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MA for another 12 year old - Page 6

post #151 of 176
Thread Starter 

@LiquidFeet  and @docbrad66  how should he be taller, in SL ? Do you mean taller in transition (i.e. long legs) or taller at the gate (i.e. long leg and inclined) ? OR hips higher off the snow?

 

i.e. how would you fix these frames (which frames):

 

 

 

if  you mean long leg at apex, that was what he worked on Sunday, yes, he tends to be a little too compact and should have a longer outside leg at apex - in progress.

 

cheers


Edited by razie - 2/17/15 at 5:00am
post #152 of 176

I was referring to this:

   more speed = less angles (your comment)

 and to the "hinging at the waist", perhaps a remnant of the penguins and outside hand/outside boot drills.

 

See how vertical Mikaela's upper body is:

  http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/clinic-practice-makes-perfect

 

IMO, the gates didn't allow him to break at the waist, and that improved his skiing.

post #153 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

I was referring to this:

   more speed = less angles (your comment)

 and to the "hinging at the waist", perhaps a remnant of the penguins and outside hand/outside boot drills.

 

See how vertical Mikaela's upper body is:

  http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/clinic-practice-makes-perfect

 

IMO, the gates didn't allow him to break at the waist, and that improved his skiing.


so, referring to that photo of Mikaela's upper body, is that what you mean he should be taller? i.e. his upper body? Because her hip is very close to the snow.... I think in free skiing that part is ok. he's not bending forward as much at the waist now. in gates he's inclining, which I don't like, but it's early and that takes a long time - he's still getting comfortable with the gates.

 

he is angulating at the hips a lot more now - not using the spine that much, which again is very good in my book (lazy - used an older photo, but shows the snow/hip/shoulders relationship well):

 

 

is this what you meant by breaking at the waist? sideways vs forward? i.e. is this good or bad (this is my reference for a SL turn):

 

 

I'm really interested in what you see, because quite the contrary, I would say his skiing falls apart in gates. He's not getting any performance from the skis anymore, turn shape is out of whack, upper body inclined and rotated... all quite expected in fact, but you like something that you see there, so I'm interested what that is...

 

Sorry - my comment of more speed = less angles refered to getting the same turn shape at higher speed with less angles. Given him not being strong yet, he can't use big angles at speed - specifically, the last run - this goes also to how upright his upper body can be at max turn forces. Sure, he could manage turn shape / pressure and still use big angles, but that's why i pointed it out - that tells me he is looking for performance from the ski, not hip to snow... at least not always :rolleyes

 

p.s. sorry - being a little thick here, as usual I guess - but trying really to understand precisely what you mean... I often need things broken down and explained... :(


Edited by razie - 2/17/15 at 7:09am
post #154 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

I like what blocking those slalom gates is doing for his hands and stance.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post

 

I'm curious how he would look through the gates with both poles held horizontal the whole run, forcing him to keep his hands high...

 

yeah - I should start to pay more attention to his hands and pole plants now. I've just let him ski and goof around with minimal feedback, for a few weekends... he'll loose them poles and lock his hands all next weekend :D that should improve his balance as well.

 

cheers

post #155 of 176

Can he ski stubbies without the technique breaking down?

 

Can he ski free ski SL turns with speed control and turn length control? It seems his free ski turns are much longer than typical gate distances so no wonder he cannot bring it into the gates.

A nice trick for this is to have the kids count the number of turns, on a 700m hill they should make about 70 turns on SL skis. If it is signifiantly less they are skiing GS turns on SL skis.


Edited by Jamt - 2/17/15 at 7:54am
post #156 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Can he ski stubbies without the technique breaking down?

 

Can he ski free ski SL turns with speed control and turn length control? It seems his free ski turns are much longer than typical gate distances so no wonder he cannot bring it into the gates.

A nice trick for this is to have the kids count the number of turns, on a 700m hill they should make about 70 turns on SL skis. If it is signifiantly less they are skiing GS turns on SL skis.


totally. his focus for the past couple weeks was getting the body across the slope as much as possible. time to put all that ski performance and flexing to good use, now... how do I speed up his release? counting turns should help. going to brushes should help. more time in stubbies yeah. more ideas?

