or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Line Supernatural 108 vs Cochise
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Line Supernatural 108 vs Cochise

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

Every few years I just can’t decide on what ski I’d like.  This year there are so many good choices and I'm trying to form an opinion.  I've outlined below my thinking about new skis for this - comments and/or suggestions would be welcome! 

I’m 5’10 and weigh 170 pounds.  I tend to be an athletic skier (at least in my mind;)), and enjoy mixing new an old school styles.  I mostly ski in the Canadian Rockies, with preferred skiing in open bowls, bumps, tress, and chutes.  I had about 50 days on resort skis last year and 100 the year before - hope to ski closer to 100 this year (unless the BC skiing is stellar).  My favorite runs include the Whitehorn chutes at Lake Louise, Delirium and Sunshine, Taynton bowl at Pano and the many chutes at Kicking Horse.  I'm happy with almost any snow under my feet.  My other skis include several hand-me-up race skis for early season on-piste days, MX 88 (178) for lean snow times, Bonafide (187 - to be replaced), Automatic 117 (186), and Soul 7 (178)  & JJs for touring.

The ski I want to replace is the 186 Bonafide because my old pair is, well, getting old and beat-up.  I really like these ski, particularly for charging in open bowls, and I find them decent in bumps and crud.  Not the best for groomers, but that’s OK since that is where the go the least.  I'll keep the old pair for early season "rock" skis.

Although I'd be happy with a new pair of Bones, I'd like to try something new.  If I imagine a continuum of stability (damp charging) vs playfulness (lively), I'd like to move a little more toward playfulness, but not too far because I rather enjoy fast cruising in muck.  For me, playfulness would equate to a bit more pop and "turnyness" (is that a word?). 

So I've ruled out skis like the FX104.  Although a solid ski, it's too far away from the playful side of things.  I've also ruled out skis like the Automatic 102 because it feels too soft. 

Currently, the skis I'm thinking of purchasing are the Line Supernatural 108 or the Cochise.  The Blister reviews of SN108 make it sound like a ski that can be charged, yet has pop and is playful in the bumps.  Powerful in the crud, yet decent on groomer. 

The Cochise sounds much the same, although Jonathan Ellsworth from Blister commented..."The Cochise has stiffer shovels than the Supernatural 108 for straight-up bashing and charging in bad snow, but the Supernatural 108 feels far more lively when carving. If that is important to you, and if you’ve ever worried that the Cochise might be more ski than you’re looking for, or perhaps not quite playful enough for your style of skiing, then the Supernatural 108 probably should be your next ski."

In light of the Blister reviews, I'm leaning more toward the SN108. 

I've also considered the Line Supernatural 100 – This seems like it would be a poppy, energetic playful ski, but not as stable or powerful as the 108.   Snappier and quicker edge to edge than the 108, but less stable in crud and at speed.  I still want that stabilit.y

The local ski shop suggested the DPS Wailer 105 – hybrid – This ski seems like it will be a heavier and damper ski than DPSs in the past, (which I liked in the powder but not at a resort) – the new Wailer seems to have a bit more weight – other than this, I know little about this ski.

Again, any insight would be welcome,  BTW, it's rather hard to find a demo skis where I live,

 

 

 


Edited by canadianskier - 10/1/14 at 4:30pm
post #2 of 17

I'm vaguely your size (6', 165), owned the 2013 185 Cochise. Have not skied the Supernatural, but find it interesting as a quiver addition. What I can say is 1) The Cochise was not my cuppa tea. It's a well-regarded ski that just didn't click for me, felt harsh, skittish, lot of symptoms that suggest it was too stiff for my size and style. Or maybe I don't get along with uncambered skis. Or maybe it was just haunted; :eek I've skied beefier Stocklis without issue. 

 

And 2) Completely befuddled why you are thinking of a high 100's as your only ski for the Canadian Rockies. Which I have found to get fairly hard packed and bumpy between storms, and said storms don't always dump 6+". Lately have been fine there with a 94-98 mm. :dunno But I tend to ski the Banff area, realize if you are a Revelstoke guy, 108 would be a carver...

