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roto-scraping? (or ways to make scraping easy) - Page 4

post #91 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post


BTW, what is all these talk about dowels. Thought they went extinct 20+ years ago. Killed off by the biscuits. If you need more beef than a biscuit can give you, go for the Festool Dominocool.gif  

Kinda hard to make hinges with biscuit and dominos. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post

Are you sure?  Before pic is on the left. after pic, is on the center and right.

Broken/chipped bit inside?
post #92 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
 

Are you sure?  Before pic is on the left. after pic, is on the center and right.


dope - i thought they're backwards :eek

 

:beercheer: 

post #93 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Kinda hard to make hinges with biscuit and dominos. tongue.gif
Broken/chipped bit inside?

Bit is fine, the motor is loose

post #94 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post

Bit is fine, the motor is loose

Sounds like an easy enough fix. I could try to tinker with it if it's useless otherwise. biggrin.gif
post #95 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
 
Bit is fine, the motor is loose

 

The motor is friction fitted in the plastic housing with two roll pins driven thru the top & bottom surfaces of the unit. If the roll pins are not proud of the unit surface then they are seated properly. Remove the large ventilated plastic cap at the end of unit immediately adjacent to the power jack and you can see how the roll pin affixes the motor unit within the housing. The roll pins should seat in the notches in the plastic motor casing. A quick visual inspection can verify the fit and condition of the pins & motor. They should be snug with no play and the plastic motor casing should be in good working condition. Another item that can cause excessive vibration that results in a rough cut could be a loose cutter bit bearing screws and/or defective cutter bearing. Access to the cutter bearing screw is thru a hole at the other end of the unit. Removal of the small plastic plug is required. You can also visually inspect the cutter bearing for play from the large hole located at the bottom of the unit while manipulating the cutter bearing screw with an hex key.

 

Hope that help. Good luck.      

post #96 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
 
Kinda hard to make hinges with biscuit and dominos. tongue.gif

 

Wooden hinges????? :eek

post #97 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhygin View Post
 

I made a version of a trim router-based scraper sharpener.  I think my total "in" costs were about $39 for the router, $9 for the bit and a lot of time to make the fence and alignment tool.  Works fantastic... so easy and better than anything I have tried.  Fairly cheap too!  I will try to post some pics this evening, but could "make a run" or 12 or so if people are interested.  I am in Newton, MA and Waterville Valley, NH if anyone wants to check it out.  Many dads of ski racers swing bye with 3 or 4 scrapers and I do them all at once and away they go!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhygin View Post
 


It took me a bit to get it right, but I have built some "swing" in the AL fence to allow for more or less material to be shaved in one pass. I find it works best to take 3 or so passes unless the scraper is really badly pitted or very concave from panzer type sharpeners that are commercially available.

 

I would see if I could get 12 or so, and just make a batch.  Would be pretty cheap all in...

Brad

Thanks, rhygin. Looks good.  Once I've toyed for a week or so with the fence plus sheetrock screen sort of like the one razie built (above), I'll know if I want to get an electric sharpener of the type you built or like the $150 one that KingGrump took apart.  You will have to pardon my ignorance here.  

 

The immediate thing I wonder about yours is where does the cutting debris go? Does it just go flying? 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

 

Pics of Mantac sharpener. 

 

Top

 

Bottom

 

Right Side

 

Pic of the top shows the feed groove is at an oblique angle to the cutter. The leaf spring in the feed groove keeps the scraper tight against the opposite wall. The oblique feed angle into the cutter allows for a smoother finish cut on the scraper. No scallops on the scraper edge, at least in the cross wise direction. The installed cutter is a ½” diameter x ¼” shank carbide straight router bit. For the home built unit with a right angle feed, a smoother cut can also be accomplished by using spiral flute straight router cutters.  

 

 

 

 

The cutting debris is collected in the cavity at the bottom of the unit. Usually trapped against the bench top - a pain. The side view shows a step above the feed groove. The step is 1/32” shallower on the out feed side. They just molded the out feed side of the feed groove higher to support the sharpened portion of the scraper. The support is necessary to eliminate snipping at the end of the cut. The 1/32” step is perfect with the UHMW tape I posted earlier. Also the UHMW tape makes everything super slick.

