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How are you conditioning yourself for the ski season? - Page 5

post #121 of 321

I also don't think much about VO2max, as I also am really never out of breath on the slopes. I'm in the gym for the bumps. (2000' nonstop? Seriously? Wow. That's like the entire vertical of Kant Mak M or Joint Point)

 

As to skating uphill. They have these newfangled things out there. I think they call them lifts.

post #122 of 321
It's not just about skiing. It's about living a long fit life. (So I can ski )
post #123 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

Watched (actually listened to) the first video on my drive today.  Interesting piece.  I'd like to see if he did different kinds of cardio training if his VO2 max would have improved or if he'd consistently be a non responder.  Also would like to see more data on people who it did improve their VO2.

Yeah, you know it's funny. My wife and I were talking about that program about a month after I viewed it. Her recollection was how disappointed he was that he was a non  responder. I had totally forgotten that aspect of the program. What I remembered was the stationary bike footage and whether or how I was going to incorporate that into my regimen to improve my skiing.

 

If I understand the science correctly, I believe that he is genetically doomed to be a non responder. No amount of training is going to change that cold fact. Don't forget, though, he did benefit from the standpoint of improving his insulin sensitivity, so the effort was not all in vain

post #124 of 321

Yes, that's just how I understood it as well.

post #125 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmoliu View Post
 

I also don't think much about VO2max, as I also am really never out of breath on the slopes. I'm in the gym for the bumps. (2000' nonstop? Seriously? Wow. That's like the entire vertical of Kant Mak M or Joint Point)

 

As to skating uphill. They have these newfangled things out there. I think they call them lifts.


I know, but our lift is really slow, so I can skate to the patient before I would be able to get off the lift at the top of the hill if the patient is less than 1/4 of the way up.

post #126 of 321
A friend of mine has an prime directive: always downhill. I guess that can't always happen for you.
post #127 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmoliu View Post
 

I also don't think much about VO2max, as I also am really never out of breath on the slopes.

I do agree that being in the gym can yield big benefits for the bumps, but sucking wind... should you ever happen to do that, would be less of a problem with high intensity training along with strength work.  Being strong and having intensity in your program will help during demanding skiing - as I see it.

 

This has been my experience, but any distance training is not something that I like to do.

post #128 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post

For those of you advocating cardio training, how many of you feel limited from a cardio point of view in your skiing? I rarely find cardiovascular capacity or endurance to be the limiter in my skiing, rather it tends to be strength. I stop skiing because of leg fatigue, not because I have to catch my breath (including skiing 2,000 vertical feet of bumps non-stop). 

 

I'm sure it's different for everyone, but endurance is why I'm training for skiing.

 

I want to be able to ski bell-to-bell on a huge powder day.   Better yet, bell-to-bell-to-bell-to-bell on two back to back powder days.  

 

On days like that there is a kings ransom of powder for the few that can ski to last lift.  People drop like flies in the afternoon.  They just can't continue In spite of unbelievable snow.

 

I'm thinking in particular about the back to back huge powder days in Colorado last year (Feb 1?).   I was fine day one.  Thankfully my hall pass ran out at 2:30 day two, as I don't think I would have made it to closing bell.   I remember a bunch of us posting we were totally fried.

 

Huge powder days are a real endurance challenge.  How do you train for that?   

 

Here's my guess: something like 100 mile MTB race training + 800M dash training, including the appropriate strength programs for each.   Anybody got a better idea?

post #129 of 321

The proof for my thesis above....  

 

Posts about those big back-to-back CO pow days last year start here:

http://www.epicski.com/t/122168/2013-2014-colorado-new-mexico-weather-discussion/420#post_1682099

 

My post from the lift at closing time showing NOBODY on the lift or slopes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tball View Post

Still dumping on last lift. Tomorrow gonna be good.

 

And, the self-reported carnage after day 2:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpfreaq View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGASkiDawg View Post

...my legs are toast.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpfreaq View Post

Body needs a rest.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post
 

 My quads are noodles. ;)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tball View Post Ouch.  Got to get in better shape.

Hey @segbrown, all those early season days paying off for you?

