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Shimming the Delta

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

Hey Gang, 

 

I have a tech question and I'm not sure where to start.  My wife is dialing in her setup, namely her boots and stance and our boot fitter has instructed me to get her Delta to 0.  It is currently at +8.  She's a beginner/intermediate on a Dynastar with a Look 10 binder (separate toe/heel).  I have seen the spacer/riser toe plates for look bindings, but cannot find a place to buy or understand their delta significance.  The other option is to fabricate my own riser for the toe.  Using the right density plastic and getting my hands on some longer screws.  

 

Also, I have considered putting a more significant plate on the ski, but wanted to see what you all think first.

 

Just not sure.  I know the delta has to change, 8+ is way too much for a beginner, the fact they are making them like this now is troubling to me as I can see the negative affects on the snow.

post #2 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepCold View Post
 

Hey Gang, 

 

I have a tech question and I'm not sure where to start.  My wife is dialing in her setup, namely her boots and stance and our boot fitter has instructed me to get her Delta to 0.  It is currently at +8.  She's a beginner/intermediate on a Dynastar with a Look 10 binder (separate toe/heel).  I have seen the spacer/riser toe plates for look bindings, but cannot find a place to buy or understand their delta significance.  The other option is to fabricate my own riser for the toe.  Using the right density plastic and getting my hands on some longer screws.  

 

Also, I have considered putting a more significant plate on the ski, but wanted to see what you all think first.

 

Just not sure.  I know the delta has to change, 8+ is way too much for a beginner, the fact they are making them like this now is troubling to me as I can see the negative affects on the snow.

Isn't there a way to lower the heel? So you are saying her heel is 8mm higher than her toe?  You shouyld be able to get factory spacer with the proper length screws. 

 

I've never liked 0 delta. But if that is what your bootfitter prescribed. 2-4MM is pretty standard fare.  

 

And have you seen next years Atomic RAMPTECH?

 

When a skier turns at top speed, RAMP Tech 
automatically increases the ramp angle under the heel by up to 10°. This pushes their bodyweight 
forward and keeps them perfectly centralized over their ski. 

 

post #3 of 13

I have a pair of Look 12s  that I found also had a big delta. I was able to locate a Look spacer for under the front that got it from something like  8 degrees down to 2 or 3 but not completely to 0. One thing you will need to measure  is the actual difference in mm between the heel and toe as the spacers come in mm rather than degrees. (It wasn't clear if the 8+ was mm or degrees.) Essentially, the spacer is just hard plastic sized to the toe piece with appropriate holes. I know people fabricate their own but Look does make them in different thicknesses. You can stack multiples together and epoxy them to achieve a specific height. As Atomicman said, you just need to make sure you have a screw in the right length after you've raised the toe piece.

 

In terms of the delta, I know that this is an area in which different people like different setups. I had a discussion on this topic with Graham Lonetto of Edgewise at Stowe who had been the head tech for the US women's technical team for the SLC Olympics and he indicated that different skiers performed better with different binding deltas - some flat, others fairly extreme, some even toe high. So I am not sure that it is critical to get to completely level.

post #4 of 13
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys, that's helpful.
post #5 of 13
Thread Starter 

If anyone has another thought about this or knows the best way to purchase some Look toe pieces, I'd be appreciative

post #6 of 13

Best to go through a local shop.  Dynastar/Look/Rossi parts are hard to come by on your own.  

 

If this fails you can either buy a different binding or fabricate a riser out of the hard plastic cutting board material (spacing on the name of it right now).  People have done this to get the Dynafit touring bindings to 0.

post #7 of 13
Thread Starter 

Thanks maineac

post #8 of 13

vsirin,

 

     One other factor involved in Delta (heel/toe height differential) is, that as the boot sole shortens, the angle created by the difference in heel to toe height, tilts the boot more (a 22.0 boot would be tilted to a steeper angle than a 26.0)  This, combined with the forward lean of the boot cuff and the circumference of the skiers calf (at the top of the liner) will determine the over all effect.