 

i'll do some Korean turns competitions with him :eek 

post #157 of 176

Hi Razie

 this guy is a D-teamer.  These are medium radius and note how he gets low as a way to manage the forces and get high angles

 via his knees and ankles, not hip/waist

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-lgX65esDo&list=PLzQXTRaJe4cLttZc3Qr8biWJp497aYSU7&feature=share

post #158 of 176
@docbrad66
We must do MA differently because there is a lot of separation at the pelvis in the video you referenced... With tipping driven by the feet and ankles.
post #159 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

@docbrad66
We must do MA differently because there is a lot of separation at the pelvis in the video you referenced... With tipping driven by the feet and ankles.

 

@HeluvaSkier   I think we agree so maybe I didn't word my post very well - i (also) see the feet and ankles start everything,  (the hip / torso is NOT dumped into the turn all at once)

 

I posted this in contrast to the earlier videos where "getting low" seemed early, artificial and forced 

 

As Heluva points out, there is separation at the waist but NOT hinging at the waist in an attempt to get hands close to the snow.


Edited by docbrad66 - 2/18/15 at 2:31pm
post #160 of 176
Thread Starter 

Hey - I just stumbled onto his first video on skis - likely his first time on skis as well - you'll see him muttering about how stupid it is to be gliding on these things when you could just walk instead... I do see a bit of improvement there... his turns seem a little more round, now...?

 

 

:beercheer: 

post #161 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

 

@HeluvaSkier   I think we agree so maybe I didn't word my post very well - i (also) see the feet and ankles start everything,  (the hip / torso is NOT dumped into the turn all at once)

 

I posted this in contrast to the earlier videos where "getting low" seemed early, artificial and forced


you mean he was hip dumping - yeah, he was sometime ago, especially last season and the beginning of this sometimes - just trying too hard to reach down, I don't think he is now though - do you still see some of those faults in the current free skiing below?

 

 

cheers

post #162 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


so, referring to that photo of Mikaela's upper body, is that what you mean he should be taller? i.e. his upper body? Because her hip is very close to the snow.... I think in free skiing that part is ok. he's not bending forward as much at the waist now. in gates he's inclining, which I don't like, but it's early and that takes a long time - he's still getting comfortable with the gates.

 

he is angulating at the hips a lot more now - not using the spine that much, which again is very good in my book (lazy - used an older photo, but shows the snow/hip/shoulders relationship well):

 

 

is this what you meant by breaking at the waist? sideways vs forward? i.e. is this good or bad (this is my reference for a SL turn):

 

 

I'm really interested in what you see, because quite the contrary, I would say his skiing falls apart in gates. He's not getting any performance from the skis anymore, turn shape is out of whack, upper body inclined and rotated... all quite expected in fact, but you like something that you see there, so I'm interested what that is...

   Skiing gates is harder than not skiing gates.  IMO the gates forced him to be more upright above the hips and less "hinging" at the waist.

   The huge angles above develop as the feet are directed outside while the body/COM takes the inside line

 

Sorry - my comment of more speed = less angles refered to getting the same turn shape at higher speed with less angles. Given him not being strong yet, he can't use big angles at speed - specifically, the last run - this goes also to how upright his upper body can be at max turn forces. Sure, he could manage turn shape / pressure and still use big angles, but that's why i pointed it out - that tells me he is looking for performance from the ski, not hip to snow... at least not always :rolleyes

   More vertical in the spine drives the pressure to the big toe edge of the outside ski and down into the snow

   If we simply "fall inside" we put the weight inside and we cant hold the line as well. 

 

 

p.s. sorry - being a little thick here, as usual I guess - but trying really to understand precisely what you mean... I often need things broken down and explained... :(

post #163 of 176
Thread Starter 
Ok. I understand what you mean now. I don't know - his upper body seems apropriately forward, on average, in free ski, say very close to this:

That doesn't really bother me right now. It used to be much worse... Working on the fine tuning of the release tip/untip and what Jamt said I think will be priorities for a while. So are the hands.