The actual power unit is much smaller than a normal trimmer motor. I can tell from the weight – about half if not smaller. The RPM is quite high, more than 20K. I used hearing protection with it.     

 

Overall, this is just an inexpensive take on a fixed jointer concept.

 

So since we’ve completed our reverse engineering process, who is going to build the first knock off? :eek

 

BTW, what is all these talk about dowels. Thought they went extinct 20+ years ago. Killed off by the biscuits. If you need more beef than a biscuit can give you, go for the Festool Domino:cool 

Thanks, KingGrump.  Amazing, to me.  Again, I apologize for my ignorance, but that $150(?) sharpener has several features that seem nice.  At least it traps the fine debris, if only in a tiny area.  That leaf spring would keep my butter fingers from careless, off kilter feeds, which I would tend to do, eventually.  The angled cut creating a smoother surface is something I wouldn't have figured out, but a nice feature.  

 

On the 1/32" out feed side step, isn't the out feed side you described earlier meant to be higher by just a shave (multiple alum tape or UHMW tape width(s)) to keep the scraper level in the router channel, after it loses material?  A 1/32" step seems pretty large for so little being shaved off at a time: does that encourage or allow too much being taken off at a time, the opposite, or an uneven amount?  In ignorance, I have a hard time visualizing how this step prevents "snipping" at the end of the cut, but would like to, especially since it is not a feature of rhygin's design.  

 

Also, on applying the UHMA tape to this Mantac--again, my ignorance--where to?  to both the out feed side and the in feed side? And to the side, or to just the narrow bottom of the slide track?  :) 

post #98 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post

Wooden hinges????? eek.gif

Heh, just some crude ones for folding legs on laptop trays, folding wall corner shelf and such. I think it's interesting to make them with only wood and glue.
post #99 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

Heh, just some crude ones for folding legs on laptop trays, folding wall corner shelf and such. I think it's interesting to make them with only wood and glue.

 

Kudos to you for being a purist. You are a much better man than I. ;)  

post #100 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post

Kudos to you for being a purist. You are a much better man than I. wink.gif   

Haha, not really a purist, just my nature as a tinker. If I had to do more than one or anything big, I'd run to the store for metal hardware and wood screws in a heart beat. biggrin.gif
post #101 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski otter View Post
 
Thanks, rhygin. Looks good.  Once I've toyed for a week or so with the fence plus sheetrock screen sort of like the one razie built (above), I'll know if I want to get an electric sharpener of the type you built or like the $150 one that KingGrump took apart.  You will have to pardon my ignorance here.  

 

The immediate thing I wonder about yours is where does the cutting debris go? Does it just go flying? 

 

On the 1/32" out feed side step, isn't the out feed side you described earlier meant to be higher by just a shave (multiple alum tape or UHMW tape width(s)) to keep the scraper level in the router channel, after it loses material?  A 1/32" step seems pretty large for so little being shaved off at a time: does that encourage or allow too much being taken off at a time, the opposite, or an uneven amount?  In ignorance, I have a hard time visualizing how this step prevents "snipping" at the end of the cut, but would like to, especially since it is not a feature of rhygin's design.  

 

Also, on applying the UHMA tape to this Mantac--again, my ignorance--where to?  to both the out feed side and the in feed side? And to the side, or to just the narrow bottom of the slide track?  :) 

 

As the cutter joints the edge a step is produced on the scraper edge just like in the attached image. Normally this new flat surface is supported by the out feed table (OFT) to prevent fore & aft rocking of the scraper. If the OFT is in line with the in feed table (IFT) this support will be absent. The forward part of the scraper will cantilever over the cutter, balanced there by the downward pressure on the rear section of the scraper supported by the IFT. As the cut comes to the end, the scraper comes off the IFT and drop downward into the cutter thus causing the dreaded snip at the end of the scraper. If the downward pressure is moved to the forward (jointed) portion of the scraper prior to completion of the cut, the scraper will tip downward and lift the rear of the scraper and the result would be a finished cut that is not a straight line.