 

 

Conclusion: some form of serious endurance training is called for to play at the top level of the pow pow game.

post #130 of 321
I don't know, Tball, that's sounding like strength rather than cardiovascular endurance. Perhaps more work on squats, leg press, Bulgarians, etc focused on reps? And maybe some focus on efficiency in skiing as well?

Granted, I was fatigued at the end of day on my heli trip this year, but it didn't seem that cardio was the limiter...

Mike
post #131 of 321

It seems to me big pow days requires muscular endurance (different than strength) plus the physical stamina to continue a strenuous activity for six or so hours. 

 

The exhaustion in my legs and body at the end of a day like that feels similar to what I feel at the end of a a six hour MTB race.  I think the training might be similar, except skiing has bursts of activity interspersed with a lot more rest.    The bursts are similar duration to an 800M race, so it seems like 800M training would be called for too.  

 

How would you train to run thirty 800M races over the course of six hours? 

post #132 of 321

If we accept the premise that training for any athletic endeavor must be targeted at the specific endeavor, down to its last detail, then training must be acutely focused on those details. A sprinter must train at his given distance. A marathoner must train to target 26.2 miles. A shotputter must train with a 16# weight. A 100 mi. MTB jaunt best prepares you for the next time you do 100 mi. on a MTB. Powder skiing is enough different from groomer skiing that training on groomers is not sufficient for peak powder performance. Training for powder skiing must be done in powder. Back to back days are good; back to back to back days are better.

 

 

Where do I sign up?

post #133 of 321

I agree with your premise of specificity, but ski season is short so we need dry land train when there is no snow.   Big powder days are few and far between making them very hard to train for specifically.   Some folks are better prepared than others.   Why is that? 

 

I've been in great shape going into some seasons and horrible shape others.   On an average ski day it doesn't matter, at least for me, but on a big powder day being in great shape helps enormously.

post #134 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post

For those of you advocating cardio training, how many of you feel limited from a cardio point of view in your skiing? I rarely find cardiovascular capacity or endurance to be the limiter in my skiing, rather it tends to be strength. I stop skiing because of leg fatigue, not because I have to catch my breath (including skiing 2,000 vertical feet of bumps non-stop). I've never had my VO2 max tested, but from 5 years of serious cycling training, I don't think it has improved much as evidenced by my relatively unmoving short duration power figures. Which has me questioning why some of you would focus on HIIT for VO2 max improvement to benefit skiing? Some of the cycling training books I've read cite physiology studies that have found that HIIT can achieve about 85% of the benefit of long endurance training, but that's a time saver, not a VO2 max effect. In cycling, VO2 max is important primarily for sprinting and short duration above threshold efforts. It can also change your anaerobic threshold, but I don't see a benefit for my skiing from that?

That being said, I do think training for skiing should include a mixture of cardio and strength training. But that's more for balance than anything else.

Mike

I  agree. It is very much inline with what I said in post 78 http://www.epicski.com/t/128891/how-are-you-conditioning-yourself-for-the-ski-season/60#post_1771575

 

Strength, reactive strength, explosive strength, strength endurance, strength recovery and anarobic capacity is so much more important. A base level of Vo2Max is good to have but IMO you get enough of that if you train for the former.

post #135 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by tball View Post
 

I agree with your premise of specificity, but ski season is short so we need dry land train when there is no snow.   Big powder days are few and far between making them very hard to train for specifically.   Some folks are better prepared than others.   Why is that? 

 

I've been in great shape going into some seasons and horrible shape others.   On an average ski day it doesn't matter, at least for me, but on a big powder day being in great shape helps enormously.

Hmm, I'm much more beat up after a inbound day than a powder day. Much larger forces.

post #136 of 321

No argument there. Ya gotta make hay while the sun shines.