 

OK, to be constructive: What about something that's more soft snow oriented but not so wide? The Supernatural 100, as you note, or the Ritual, or the new NRGY 100? Eg, sometimes a different flex pattern or construction is more significant than a different width...

 

Now about feel: You realize you're asking for the usual holy grail, playful but damp and stable. Good luck. You speculate about DPS. If you value playful, and concentrate on powder, then the DPS 112 is a great candidate. If you value damp and stable, it isn't. Have owned two different Pures, Lotus 120 and the 112's, keep hoping they'll get it right. IMO they make truly innovative soft snow skis, 112 maybe the best thing ever made for trees with plenty of powder, but way too lively/bouncy for rough or variable snow. The W99's, which are a more realistic everyday ski, may be a bit better. May be. DPS hybrids apparently are better yet in this regard, but also as heavy or heavier than comparable models from everyone else, so what's the point? 

 

Out. 


Edited by beyond - 9/29/14 at 8:07pm
post #3 of 17

After demoing the Nordica El Capo last year which is a ski that directly competes with the Supernatural 108 I can say I'm a big fan of this One-oh-something class of skis. So much so I am switching up my quiver this season by dropping the 98 and picking up the 107 El Capo along with a new ~85'ish mm frontside ski. A two-ski quiver for 98% of my days.

 

I've read a lot about the new Supernaturals and I'm eager to demo them this season, but they're weren't available for me last year so I can't say any more about them. But if they ski anything like the El Capo's then I think you're gonna love them. The Cochise is clearly a fine ski as well but you've got to really like the way they handle so buying them blind will be a bigger risk, IMO.

post #4 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianskier View Post
 

I’m 5’10 and weigh 170 pounds.  I tend to be an athletic skier . . .

The ski I want to replace is the 186 Bonafide because my old pair is, well, getting old and beat-up. 

Although I'd be happy with a new pair of Bones, I'd like to try something new.  If I imagine a continuum of stability (damp charging) vs playfulness (lively), I'd like to move a little more toward playfulness, but not too far because I rather enjoy fast cruising in muck.  For me, playfulness would equate to a bit more pop and "turnyness" (is that a word?). 

Currently, the skis I'm thinking of purchasing are the Line Supernatural 108 or the Cochise.  The Blister reviews of SN108 make it sound like a ski that can be charged, yet has pop and is playful in the bumps.  Powerful in the crud, yet decent on groomer. 

I remembered seeing this thread and noticed that you didn't get much response so I figured that I'd respond because I've been on most of the skis in question.

 

I read your question to say that you are looking to fill the center of a Western Canada quiver with something 100-110ish, strong and stable but maybe more playful than your Bonafides.

 

Bonafides.  The first thing that immediately jumps to mind is that unless it is a typo above 187 in the Bonafides is a ton of ski for someone 5"10, 170#.  I don't doubt that you are a rock star, and you obviously have enough experience to know what you are doing, so take this for what it is worth. . . but the Bonafide is not a ski that cries to be skied super long.  I am 5'11, 185 and I have never found the 180 (head height) wanting for length.  I've got a ton of days in all kinds of conditions on the180s and what I prize most about that set up is the versatility.  I'm not saying that you can't or shouldn't ski the Bones at 187 because obviously you have successfully.  But at that length, at your size, you have elected to go long and that has likely affected the character of the ride. So it isn't surprising to read that you are looking for something that is equally solid but more "playful."

 

So the first question is whether you have tried the Bonafide in 180?  That might be the answer to your question right there, especially given that you ski the MX88 178, which feels to me like an analog in size to the 180 length Bonafide.

 

Cochise.  As for the Cochise, I love that ski although it is different from the Bonafides.  Relative to a 180 Bonafide (to compare apples to apples), the 185 Cochise would feel bigger, the turn radius is longer and it has less "pop."  But it is super solid, blasts through variable conditions, holds a strong edge once you get it there and it slips nicely edge to edge (although it isn't super quick).  And I would bet that at your size the 185 Cochise would feel way more fun, way looser than a 187 Bonafide.  For your neighborhood, particularly if you are heading more into eastern BC, a Cochise would be a very good center of your quiver if you like the feel.  I tend to agree with Blister's review on this one.

