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Skiing Errors on ice (POLL) - Page 3

Poll Results: What is to dominate error you see in hinders most skiers on ice.

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 32% of voters (13)
    Poor Balance
  • 22% of voters (9)
    Poor Stance (general)
  • 15% of voters (6)
    Poor stance in turns
  • 15% of voters (6)
    Poor turn timing
  • 32% of voters (13)
    Poor turn initiation
  • 10% of voters (4)
    Poor follow through on turns
  • 40% of voters (16)
    Jamming edges (technique)
  • 32% of voters (13)
    Poor edges (skies)
  • 25% of voters (10)
    Skier tenseness (or stiffenss) during turn
  • 27% of voters (11)
    Leaning into the hill
40 Total Votes  
post #61 of 85
 
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

But I have tried to explain this before, you must let your tips hook up in the opposite direction of your travel. This engages the tips and begins the bending of the skis.

 

Atomicman, still interested in understanding your point clearly. Using this as an example...

 

 

This is what I'm seeing...

 

:30 Still in hard right turn on right edges, moving right across the hill

:34 Starting transition, moving right across the hill

:43 Neutral, moving right across the hill

:45 Left edges starting to engage, still moving right across the hill

:52 Left edges fully engaged, starting to move left across the hill

 

At transition she starts retracting and throws in a mild stivot while her skis are off the snow until her edges re-engage at :45. But even given it's not a purely/fully carved turn would you say Vonn is doing what you describe above at about :45 seconds into the video?

 

If you don't feel this vid provides a good example can you post a super slo mo of someone and break it down as I tried to above?

post #62 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperkub View Post
 

 

The analogy is not exact, but yes you do turn left to turn right skiing, because each turn is linked. As you reach the end of turning left your body continues down the fall line and crosses over the skis  and suddenly you are turning right. And when done right it feels almost effortless, like gravity is doing most of the work. Sounds pretty like "minimal input from the driver".  By contrast, if you are straightlining down the hill it's actually quite difficult to put in an aggressive turn and you have to wrestle with the skis a lot more.

NOT SURE.  i WILL SEE WHAT i CAN FIND. And AM NOT SURE IT LOOKS ALL THAT DIFFERENT THAN NORMAL SKIING. it may be very subtle and somewhat a mental attitude.

 

2 things though. The snow looks soft in that video, so I am not sure you would need to employ ice tacticsw. Women apparantly don't race on ijected snow as much as men. 

 

The other important aspect is steepness. I generally only employ this technique on a slope too hard (snow hardness) and too steep to easily carve on, where underfoot chatter can become a problem. 

 

And I often dealso deal with by redireecting the top of the turn and catving the bottom of the turn. Which is a bit different than the let your tips hook up move.

 

Often times racers leave some technique behind in search of pure speed. For example the hard core a-frame at that end of her turn.

post #63 of 85

Chrome does some really weird stuff on Epic, I can't cut, only paste. And I have no idea why my previous post ended up quoting the wrong post, it is in reference to the Vonn video

post #64 of 85
Quote:Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

Atomicman, still interested in understanding your point clearly. Using this as an example...

 

 

 

This is what I'm seeing...

 

:30 Still in hard right turn on right edges, moving right across the hill

:34 Starting transition, moving right across the hill

:43 Neutral, moving right across the hill

:45 Left edges starting to engage, still moving right across the hill

:52 Left edges fully engaged, starting to move left across the hill

 

At transition she starts retracting and throws in a mild stivot while her skis are off the snow until her edges re-engage at :45. But even given it's not a purely/fully carved turn would you say Vonn is doing what you describe above at about :45 seconds into the video?

 

If you don't feel this vid provides a good example can you post a super slo mo of someone and break it down as I tried to above?

 

 

Check this out.  I think you can see him pressing his tips away from the turn instead of  pressuring the  middle of the ski straight down in a quite a number of these turns


Edited by Atomicman - 12/2/14 at 5:07pm
post #65 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Conservation of force. 
It is gravity that supplies the force to press the edges down.  There is a reaction force pressing the ski edges up, transmitted to you.  F=ma.  That force will affect your vertical acceleration, either stopping you from coming down so fast, or making you move up faster.  There is only so much upwards acceleration available before you end up too far from the surface to be effective.  Don't let the downward force keeping the edges pressed into the snow be all used up before you really need it.  It's not much needed in your (cross-under) transition when no great turn forces are acting, so be light there, and stay light until you need more pressure, but keep enough pressure down to keep the edge cutting the ice.
"Conservation of force". That's a new one. Somehow I missed out on that in physics grad school.