 

I think the point I was trying to make, aside from trying to get a laugh, is that there's nothing like being called on to perform at the time that performance is required. Everything in this thread has great relevance. But in the end, its all an approximation. A best guess exercise. Everybody participating here is tossing what seems to best work for them into the thread.

post #137 of 321

 Eliminated soda a year ago. So, far I've lost 20 lbs. I feel great. I may throw off and extra five pounds for good measure. My secret was eating less food. Now with hockey season around the corner I'm going to start skating. Hockey has no skiing specific application; I like to play hockey so that's how I plan to spend the next few months preparing for skiing. As for my seasonal goals: I plan to visit as many of the Montana area resorts as possible; then in February, I'm heading to either New Mexico or Utah. Oh, and I plan to land the helicopter this season and start putting into lines on the hill.

post #138 of 321
This HIIT stuff is interesting. And Ben Greenfield's discussion is illuminating. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/03/best-ways-to-build-endurance-2/
post #139 of 321

from Cosmoliu:

 

"Everything in this thread has great relevance. But in the end, its all an approximation. A best guess exercise. Everybody participating here is tossing what seems to best work for them into the thread."

 

---------

I think that for older skiers a conditioning program might be different from that of a younger athlete.  Some people do not have an athletic background.  I received huge results from a shorter, high intensity work out with heavy lifting added,  I lost 35 lbs, while many were of the impression that my weight was fine.  It wasn't!  This alone improved my athletic performance on the hill.  Weight loss was not on my goals list, but it was awesome!

 

But I still felt my legs at the end of the day.  I have always had a problem with skiing long days... complete days.  But I have always had a serious problem with fatigue, long before I began training in a serious way.

 

If I had opted for an aerobic program I doubt much would have been accomplished.  The strength aspect helped my hiking for turns.  The guys I skied with hugely noticed my conditioning and how it affected my skiing performance.   But my experience does not mean that emphasis on aerobic conditions wouldn't be good for other people or for me for that matter. 

post #140 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post

For those of you advocating cardio training, how many of you feel limited from a cardio point of view in your skiing? I rarely find cardiovascular capacity or endurance to be the limiter in my skiing, rather it tends to be strength. I stop skiing because of leg fatigue, not because I have to catch my breath (including skiing 2,000 vertical feet of bumps non-stop). I've never had my VO2 max tested, but from 5 years of serious cycling training, I don't think it has improved much as evidenced by my relatively unmoving short duration power figures. Which has me questioning why some of you would focus on HIIT for VO2 max improvement to benefit skiing? Some of the cycling training books I've read cite physiology studies that have found that HIIT can achieve about 85% of the benefit of long endurance training, but that's a time saver, not a VO2 max effect. In cycling, VO2 max is important primarily for sprinting and short duration above threshold efforts. It can also change your anaerobic threshold, but I don't see a benefit for my skiing from that?

That being said, I do think training for skiing should include a mixture of cardio and strength training. But that's more for balance than anything else.

Mike

This is one of the biggest disconnects between the performance world and the rec gym world. The USST pays huge attention to aerobic fitness, as one example. VO2 max isn't very useful, though, and not that important. One of the reasons serious athletes don't rely on HIIT is that it doesn't train the aerobic adaptations they want as well as other approaches. If you lift your LT you will see very meaningful on hill performance benefits. I have never met a good skier or rider who hasn't. A2000 ft bump run is actually a good example. A competitive bump run would clearly be predominantly anaerobic. Bumpers still spend hours on a bike for ski prep, but that is more to be able to last a full training day. A recreational skier sling long bump runs is doing multiple sustained bouts of predominantly aerobic exertion, and not surprisingly aerobic fitness helps a lot at doing well at predominantly aerobic athletic efforts.
post #141 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post


This is one of the biggest disconnects between the performance world and the rec gym world. The USST pays huge attention to aerobic fitness, as one example. VO2 max isn't very useful, though, and not that important. One of the reasons serious athletes don't rely on HIIT is that it doesn't train the aerobic adaptations they want as well as other approaches. If you lift your LT you will see very meaningful on hill performance benefits. I have never met a good skier or rider who hasn't. A2000 ft bump run is actually a good example. A competitive bump run would clearly be predominantly anaerobic. Bumpers still spend hours on a bike for ski prep, but that is more to be able to last a full training day. A recreational skier sling long bump runs is doing multiple sustained bouts of predominantly aerobic exertion, and not surprisingly aerobic fitness helps a lot at doing well at predominantly aerobic athletic efforts.