 

As for the Supernatural 108, I thought it was OK, but not great.  Given the Blister review I had high hopes - I tend to agree with their impressions, and I usually map pretty closely to Jonathan's preferences.  And I used to ski the Prophet 100s back in the day, so my expectations were pretty high. 

 

To be fair, my demo was limited and I'd like to give these another try.  I probably got in about 3000 vertical feet, but it was a good day for demos because there were variable conditions all over Crystal (decent powder/chopped up powder on top, heavy, wet manky snow toward the base, and enough smooth'ish terrain to get a feel for groomer/hard pack performance).

 

However, I didn't feel the "pop" at all.  In general, I thought that the SN108 was somewhat "meh" - it was OK, I'd keep a free pair, but it felt really dated - it reminded me of my P100s, just a wider, slower version.  Turning, it definitely felt like a Prophet, very smooth and intuitive but it lacked punch.  In the powder, it felt kind of heavy and ponderous (without the power of the Cochise and without the snap and smooth release of the Bonafide).  Another Line comparison, I thought that it had way less energy and was way less "edgy" than the old Influence 105 (a ski that I always liked).  At first I was pretty confused because I was expecting a snappy rocket ship - once I figured it out, it skied the variable conditions almost exactly like my Prophets - I just let the skis sink in and come around at their pace - but nothing close to the platform of the Blizzards or some others.  

 

I'd love to try the SN100 because I bet that the shape and layup is optimized for that width profile - the 108 didn't feel like the "reference width" - more like something else blown up to fill a market segment.  But that was just me, one anecdotal data point, so take it for what it is worth.

 

Other alternatives. 

 

One ski that I think fits your request perfectly that you should consider is the Salomon QLab104.  I demoed it twice last spring and I'd own it if I had a reasonable use case (my Bonafides haven't given out yet and I also picked up a decent used Cochise for giggles - thanks Josh Matta!).  Still I might very well pick up a QLab this spring to replace both Blizzards - I loved it.  The metal laminate construction delivers a powerful ride, but the ski was still very quick and nimble (probably the result of the honeycomb tip and tail and the Quest shape).  And while it is not a powder ski, per se, I thought it was great in knee high powder, really fun, quick and solid.  More light and floatie than the Bonafide (again likely due to the strong platform blending into light soft tips), but somewhat similar feel in deeper snow.  With a turn radius of 20.5 and a width of 104, it kind of splits the difference between the Bonafide and the Cochise.  The QLab is quicker than either Blizzard but equally stout (but different).  The Cochise feels like it has a more consistent, progressive flex pattern, whereas you definitely feel the concentration of stiffness through the middle of the QLab.  But it works.  You get a firm, powerful ride, but the snow feel is more crisp, less round (more digital, less analog).  Relative to the Bonafide, the QLab feels both quicker and more "big mountain" at the same time.  That is the magic of this ski and why it is the first ski of in the width range that has me thinking of life after my Blizzard era.  On both demo days, I hated given this ski up.

 

Another sleeper ski that I liked a lot this spring was the Fischer Ranger 106.  More of a traditional feel, especially from the tail.  For something mid-100s, it is the best carver I've every experienced.  The ski is damp and smooth but not overly heavy.  It was awesome in about a foot of fresh powder in the morning (Green Valley/West Face) and in soft mixed conditions it railed.  The only negative at all was that I took it way over the edge toward the bottom in heavy, junky wet conditions.  Operator error, but I was trying to get to the edge of the envelop and my confidence in the ski was soaring from the time on top.  For comparison, I skied the QLab immediately afterward and took it right to the same run where I folded up on the Ranger (one of the old chair 1 runs) and the QLab just sliced it apart. But you are in eastern B.C. and Alberta, so heavy, wet snow isn't likely a huge issue - and I thought that the Ranger was a huge winner in the soft snow and on the hard pack.  If I were a regular at Mission Ridge, this would be my mid-100s, soft snow day choice.  It would also be great in that slot at places like Big White and Sun Peaks where there is a fair amount of groomer cruising getting around the mountain and a surface of generally light, dry snow.

