but the duckbills are too thick. The Voile Hardwire seems like an interesting option as the cable can easily be locked to the heelpiece, thus taken completely out of play for flat kick-and-glide travel, yet there to hook up to the boot if desired for downhill. But it's about $160 new.

 

The HD Mountaineer seems to be the minimal 3-pin that would work with the thicker duckbill - at least that I've been able to find. $60 is better than $160, but it would still be nice to have the option to use a single set of Mountaineers on different skis, perhaps using CTM's homemade riser design suggested above.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

post #9 of 14

I don't buy that as a general or all-inclusive negative.

 

You're an inline skater.     You just spent the summer balancing just fine.   On an 'XC' platform that is 20mm wide.   With at least 85mm of lift and probably closer to 100mm.       Did you skate over any bricks, paver stones or pea gravel-topped concrete?  Road ruts?  Tree root under-trail bulges?    I know I did.     It's a commonplace.    

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 Using a riser would inherently lessen lateral stability, which could sum up as a negative for general XC skiing,

 

I submit to you that you will be able to adapt to most any reasonable amount of lift, it's merely a question of getting more on-snow mileage in.

 

Heck, you could probably bolt a 20mm wide block of wood onto one of those old XC skis, then use your wheel-less skate frame as a jig to drill a 5mm or 8mm hole through that block.     Use the front axle as the pivot bar of your "XC" binding.     With maybe a rubber bumper in back.

 

And no, I'm not being weird or freakish or insane.   Or even remotely original.   Here is the exact same thing, except built to order as a commercially available system, in rigid Alu framing, by the Cado Motus people:

 


So if you wish to pay 535 euros:

 


http://www.cadomotus.com/more/cross-country-ski-ing.html


Edited by cantunamunch - 10/18/14 at 11:02am
post #10 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

You're an inline skater.     You just spent the summer balancing just fine.   On an 'XC' platform that is 20mm wide.   With at least 85mm of lift and probably closer to 100mm.       Did you skate over any bricks, paver stones or pea gravel-topped concrete?  Road ruts?  Tree root under-trail bulges?    I know I did.     It's a commonplace.    

 

Ha, I was thinking about that - skate kinda being the ultimate riser, just as you described. I'm not quite as far along as this guy, but I do a lot of road skating and over time have gotten more comfortable skating "crud" (less than perfectly smooth) pavement, hopping on and off sidewalks, and generally rolling over the type of stuff you listed (and speed bumps). Mileage for sure is the key.

 

Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

Heck, you could probably bolt a 20mm wide block of wood onto one of those old XC skis, then use your wheel-less skate frame as a jig to drill a 5mm or 8mm hole through that block.     Use the front axle as the pivot bar of your "XC" binding.     With maybe a rubber bumper in back.

 

And no, I'm not being weird or freakish or insane.   Or even remotely original.   Here is the exact same thing, except built to order as a commercially available system, in rigid Alu framing, by the Cado Motus people:

 

Won't be buying that myself, but have to admire the ingenuity of the design, and it appears to be pretty effective in action. Certainly no issue getting those edges over to dig in for a good push!

 

I have come to love my Rollerblade RB 90 skates, and even though the plastic shell is vented the frame bolts on so I've pondered using them for ice skating by swapping in a blade frame. Why not XC skiing?

 

Setting aside for the moment whether that skate/boot is a good choice and focusing on your idea above, as stated the boot/frame would be "hard wired" into the block and the ski. The trick would be to come up with a two piece design for some kind of step-in capability like the Cado Motus thing. But yea, the "front axle as the pivot bar" - it's right there! Brilliant!

 

Fun to think about.   ;-)

post #11 of 14
Thread Starter 

After chewing on this for a while I'm thinking inserts would be a better way to go. Cleaner/simpler solution, and I'm not looking for any of the benefit a riser might provide. On the BC 90 skis I have the existing mount holes for the older 3-Pin bindings should match with a newer 3-Pin binding that will work with a fat (18-19mm) duckbill, and I can use those existing mount holes as guides to just drill out a bit and tap for the inserts.

 

I dropped by a local hardware store today, and this was the only threaded insert they had on the shelf...

 

 

$1.50 each. I just picked those up to eyeball things at home. I'm guessing brass is not a good choice (too soft?) for actual use, but there are plenty of sources online for stainless steel inserts, and info on the web for the install process...

 

https://www.wildsnow.com/3853/quiver-killer-binding-mount-inserts

 

I emailed Quiver Killer a week ago, but haven't heard back. They seemingly have a wide variety of inserts and fasteners, but why not just buy at a local store (if I can find one), or else online? Just need to get the right size/length pieces, otherwise should be straightforward.

 

Am I missing anything?

post #12 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

Am I missing anything?

 

Yeh, you'll want extra anti ice tape 

http://www.voile.com/voile-telemark-binding-accessories/voile-anti-ice-tape-pins.html

post #13 of 14
Thread Starter 

Can't I just use duck tape, or an old credit card?   ;-)

 

Dropped into a store today with one the TeleLite boots. They had a bunch of AT/XC gear, but all the 75mm bindings were higher end cable tele's - no new 3-Pin stuff at all. However a generous fellow who was in there on his day off kindly dug out a box of older gear from the back for me to paw through. Several used but in good condition 3-Pin's. Long story short I did a sanity-check fit on the thick TeleLite duckbill and came away with a pair of Voile's (Mountaineer-like) for $20.

 

Now just need to track down some inserts and drill, baby, drill!

post #14 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

Can't I just use duck tape, or an old credit card?   ;-)

 

Dropped into a store today with one the TeleLite boots. They had a bunch of AT/XC gear, but all the 75mm bindings were higher end cable tele's - no new 3-Pin stuff at all. However a generous fellow who was in there on his day off kindly dug out a box of older gear from the back for me to paw through. Several used but in good condition 3-Pin's. Long story short I did a sanity-check fit on the thick TeleLite duckbill and came away with a pair of Voile's (Mountaineer-like) for $20.

 

Now just need to track down some inserts and drill, baby, drill!

 

They're actually designed to fit white Rottefella 3 pins - the ones with the red or black clamping levers - so if you spot any of those

 

 

Model name is Super Telemark if you need an Ebay alert or something.

 

They will also fit Rivas, obviously.


Edited by cantunamunch - 10/22/14 at 10:33am
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