It's not mine; I read it here somewhere.  If you have an understanding of physics, you can call it conservation of impulse (force times time), which will be your change of momentum (acceleration - which is limited by the vertical dimensions of your chosen path down the hill that you need to stay on).  But for most people the idea that there is only so much down force available without ending up reaching for the snow while way up in the air is easier to understand.

post #66 of 85
 
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

NOT SURE.  i WILL SEE WHAT i CAN FIND. And AM NOT SURE IT LOOKS ALL THAT DIFFERENT THAN NORMAL SKIING. it may be very subtle and somewhat a mental attitude.

 

So did you not see the "let your tips hook up in the opposite direction of your travel" move in Vonn's skiing?

 

And are you saying this is something more that the skier feels, maybe something an observer can't see??

 

Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

Check this out.  I think you can see him pressing his tips away from the turn instead of the pressuring the  middle of the ski straight down in a quite a number of these turns

 

Sorry for being dense/slow, but I'm still not getting it. Could you take at least one turn in that Hirscher vid and break it down like I did for the Vonn vid, specifying exactly (with time offsets) where he does the "let your tips hook up in the opposite direction of your travel" thing?

post #67 of 85
Thread Starter 

I think this video is better and gives running commentary.

post #68 of 85
 
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

Check this out.  I think you can see him pressing his tips away from the turn instead of the pressuring the  middle of the ski straight down in a quite a number of these turns

 

There are a lot of cleanly carved turns when he's skiing closer to the fall line, but also much stivoting and controlled side-slipping throughout that run when he's not so close. I think people who are trying to learn to ski ice - mere mortals, not racers, much less WC racers - are not going to be skiing so close to the fall line.

 
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

I think this video is better and gives running commentary.

 

To my eye Ligety's turn at 1:00 proceeds pretty much like Vonn's that I attempted to describe above in post #61. He pressures his old inside ski more and earlier than does she, and his turn is more dynamic (and he's probably traveling faster), otherwise pretty similar.

 

The more I think about it, experience it, and hear others describe it skiing ice seems more and more like juggling pins or playing fingerstyle guitar - there's a bunch of stuff going on simultaneously that has to mesh just right and happen in harmony. If you've never done it at all and just walk up and try you will almost certainly fail. There are some things you can avoid doing that will help keep you from failing outright. There are some things you can do that will lead you toward being able to do the full thing. But ultimately the only way to do the full thing is to keep trying to do the full thing until you can do the full thing.

 

That being said I would love to see a video of someone (not a racer on course) skiing a steepish icy slope slowly and in control, completing their turns well across the hill, and making smooth transitions with their skis on the snow, not redirecting while up in the air off the snow. Anyone know of such?

post #69 of 85
Thread Starter 
As funny as this sounds the videos of us mortals would look very similar to the racers when we are doing it correctly, the difference would be the extreme levels that the racers reach. The advantage of seeing a racer do it correctly such as Ligety is how exaggerated all the moves are and when errors are made how easily they are seen and that they must occurred at specific location (gates).

Back to the topic at hand and looking at the poll, I think that balance is still the biggest error even though jamming the skis is listed higher as jamming (spivots) servers 2 purposes besides being a symptom of balance issues. The first is speed control which all skiers do, the second is a Hail Mary can't carve but gotta get the skis around onto the new line to make the turn. This was done on straight skis and on shaped skis it's no different as it happens for the same reason generally of getting late into the turn so the skier can not carve the turn. Ligety video is a very good example as you can see when he is playing catchup via his spivots.

Corrected typo.
Edited by oldschoolskier - 12/2/14 at 12:36pm
post #70 of 85

Someone agrees with you - balance, balance, balance! ( And soft edges. ;-)

 

 

 

 

Another one, things to try, errors to avoid...

 

 

post #71 of 85
If you can get any edge bite at all you can build on that. Progressive patient movements. Some skis work better than others in these conditions.
post #72 of 85
I've asked this question before, but this seems a better thread.
If you are skiing a no fall zone on firm snow or ice, what is the safest way down m
Sliding turns, pivot and carve the end, soft edge or?
post #73 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post

I've asked this question before, but this seems a better thread.
If you are skiing a no fall zone on firm snow or ice, what is the safest way down m
Sliding turns, pivot and carve the end, soft edge or?


Side slipping.

post #74 of 85

Why would you ski an icy no fall zone?

post #75 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

Why would you ski an icy no fall zone?