I agree that LT is very important. I'm a bit puzzled though, because LT is an anaerobic measure and it is usually trained at intensities higher than aerobic training, like HIIT.  Vo2Max is an aerobic capacity measure and it is trained at lower intensities although it has been shown that the central part of oxygen uptake is also improved by HIIT.

It is true that HIIT alone is not enough, but the 80/20 arobic/hit rule than many professional athletes use is fine when you train 30+ hours per week, not so much for normal people. 

 

Do you have any references backing up the claim that race skiing is "predominantly aerobic athletic efforts"?

My interpretation of a sport with "predominantly aerobic athletic efforts" is that you perform it primarily without lactic acid, like e.g. a marathon. 

post #142 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tball View Post
 

I agree with your premise of specificity, but ski season is short so we need dry land train when there is no snow.   Big powder days are few and far between making them very hard to train for specifically.   Some folks are better prepared than others.   Why is that? 

 

I've been in great shape going into some seasons and horrible shape others.   On an average ski day it doesn't matter, at least for me, but on a big powder day being in great shape helps enormously.

Hmm, I'm much more beat up after a inbound day than a powder day. Much larger forces.

 

I'd agree on a typical powder day, but on a huge day like that it's a different deal.   It was knee to waist deep snow all day for two days.  You had to work for it, though.   Little traverses and hikes were a slog with lots and lots of polling.  You could get untracked by just breaking trail to shots that you normally ski right up to.  Most folks were just too spent to break trail in 30+ inches.  

 

And, there were no groomers left after it snowed so much during the day.  Normal easy run outs were bumped out, or more like whoop de doos.  I particularly remember the long Upper Enchanted to Super Bee run out beating the crap out of me enough I had to consider the toll it was going to take on the rest of the afternoon.  Normally you can tuck the top of that and haul ass on the bottom, but with that much snow it became a painful leg burner.  

 

It's just a whole different deal on a day like that.   I was probably best prepared for days like that after working construction labor summers in college.  Second to that were summers when I did multiple triathlons and ultra distance MTB races.   I'm not sure how to best prepare now that I don't have time (or willingness :rolleyes) to do either, but I think a 4+ hour MTB ride at altitude is a good start.  Hoping to get one of those in tomorrow :D 

post #143 of 321

Are people really questioning the usefulness of improving endurance?

 

:nono:

post #144 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

I agree that LT is very important. I'm a bit puzzled though, because LT is an anaerobic measure and it is usually trained at intensities higher than aerobic training, like HIIT.  Vo2Max is an aerobic capacity measure and it is trained at lower intensities although it has been shown that the central part of oxygen uptake is also improved by HIIT.

It is true that HIIT alone is not enough, but the 80/20 arobic/hit rule than many professional athletes use is fine when you train 30+ hours per week, not so much for normal people. 

 

Do you have any references backing up the claim that race skiing is "predominantly aerobic athletic efforts"?

My interpretation of a sport with "predominantly aerobic athletic efforts" is that you perform it primarily without lactic acid, like e.g. a marathon. 

 

You've gotten a lot of things wrong here.  To start with, LT is a measure of aerobic system efficiency, more or less.  This is why it's important in sport with significant aerobic components, alpine skiing included.  While heart rate zones are only approximations and not that useful for precise measurement, the HR associated with LT is well below HR at VO2 max.  VO2 max training is done at higher intensities, not lower, than LT.  VO2 max training has also been known for a long time to be a bit of dead end, because in highly trained athletes VO2 doesn't keep improving (without doping) though aerobic performance can and does. 

 

As one example, way back in Maier's day when he was spending all that time on a bike and getting pricked constantly to measure lactate, that was a clue that he was training LT and not doing higher intensity, shorter intervals aimed at training VO2 max. 