 

     The skier will "back seat" and have burning quads all day, will have a hard time initiating the new turn and will step the uphill ski to begin the new turn.   We are talking about a fore/aft balance problem here.  Ideally you want the skier to be able to center up (center of mass just ahead of boot sole center) when extended,---- definition of extended---- where the femur and torso are stacked up and are almost perpendicular to the floor.

 

What size boot is she in?

 

what size calf muscle at the top of the liner?

 

mike

post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post
 

vsirin,

 

     One other factor involved in Delta (heel/toe height differential) is, that as the boot sole shortens, the angle created by the difference in heel to toe height, tilts the boot more (a 22.0 boot would be tilted to a steeper angle than a 26.0)  This, combined with the forward lean of the boot cuff and the circumference of the skiers calf (at the top of the liner) will determine the over all effect.

 

     The skier will "back seat" and have burning quads all day, will have a hard time initiating the new turn and will step the uphill ski to begin the new turn.   We are talking about a fore/aft balance problem here.  Ideally you want the skier to be able to center up (center of mass just ahead of boot sole center) when extended,---- definition of extended---- where the femur and torso are stacked up and are almost perpendicular to the floor.

 

What size boot is she in?

 

what size calf muscle at the top of the liner?

 

mike

That's true, I should have mentioned this.  She is in a 275-6mm Lange (80 flex).  I will be able to get her calf width this weekend.  there are other issues as well that the fitter knows about, namely, right leg is 3mm shorter than left, she needs to have the inner portion of her boots shaved down (not sure what the tech is called) but he says he can start working so long as the bindings are 0, or as close to that as possible.

post #10 of 13
Thread Starter 

Hey Miketsc,

 

Her calf is 12" at the top of the upper cuff.  The length of her lower leg is a little long for the height of the boot, but she is an athletic beginner, and I have an intermediate Booster to help with response, flex, and rebound. 

 

Does the below process make sense? I'm trying to think through what happens when....

 

1. Ski/ Binding becomes Delta Neutral +/- 1*-2*

2. 3mm plate is added to the sole of right boot (shorter leg)

3. Alignment/canting/shaving (not sure what term applies) of the inside edge length on both boots on micro-adjustment stair plates that raised the outside of the boot when she was standing on a flat board

 

Or does the shaving take place on the PU of the boot when the toe and heel plates are taken off and then the toe/heel plates reattached to beveled sole?

post #11 of 13

Boot sole planing can only be done on a solid soled boot----if you have removable treads on the bottom of the boot, I would not plane them.

 

What brand and model boot is she skiing?

 

mike

post #12 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post
 

Boot sole planing can only be done on a solid soled boot----if you have removable treads on the bottom of the boot, I would not plane them.

 

What brand and model boot is she skiing?

 

mike

Gotcha, that makes sense.  

 

She's in a '13 Lange RX 

 

http://www.rei.com/product/838875/lange-exclusive-rx-80-lv-ski-boots-womens-20122013

post #13 of 13

At zero delta your wifes' boots need only 50mm of distance measured at the back of the liner at the top of the shell to a vertical line behind the heel of the boot, to be centered correctly.

(where the picture shows the forward lean)  by the way, this is how Tecnica measures forward lean, instead of publishing a forward lean angle.  Those 5 extra mm of forward lean, combined with the large amount of Delta are the problem.  The human balance system can sense and be messed up by as little as 2mm too much or too little forward lean---we can still ski--- but will expend a great deal more energy and not enjoy the experience as much (we learn to accommodate----wahoo!).

 

Lange RX ladies boots all have 55mm of forward lean at this position---too much for your wifes' calf size.

 

The shell can be flared to the rear if needed to accommodate this issue, You can view a tool made to do this kind of adjustment at the address below:

 

 

http://southernski.com/toe-jam-spreader-ultimate-cuff-stretcher.html

 

mike

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