 

rhygin’s design does not have the offset OFT but he is also using a rotary burr as the cutter, which will limit the depth of cut to probably a very thin shaving. Multiple passes will be required to achieve a fresh edge on the scraper. Tipping the front edge will result in a very minor kink in the scraper edge.   

 

The Mantac unit shown in the photos is of the entire unit with the exclusion of the laptop type power unit. The compactness of the unit and light weight is great for traveling. The entire housing appears to be machined from a block of Trax – synthetic decking. The fixed 1/32” depth of cut is dictated by the offset between the IFT & OFT. I find that the 1/32” depth of cut will put a totally fresh edge on the scraper in one pass consistently. I make my scrapers from plexi scraps I have laying around. I just cut them to size on a table saw and dress them with the Mantac sharpener. So cost of the scraper is not a issue for me. You can buy plexiglass sheets in various sizes at the local home centers at relatively low prices. You can also cut the plexi with a scratch & snap type plastic hand cutter.   

 

Just to clarify thing. The Mantac unit is good to go from the box. No additional fine tuning is necessary. I guess I wasn’t clear about the application of the various tapes. The tapes could be used to build up the OFT offset required if a straight fence on a home built unit. Better bet is to cut the offset between the IFT & OFT with a table saw as jzmtl suggested earlier.

 

Here is a quick hack summary to the EDGR unit. Think of it as a router table turn 90 degree on its side. Basically it is comprised of three main components

(01) The table / motor mount

(02) The fence / material support

(03) Bit guard, stock guide and chip ejection port. 

 

Once you figured out the function of each component you are there - minus the fabrication details. A vacuum hook up can also be added once the chip path is determined.          

post #102 of 127

Here is how it is done at Joe's Garage.

I true them up every now and then in the mill and then use wet sandpaper on a granite surface plate with a guide block every tune.

For a steel scraper I use a burred 1/2 inch square lathe bit in a Ski Visions holder.

post #103 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Haha, not really a purist, just my nature as a tinker. 

you're a gypsy? 

post #104 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

Here is how it is done at Joe's Garage.

I true them up every now and then in the mill and then use wet sandpaper on a granite surface plate with a guide block every tune.

For a steel scraper I use a burred 1/2 inch square lathe bit in a Ski Visions holder.

Let's see a pic of your stingray build!  I still havn't seen it

post #105 of 127

I did a couple of car shows over the summer and folks liked it.

 

 

post #106 of 127

Dude, that's insane!  nice paint, nice everything!

post #107 of 127

Thanks.

Now I'm redoing a bike I did about 15 years ago.

Needs a new clutch and an exhaust mod.

post #108 of 127

Is that the '65 bmw?

 

Man, I need to step it up in my project selections.  haha

post #109 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
 

Is that the '65 bmw?

 

Man, I need to step it up in my project selections.  haha


Good Eye!

1965 R69s.

post #110 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

Once you get down the steel, you never go back.  These are custom for fat skis and snowboards.

 

Jaques, you and I may be the only two Barking Bears who believe that unless you scrape with the force of Hercules, your ski base is completely ignorant of what material does the scraping.

 

And, of course, you need to have a bit of "touch" to avoid scraper/edge contact, which I then clean up with a couple quick passes with a plastic scraper.

 

I'd love to know more details about your custom sized scrapers (what stock you use, where it can be purchased, how you cut it to size, etc.).

 

Maybe a PM sometime, if you're so inclined, and thanks!

post #111 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRPufnStf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

Once you get down the steel, you never go back.  These are custom for fat skis and snowboards.

 

Jaques, you and I may be the only two Barking Bears who believe that unless you scrape with the force of Hercules, your ski base is completely ignorant of what material does the scraping.

 

And, of course, you need to have a bit of "touch" to avoid scraper/edge contact, which I then clean up with a couple quick passes with a plastic scraper.

 

I'd love to know more details about your custom sized scrapers (what stock you use, where it can be purchased, how you cut it to size, etc.).