 

You are misrepresenting my plain words as regard something being predominantly aerobic.  What I said was "[a] competitive bump run would clearly be predominantly anaerobic. Bumpers still spend hours on a bike for ski prep, but that is more to be able to last a full training day. A recreational skier sling long bump runs is doing multiple sustained bouts of predominantly aerobic exertion, and not surprisingly aerobic fitness helps a lot at doing well at predominantly aerobic athletic efforts."  If you don't understand why a long bump run by a recreational skier is by definition going to be predominantly aerobic, you need to review basic physiology and other background research. 

 

As for ski racing, let me quote Troy Flanagan, which I had done earlier in this thread as well:  "Interestingly, although the sport is traditionally viewed as anaerobic, the last thirty seconds of a [sg or dh] race is primarily aerobic". http://my.ussa.org/sites/default/files/documents/athletics/freestyle/2014-15/documents/Summary%20Papers%202014%20SC%20Symposium.pdf   He is talking one all-out race run, not multiple recreational runs at lower intensities and longer durations.  I also note that the shift to aerobic system predominance happens fairly early in that race run, though sources of energy utilized for the run as a whole cross over later because the first 30 seconds are predominantly anaerobic. 

 

FWIW, you also misunderstand the role of lactate.  Many athletic events that are well over LT for their entire duration still rely predominantly on the aerobic system, and require very extensive aerobic training, at a range of intensities.  The 800 and 1500 and even 5k in running are all good examples of this.

post #145 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarry18 View Post
 

 Eliminated soda a year ago. So, far I've lost 20 lbs. I feel great. I may throw off and extra five pounds for good measure. My secret was eating less food. 

And, so that's the key. There is no way to lose weight by exercise alone, the diet must be adjusted. I ran across some figures the other day that really brought that home: a pound of fat is worth about 3,500 calories. Running an entire marathon expends about 2,500 calories above baseline. 


Edited by cosmoliu - 10/7/14 at 4:24pm
post #146 of 321

More from Troy Flanagan:   "Now several studies have shown that in a two minute all-out exhaustive exercise bout, over half of your ATP energy produced in the muscles is done by the aerobic system....If you want to improve your ability to last a long run and to back up for many runs in a day or even several days of skiing in a row, then aerobic training can really help out...[for the weekend warrior] I would suggest 60 minutes at least three times per week to complement your training."  http://www.athlete2-0.com/5-exercises-1-x-secret-tip-improve-skiing-performance/

 

So that people understand he is not some fringe guy, he's the High Performance Director for USSA, or more or less the head guy for training the USST.  And the other leading alpine race efforts are pretty much in line with what the US is doing in this regard, and in fact that US followed the Austrians' lead. 

post #147 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post

This HIIT stuff is interesting. And Ben Greenfield's discussion is illuminating. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/03/best-ways-to-build-endurance-2/

A huge THANK YOU for posting that link. Before clicking on it, I was actually hoping that it would be critical of HIIT because 1) I have read very few negative articles about HIIT (actually, only one) and 2) I was beginning to think I was becoming too shrill a fan boy of HIIT. I was happy to find the article extremely balanced and scientifically based, with an alternative take on HIIT than what I have acquired. I love to see an author extensively footnote his writings. I will definitely bookmark the link.

post #148 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

 If you lift your LT you will see very meaningful on hill performance benefits. 

What is LT, please?

post #149 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmoliu View Post
 

What is LT, please?


Lactate threshold.  Without sounding harsh, if you don't know what LT is, I'd hold off on the enthusiasm for HIIT until doing some background research.  I'd extend that to say that LT is easily measured, and so one thing that gets referred to frequently, but likewise should not be a sole focus.

post #150 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post


One of the reasons serious athletes don't rely on HIIT is that it doesn't train the aerobic adaptations they want as well as other approaches. 

Not sure what you are really asserting here -- that serious athletes don't use HIIT at all, or don't use it exclusively?  Because as far as I know, any performance cyclist uses HIIT as part of their training regime.  That's what all that interval work is for.  It may be more focused than a simple HIIT protocol, but I don't know of any training protocol that doesn't use interval training, including short duration (1 minute) intervals as part of the regime...

 

Or perhaps you are inferring that cyclists are not serious athletes. (I think it is fair to claim that are not complete athletes since they avoid building any muscle mass other than that necessary for propelling the bike down the road).

 

Mike

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