Cheers.
post #164 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post

 

 More vertical in the spine drives the pressure to the big toe edge of the outside ski and down into the snow

   If we simply "fall inside" we put the weight inside and we cant hold the line as well. 

Agree, to some extent. I think you are talking about hip angulation / counterbalance. It has to be appropriate to the speed and tipping angle though, i.e. turn radius. "Vertical" is just a rule of thumb, not an absolute. Also, the faster you go and the tighter you turn, the stronger core you need to angulate... and also, the more tired you'll be and also, the more balance range of motion you loose (by tightening and co-contracting your core muscles).

 

It is often a lack of counter/CA that requires a lot of verticality.

 

In fact, if I stop and think about it, the more vertical the body at the apex, the more side to side movement there would be inside a slalom corridor and the slower the run. Some inclination may in fact be faster... at least on paper and perhaps marginally anyways...

 

?

 

To split hairs, we shoudl also look at WHERE max pressure comes, that's when you need the skeleton aligned and if it's BEFORE the fall line, then perhaps a slightly more vertical core would help, indeed. Most analysis is a static affair... unlike skiing :)

 

heh, cheers

post #165 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Agree, to some extent. I think you are talking about hip angulation / counterbalance. It has to be appropriate to the speed and tipping angle though, i.e. turn radius. "Vertical" is just a rule of thumb, not an absolute. Also, the faster you go and the tighter you turn, the stronger core you need to angulate... and also, the more tired you'll be and also, the more balance range of motion you loose (by tightening and co-contracting your core muscles).

 

It is often a lack of counter/CA that requires a lot of verticality.

 

In fact, if I stop and think about it, the more vertical the body at the apex, the more side to side movement there would be inside a slalom corridor and the slower the run. Some inclination may in fact be faster... at least on paper and perhaps marginally anyways...

 

?

 

To split hairs, we shoudl also look at WHERE max pressure comes, that's when you need the skeleton aligned and if it's BEFORE the fall line, then perhaps a slightly more vertical core would help, indeed. Most analysis is a static affair... unlike skiing :)

 

heh, cheers

 

I'm not sure agree with you here.

    1) If "less vertical" were faster, that's what Ted and Mikaela and Lindsey would be doing...no?

 

    2) its not clear to me why you think Max Pressure is before the fall line.  I would suggest it is shortly AFTER the fall line,

        when the energy of the skier (ie mass) wants to go down the fall line but the tipping and steering movements re-direct the skier back across the hill)

        (slightly off topic - this is why "park and ride" seems so fun - the "ride" part is when the skier can really FEEL the forces)

 

   3) In slalom, only the skis have to be outside the gates, so staying vertical in the spine is the best way to do that.  Inclining in for a left footed gate

       would then mean inclining in the other way for the upcoming right footed gate, much more motion/time than letting the feet take the longer path

 

 

Look at the slalom racer in  post 153.  If that racer allowed his spine to fall in (to the VIEWERS left), he would LOSE downward pressure on the skis,

 and probably fall on his inside hip, no?  The skis bite better with more downward pressure, achieved with the torso being more upright than the legs.

post #166 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

 

I'm not sure agree with you here.

    1) If "less vertical" were faster, that's what Ted and Mikaela and Lindsey would be doing...no?

 

they are doing.

 

I just freeze framed all the turns in the first 20 seconds of this and she is rarely vertical. Close to, for sure, but rarely vertical. Even the still of the video shows a lack of verticality. In SL the tactics are often quite obscure, especially at the highest levels. It is not all pure technique we're looking at.