 

So that's a few ideas.  FWIW, I demo'd the Ranger 106, QLab, my Bonafides, the Supernatural 108 in sequence in pretty comparable terrain and I liked the SN 108 a distant 4th.  I'd love to own any of the other 3 (or a Cochise) - which I do.  

 

Good luck and have a fun season.

 

So there's a few ides 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
 

And 2) Completely befuddled why you are thinking of a high 100's as your only ski for the Canadian Rockies. Which I have found to get fairly hard packed and bumpy between storms, and said storms don't always dump 6+". Lately have been fine there with a 94-98 mm. :dunno But I tend to ski the Banff area, realize if you are a Revelstoke guy, 108 would be a carver... 

OP mentioned that he owns a MX88 at 178.  :dunno   

post #5 of 17

The Cochise for 2015 is a different ski, it is 15% softer and has actual camber! IMHO it skis much better and almost like a 108mm Bonafide (@beyond, give it a try. Like you the previous gens didn't wow me). I do like the El Capo a lot too…especially at the price you can find a blem for. 

post #6 of 17
I'd put the ON3P Wrenegade 102 in the mix as well, I'm really curious to try this
post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the comments.   The unfortunate problem that I have here is not being able to demo - few ski stores have demo skis here. 

 

I never really had an issue with the 187 Bones other than I initially had to get used to tails in big hard bumps (that took a day or so - but  think the real problem was the tune as they skied much better after I re-tuned them) and occasionally had to work a bit in really tight spots.  I have to say that the Bones is in the list of my all time favorites.  While I love the Bones, I want to try something different, and the Bones will remain in the quiver.

 

I don't really agree with Beyond about the snow here; however, I know these mountains intimately and can usually find good snow (often cut up).  I'm also "self employed", which allows for going out whenever there is new snow, and I tend to ski other areas in BC a fair amount.   Having said that, it can get hard here during long spells without new snow - that is when the MX come out or I stay on groomed with true carvers.

 

The SN108 seems to leave lots of variability in impressions - some love it, while others say "just OK"  Makes me wonder whether the pre-production model tested by Blister  is a different ski than the actual production ski.

 

No hurry to buy a new ski, so I'll patiently look and read and listen.  Will look into the skis that all of you have suggested so far. 

 

Thanks again.

post #8 of 17
I am selling

A 179 line Sick Day 110 that is very playful and reasonably stable if you are not a hard charger. Pretty versatile at your weight. $499 plus shipping.Included Marker Jester. I day on them so they are mint.
post #9 of 17
Way less ski than the 187 Bone obviously.


What is your assessment of the atomic automatic. I just purchased this years ski. Thanks!
post #10 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmartini View Post

Way less ski than the 187 Bone obviously.


What is your assessment of the atomic automatic. I just purchased this years ski. Thanks!

 

Follow link....http://www.epicski.com/t/115311/atomic-automatics

 

Since then, I have used the 117 Automatics quite a bit more..

 

Not mentioned in my initial review....  I enjoyed the Autos in powder - had some great days at Kicking Horse, Louise and Sunshine.  No tip dive.  Could easily make the ski turn large fast swooping turns in a big bowl or smear shorter radius turns.  Fun in trees with deep snow and undulating terrain.

post #11 of 17
Thanks Canadianskier. Much appreciated your words they are.
post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianskier View Post
 

 

Follow link....http://www.epicski.com/t/115311/atomic-automatics

 

Since then, I have used the 117 Automatics quite a bit more..

 

Not mentioned in my initial review....  I enjoyed the Autos in powder - had some great days at Kicking Horse, Louise and Sunshine.  No tip dive.  Could easily make the ski turn large fast swooping turns in a big bowl or smear shorter radius turns.  Fun in trees with deep snow and undulating terrain.