 

Maybe a PM sometime, if you're so inclined, and thanks!


I had them cut at a sheet metal place.  They are like 1/8th inch thick.  Sharpening is a chore, but they hold a good edge.  Not sure what grade stainless it is, but quite hard.  If I feel burs when I hit an edge, I go over the inner side burs with a stone and scrape a bit more.  No burrs on inside of base edge, then it's all smooth.  I only use plastic to remove from edges to start the scrapes.

Be good and steel is the deal!  It's all in how sharp you keep them.  Super burred sharp to shave, not so sharp to scrape.

post #112 of 127

KingGrump... nice pic/diagram.  You have it exactly correct.  The bit that I use takes a very small cut, though the AL "fence" is adjustable to take more or less.  If you sharpen the scraper frequently, your are literally just "facing" the scraper. I do about 3 passes and done.  Across about 105 sets of skis last year, I went through about .75 - 1.00" of scraper.  I have not seen the EDGR unit disassembled, but it is what I tried to "re do."

 

Thanks!

post #113 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhygin View Post
 

KingGrump... nice pic/diagram.  You have it exactly correct.  The bit that I use takes a very small cut, though the AL "fence" is adjustable to take more or less.  If you sharpen the scraper frequently, your are literally just "facing" the scraper. I do about 3 passes and done.  Across about 105 sets of skis last year, I went through about .75 - 1.00" of scraper.  I have not seen the EDGR unit disassembled, but it is what I tried to "re do."

 

Thanks!

rhygin, this sounds very good, to me.  More what I'm wanting, I think.

 

I guess the 1/32nd" gap on the outfeed of the $150 unit explains why when I took my scrapers to a shop to get em sharpened, I got the ones with little edge scraper notches back without most of those notches.  They'd been ~1/32nd" cut right off! 

 

I've also realized I probably don't want a scraper that is too sharp, oddly enough  (tho judicious removal of the probable bur(s) there through side bur sanding a la Chenzo, post #48, might possibly solve this too).

 

Scraping with a "too sharp" plastic scraper, it seems I start to get dry, bare places on my just waxed bases even before brushing, probably in places the base has become slightly high over time.  Steadily using a "too sharp" scraper has led me to prematurely need a softer, "wetter" wax "renew" layer just to get all the base conditioned, wet enough again, before re-applying a harder cold weather wax, like what I need most often, and right now. Am I on the right track here, or missing something?

 

This is ideally, you understand.  Not necessarily what I'd do everytime, but much more often on some skis with such a sharp scraper.  

 

So I've also realized that I must be slightly barnishing my wax (or even bases slightly?), using a less than sharp scraper.  Which is fine by me, I think, esp. for dry snow conditions: wax wet base, smooth, shiny and very fast.  :)

 

 I'm guessing I'd want to rig up some sort of dust catcher to use your design, rhygin, not sure.  Maybe the light scrape releases too little dust to worry about. 

post #114 of 127

Why reinvent the wheel, just get the electric sharpener, you' ll never look back!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

Thanks.

Now I'm redoing a bike I did about 15 years ago.

Needs a new clutch and an exhaust mod.

Now your talkin'!!!!!  I am A BMW MOTORRAD rider!

 

Boxers forever! :D 

 

post #115 of 127
@ski otter, how do those "dry, bare" places look after brushing? Are they grey and fuzzy, or are they blended in with the rest of the base? I have the same experience of some areas being cleared of surface wax and others not because of uneven spots in the base, but after I brush, the whole base looks and feels dry, but if I rub a finger across it I can see a slight waxy trace.

Remember, the point is to get the wax into the base, not to create a waxy surface.
post #116 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

@ski otter, how do those "dry, bare" places look after brushing? Are they grey and fuzzy, or are they blended in with the rest of the base? I have the same experience of some areas being cleared of surface wax and others not because of uneven spots in the base, but after I brush, the whole base looks and feels dry, but if I rub a finger across it I can see a slight waxy trace.

Remember, the point is to get the wax into the base, not to create a waxy surface.