 

 

Anyways, I don't think our disagreement here is of substance, so let's keep some tension by continuing to slightly disagree :) :)

 

thanks and cheers,

raz

post #167 of 176

Let me try it a different way:  the tilt in her spine is less than in her legs (inclination due to legs, angulation due to hips).  And that's good skiing

post #168 of 176
Thread Starter 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

Let me try it a different way:  the tilt in her spine is less than in her legs (inclination due to legs, angulation due to hips).  And that's good skiing

 

yes, totally. I was I guess nitpicking on the "vertical" :) edit/ just for the record, I still slightly disagree on grounds on feeling like disagreeing slightly

 

:duel:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

    2) its not clear to me why you think Max Pressure is before the fall line.  I would suggest it is shortly AFTER the fall line,

        when the energy of the skier (ie mass) wants to go down the fall line but the tipping and steering movements re-direct the skier back across the hill)

        (slightly off topic - this is why "park and ride" seems so fun - the "ride" part is when the skier can really FEEL the forces)

 

it depends on too many things, but it's largely around the fall line, agree. You can slow down or accelerate or maintain speed anywhere... one can even slow down by applying pressure in an edge locked carve before the fall line :eek if you so choose. Not me, certainly, but good racers tend to start to release by the fall line to plan a better line for the next gate. That's my understanding of it, anyways.

 

In free skiing, there is no line, so I would say yes, it would be generally after the fall line to control speed. But it depends on the turn shape. You can always do whatever you want.

 

As a rule of thumb though, you push snow UP the hill to accelerate and DOWN the hill to slow down.

 

chers

post #169 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 one can even slow down by applying pressure in an edge locked carve before the fall line :eek if you so choose. 

 

Can you clarify this statement? How do you see these mechanics working? 

post #170 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Can you clarify this statement? How do you see these mechanics working? 
if you can grt your body over the skis really early, get upside down and really pressure the ski.

Ii'll have to play with that again to find the words to maybe describe it in detail, the idea is to work against the direction of travel and usually when you overbend the tips, you get that. It is a matter of what part of the ski you bend and how that is leveraged versus your body/com and direction of travel. It sounds a bit weird, I know.

Remember that it is slow to stay hard on the ski too much... That's qhy to maximize speed you need to apply short impulses to the ski, not stay hard on the edges.

s also from increasing the friction - I don't remember the details, I will play with it if I don't forget.
post #171 of 176

whoops, wrong thread.

post #172 of 176
Thread Starter 
How is this for pulling back that foot?



And that's how you make it stick:

post #173 of 176
Thread Starter 

Here are some of the things we worked on through the season, many in slow drills, all visible in that one photo:
 

 

All these elements are engrained sufficiently so that he pulled them out of a hat on a off-camber turn off a bump, where grip was hard to come by... where others wiped out or lost seconds or went through the next gate.

 

The same elements are also visible here, much more refined: 

 

 

I think he turned out all right after all :D There is a lot more work ahead now, to refine these and learn more. He did some gates with the group, but I generally favored technical free skiing to gates, to lock in the technique and experiment, at his development level. Now he'll start to spend a little more time in gates - his tactics need work :cool.

 

Come to think that he was skiing like this late last season, never having carved a ski at that point:

 

 

cheers and thanks to all.

 

:beercheer: 


Edited by razie - 2/24/15 at 6:06pm
post #174 of 176
Thread Starter 

got more photos... showing his tactics need a lot of work...

 

 

and his signature move (interestingly, not a lot of weight on that inside ski, keeps bending the other one) ... under the gate, for now

 

 

he is still mesmerized by the darn gates and heads straight for them... and whenever I start yelling, he does the cute Dracula thing:

 

 

thanks and cheers

post #175 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Here are some of the things we worked on through the season, many in slow drills, all visible in that one photo:
 

 

All these elements are engrained sufficiently so that he pulled them out of a hat on a off-camber turn off a bump, where grip was hard to come by... where others wiped out or lost seconds or went through the next gate.

 

The same elements are also visible here, much more refined: 

 

 

I think he turned out all right after all :D There is a lot more work ahead now, to refine these and learn more. He did some gates with the group, but I generally favored technical free skiing to gates, to lock in the technique and experiment, at his development level. Now he'll start to spend a little more time in gates - his tactics need work :cool.

 

Come to think that he was skiing like this late last season, never having carved a ski at that point:

 

 

cheers and thanks to all.

 

:beercheer: 

 

From where I come from, I'd say you are on the right track.     Looking good.  Oh to be young in body again.  YM

post #176 of 176
Thread Starter 

End of season nears... with I think some progress - did couple runs working on that release sequence.

 

 

 

 

thanks and cheers

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