 

The Atomic Auto 117 in 179  is my alltime favorite ski outwest.  It just rips.  I also own the Cochise in 177 and have to admit the Auto is way easier to ski in every condition I have thrown at it.  I can charge, ski trees, ski bumps and pretty much do anything on this ski.  The only thing the Cochise does better is rip groomers and fly through crud.  I do like the Cochise and really enjoy it as part of my quiver however the Auto is more fun.  Did you consider the Auto 109?  That ski was on my radar and was going to buy it but decided to get my wife a new set of skis.  Felt like I had that range covered in my quiver.  In addition to the Auto 117's and Cochise I also own the Bonafides in 173, Kastle FX94's in 176 and Nordica Soul Riders in 177 so thought getting the 109's would be complete overkill.  However I am really excited to hear some reviews on the 109's so why don't you get them and report back.  :D 

post #13 of 17

http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/2014-2015-line-supernatural-108

 

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

How well you are able to ski is related to how hard you are willing to fall.

post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 

Thanks Crudmaster

 

I read that.  There is a somewhat different opinion regarding the SN108s from other reviews, including that of LewyM (see above) and a discussion that I had with a shop owner who didn't order the 108 for his store because he was not overly impressed.

 

Also see - http://www.onthesnow.ca/gear/a/2211/2015-men-s-all-mountain-back-ski-buyers--guide-/supernatural%20108/line or http://earlyups.com/earlyups-test-sessions-line-supernatural-108/ 

 

I initially thought that the difference might be associated with Jonathan reviewing the pre-production model, but Brett Carroll at Blister also reviewed the production model and was also rather stoked about the ski.  I've seen skis that have had a lot of subjective variance - either you love it or don't - the Cham comes to mind as an example. Makes me wonder about what SN108 is about.

 

I also looked at the ON3P Wrenegade 102 yesterday - fairly stiff rockered ski that looks like a hard charger - However, I was not able to find any reviews of that ski anywhere.  Has anyone tried the Wren 102?

 

post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianskier View Post

 

I also looked at the ON3P Wrenegade 102 yesterday - fairly stiff rockered ski that looks like a hard charger - However, I was not able to find any reviews of that ski anywhere.  Has anyone tried the Wren 102?

 

some info and initial impressions here

 

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/274541-2014-2015-ON3P-Skis-(Official-Thread)-Discussion-and-Lust

post #16 of 17

I'm 5'11'' and 170lbs so I'm about your size. I have a pair of 2011 Line Prophet 90 (for everyday all-mountain cruising on groomers). But I prefer soft skis so I can be playful wherever. I've demoed the Supernaturals at Loon Mountain in NH last season. To be honest, I didn't care for them. The rubber dampening they've added to these skis made it feel really strange. The purpose of these rubber dampening is to quiet the skis on bumps but for me, it took out the responsiveness -- the feel you get in your boots between the skis and the surface of the snow. Yes it rides well in groomers but as soon as you take them off-piste, it honestly feels like driving a Cadillac through a rough pavement. That may be fine for most people, some might even prefer it, but I like the responsiveness feel. Edge hold and stability are all there. But I just didn't like the Supernaturals but that's just my opinion and I'm sure people will disagree. If you're looking for "turny" and poppy skis that can do everything and be stable, take a look at Blizzard Peacemaker or Regulator (or even Gunsmoke). All three share the same construction but just different waist width. They don't have metal but I think they're significantly stiffer than most freeride skis out there. These won't be as stiff or stable as Bonafides but due to its moderate tip/tail rocker, they will be very "turny" and it will give you the same amount of pop as Bonafides due to its solid Blizzard construction of good wood core, "flip core", vertical sidewalls and a decent amount of camber. 

post #17 of 17

What size qlab did you demo? I'm 6'2 210lbs, expert skier, love the bumps and steep tight trees...I'm torn between 183 and 190. I demo'd the K2 Pinnacle 105 and thought it was nice, but boring...I'm coming off the original Volkl Mantras. Thanks for any info you have.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Line Supernatural 108 vs Cochise