Once I brush, it gets better, more blended.  A little less shiny, uneven but blended.  There's a "slight waxy trace," also a slight shine.  Thanks. 

post #117 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski otter View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

@ski otter, how do those "dry, bare" places look after brushing? Are they grey and fuzzy, or are they blended in with the rest of the base? I have the same experience of some areas being cleared of surface wax and others not because of uneven spots in the base, but after I brush, the whole base looks and feels dry, but if I rub a finger across it I can see a slight waxy trace.


Remember, the point is to get the wax into the base, not to create a waxy surface.
Once I brush, it gets better, more blended.  A little less shiny, uneven but blended.  There's a "slight waxy trace," also a slight shine.  Thanks. 

I just waxed a few pair and got to use my brand spankin' new super-stiff scrapers. It's been a while since I've used a new scraper, I guess, because boy these guys are sharp! But they didn't scrape anything dry; they just got almost all the excess wax off much, much faster than any of my old scrapers do even when freshly "sharpened."

BTW, in order to remove the wax from the base, I'd think you pretty much have to be removing the surface of the p-tex, in which case you'd notice streaks of black in your wax scrapings. So I wouldn't fret too much about it. biggrin.gif
post #118 of 127
By the way, I'd forgotten what a sharp scraper is like. The new ones made short work of removing the wax, getting more off with less pressure than I need to use with my usual half-sharp scrapers, and that greatly reduced the amount of brushing I had to do. In fact, it all went so fast that roto-brushing now seems completely unnecessary--so long as I have sharp scrapers.

Which creates a conundrum. I'd like to wait until @rhygin does his thing, but now that I've seen the difference the condition of my scraper makes to one of my favorite activities I'm kinda in a hurry to resolve this. My palm router arrives on Monday, and I'll spend some time fooling around with a basic single-purpose fence, but if I can't get it together quickly I need to decide whether to hit up Wild Rose for a box full of scrapers or drop $160 for a Mantac. That's a big investment for someone who's only waxing a couple pairs of skis every week or two, especially considering that I doubt I'd spend nearly that much on scrapers for the whole season if I tossed them (or gave them away) as soon as they got dull.

Sigh.
post #119 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

By the way, I'd forgotten what a sharp scraper is like. The new ones made short work of removing the wax, getting more off with less pressure than I need to use with my usual half-sharp scrapers, and that greatly reduced the amount of brushing I had to do. In fact, it all went so fast that roto-brushing now seems completely unnecessary--so long as I have sharp scrapers.

Which creates a conundrum. I'd like to wait until @rhygin does his thing, but now that I've seen the difference the condition of my scraper makes to one of my favorite activities I'm kinda in a hurry to resolve this. My palm router arrives on Monday, and I'll spend some time fooling around with a basic single-purpose fence, but if I can't get it together quickly I need to decide whether to hit up Wild Rose for a box full of scrapers or drop $160 for a Mantac. That's a big investment for someone who's only waxing a couple pairs of skis every week or two, especially considering that I doubt I'd spend nearly that much on scrapers for the whole season if I tossed them (or gave them away) as soon as they got dull.

Sigh.


Just go with steel, forget the roto brushes. Forget about sharpening plastic. Really though, all you need is a jig and some sandpaper!

post #120 of 127
I grew up old - school, so I'll lay it down. Take a perfect milled piece of hardwood( square and screw 90 degrees to a wall. Place a rough high quality file tail at wall, flats on surface. Then place scraper on file against wood and push against file. Rotate every pass. A few passes and its good. Never put too much wax on the ski, just enough to cover ski evenly thin! My old boss would kick my bumn if I had a big pile of wax after scraping. High end wax is not cheap to waste! Pushing too hard with a scraper will degrade ones structure in the ski. Then brush out with a few hand brushes. Nylon stiff, brass soft, then natural boars hair brush. Brush tip to tail always. I don't like roto brushes because they heat up the wax again if not done right and can take off to much of what ya just put on which will give ya less runs, that will cause one to go slow faster.
Good luck.
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