Too lazy to climb back up?:dunno

post #76 of 85
not too lazy, but I wouldn't want to take skis off in a steep, icy couloir
post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post

not too lazy, but I wouldn't want to take skis off in a steep, icy couloir

 

No, way too many bad accidents start with "I took my skis off".

post #78 of 85

For sure, DO NOT take off your skis (unless you have crampons to replace them with).

post #79 of 85
Even trying to take a ski off and putting a crampon on is dangerous.

But anyway, this was not my w question.
post #80 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post

I've asked this question before, but this seems a better thread.
If you are skiing a no fall zone on firm snow or ice, what is the safest way down m
Sliding turns, pivot and carve the end, soft edge or?

The easy answer is not getting into that situation in the first place!

 

The second answer is whatever make it safe and comfortable to get down.

post #81 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post

I've asked this question before, but this seems a better thread.
If you are skiing a no fall zone on firm snow or ice, what is the safest way down m
Sliding turns, pivot and carve the end, soft edge or?

Skiing a no fall zone on ice with skills such that you have to ask this question needlessly endangers the lives of the rescue personnel who may be sent to retrieve your carcass.
post #82 of 85
Sharp edges, you don't know what ski skills I have, so please dont assume.

I think the question is legitimate, I ski a lot of steep couloirs in the sierras, and sometimes they are firm.

I've experimented with various turns, and it seems that a low edge angle turn provides the safest alternative.

Emphasis here is on getting down safely.
post #83 of 85

Seems like a legitimate question to me. I too would like to hear some answers from the ice meisters.

 

On an ice-related note I recently watched a video Goldmember posted of the Mahre Brothers skiing powder, and that inspired me to read "No Hill Too Fast" again. In it Steve relates how at the 1976 Olympics he was slated to ski slalom, but because it was an icy hill, and by his own admission "I wasn't a strong ice skier that early in my career, coming from the Pacific Northwest, where the snow tends to be soft most of the time" he went to his coach and backed out, allowing a better "ice skier" on the team to compete in the slalom. This was a guy that grew up on skis (literally on a ski hill!) and competed from an early age!

 

Says a lot about Steve Mahre, and also comforting to know that even the best struggle, and can get better over time. He did go on to have quite a good career after that. Wish he posted here.  ;-)

post #84 of 85

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post

Sharp edges, you don't know what ski skills I have, so please dont assume.

I think the question is legitimate, I ski a lot of steep couloirs in the sierras, and sometimes they are firm.

I've experimented with various turns, and it seems that a low edge angle turn provides the safest alternative.

Emphasis here is on getting down safely.

 

Nice response time.  He is saying if you have to ask the question, you probably - like oh so many others - have no business skiing what you describe.

 

OTOH, there is a ton of good advice in this thread, especially this:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

The keys to skiing on ice are pretty much summed up as follows (no particular order):

  • Balance on your outside ski's big toe edge, upper body movements should be toward the weighted ski and down the hill... not away from it or up/into the hill
  • Learn to transfer that balance without pushing on/off the old outside ski and without pivoting
  • Engage your edges long before the fall line without the pivoting mentioned above... by the fall line you should be thinking about releasing... the turn is over
  • Absorb everything, the turns, the terrain, the "rebound" you'll feel between turns (and ice can give a TON of it)... absorb, absorb, absorb
  • Never stop moving; every movement must be active, deliberate, often extreme, but still smooth and progressive; the moment you stop flexing, extending, tipping, untipping, countering, or counter balancing... sh!t goes bad
  • Rule #5: Harden the f#@k up. Skiing on ice is loud, the surface is rough, it is very fast, your legs will burn more than usual, your shins will absorb more shock than normal, and the penalty for errors can be severe. If you don't man (or woman) up, and instead, ski terrified and stiff as a board, pivoting your way into the fall line while standing firmly on two flat skis, you might as well be a toboggan, not a skier, because the end result will be the same as if you were a toboggan.

 

 

post #85 of 85
Thread Starter 
I will say that as a Southern Ontario skier our surface starts out hardback and turns to ice, so the assumption of good edges was natural as if you don't you've got nothing to start with.

The next thing the seems to dominate is balance and jamming edges. This a common problem in skiing in general and a good comment that applies here is
"You can't carve and ice proved it" sums it up very nicely as anything done wrong just gets sets you down on ice.

Edit for typing on iPhone.
Edited by oldschoolskier - 1/7/15 at 7:28am
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