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A thanks, and some more advice wanted - Page 3

post #61 of 75
Thread Starter 

So i had a weekend on the skis, without touching the bases, half because i didn't have time to get to a shop by the mountain, and half because i wanted to see how bad they would be.

 

Turning just felt all off, hard to control and it really threw off my entire technique - it was like using a completely different set of skis than when i first tried them - which was really nice.

 

The ski tuning shop on the mountain detuned the tip and tail for me as they said they were sharp, would be catching and had not been detuned at all. This helped a bit with turning. But it definitely just didn't feel right, it felt like i was skiing a different set of skis to when i first tried them. They offered 0.7 base 2 edge as thats what they use in their large automatic waxing/sharpening machine.

 

Last night a friend used my gear to tune their twin tips, which seemed to turn out really well. They used the file to set the base angle and it was cutting nicely, then the diamond stones progressively to sharpen and you could hear a different tone per stone and visibly see the edge getting more polished and feeling sharper. While i dont have a true bar, putting a couple of metal objects (like the edge of the file) on the base of the ski, and you could see a distinct but tiny bit of light coming through.

 

Except when i go today to look at taking my bases down to 1 degree myself, as based on how well tuning those had gone. But instead I get none of this. No satisfying cutting sound from the file, barely anything from the stone. And yet when putting the file and another metal bar on it, i cant see the same sliver of light coming through as i could on the twin tips. Unfortunately i don't have a true bar.

 

And this happens, so i stopped since i was certain it wasn't meant to. The 1-2mm strip down the side by the edge appears to be just scratching the base.

 

 

Left a bit confused here, any idea what's going on?

post #62 of 75
Did the skis feel grabby or swimmy or unresponsive when you skied? Tips or tails catching? Or just unpredictable?

If the original shop left the base edges at 90 degrees there should be a lot of material coming off to get them to 1 degree. Could you post a pic of your file on the tool with the tool lying on the base, just to make sure it's set up right?
post #63 of 75
Thread Starter 

I would say grabby. The fact that the detune (though with sandpaper) on the front and back helped turning makes me more confident of this, before i felt i was catching the edge. I can't be more precise unfortunately, mainly because i felt like i couldn't lean my weight forward as much, causing me to stand more vertical and throwing off my technique which made it harder to figure out what was going on.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/o6ff6btqu7sa9nv/AAD4ouiEZX14vG6CFVexfVYea

 

Am i right in thinking because you can see a notable difference between the metal of the beveller and the metal edge, then its definitely not down near 1 degree? or is this thinking flawed?

 

Wondering if im angling the file wrong. It sort of makes more of a... vvvv noise running over it rather than the cutting sound. The odd thing is this is exactly how we used it on the Line twin tips. There aren't harder to cut metals are there? its a SVST Chromium Dipped IceCut file. 

post #64 of 75
If there were light between a flatness tester and the edge, it's more than zero; if your file is positioned correctly and it's not touching the edge, there's more than one degree on it.

There's another possibility, which is that the edges are work-hardened by whatever machines were used to tune them, in which case a metal file will just slide over the edge instead of cutting. If that's the cas you need to soften the edge with a diamond stone or Arkansas stone (sandpaper wrapped around a file works too, but I like the natural stone for this). Arkansas stones are a little short but still work fine with a Final Cut guide. Try it on an inch or two of the base edge and see if that makes a difference. .
post #65 of 75
Thread Starter 

From what i can see, there isnt any light (especially compared to seeing what 1 degree looked like on the twin tips). But on a couple of spots where ive had the file remove some material, i can see a speck of light.

I just realised i should be making sure its actually diagonal corner to corner across TFC (as per their video), so that probably isn't helping. But when you say not touching the edge, can you clarify? I was referring to how there seems to be a notable difference between the height of the metal on the TFC thats hanging over the edge, and the edge itself, and you can see this in the photos. I figure when its closer to 1 degree, the two are going to line up more than that.

 

Ah the hardness might explain why im getting a dramatically different sound from these than the other set of skis.

 

Would a 100 grit moonflex be the right thing to go over it with? My pocket svst arkansas only just fits the beveller so i can try that too. Tomorrow though, its nearly midnight.

 

Any comments on the scratching of the base though? that concerns me a bit. Or is this normal and you don't need to be worried about protecting your base from a file/stones scratching it?

post #66 of 75
You're cutting the edge and the plastic. The edge was likely already at one degree or more. Now filing just goes into the ptex since the edge is already done. Doesnt take a lot to file qse edges

Dont have people "detune" skis. Its good they only used sandpaper but edges can be ruined by detuning. That technique is more for straight skis. Shape skis should not be detuned and you should avoid places that suggest it. Its likely your base of the ski is not flat or there was a burr on the edge.
post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

You're cutting the edge and the plastic. The edge was likely already at one degree or more. Now filing just goes into the ptex since the edge is already done. Doesnt take a lot to file qse edges

Dont have people "detune" skis. Its good they only used sandpaper but edges can be ruined by detuning. That technique is more for straight skis. Shape skis should not be detuned and you should avoid places that suggest it. Its likely your base of the ski is not flat or there was a burr on the edge.

A Hanging burr! 

 

Take an arkansas stone or surgical stone (not a gummi stone) place it flat against the base edge (best to do this with the ski in a vise side edge up bases away from you ) and make a couple medium pressure passes making sure to keep the stone flat to the base edge. It is best if about 1/4 to 1/3 the stone is above the side edge and use your thumb as a guide on the sidewall. . 

 

99.9% tof the time the shop does not do this. (Ignorance usually!) Not removing the hanging burr created by tuning the side edges will cause exactly the symptoms you have described.


Edited by Atomicman - 8/14/14 at 8:55am
post #68 of 75
Thread Starter 

I might just get a better shop to set the angles correctly and if they deem a stone grind has to be done for this, so be it. But i'm going to take another look tonight.

 

When you look at those photos though, wouldn't you expect to see less of a gap between the file and the base beveller below it if it was already at 1 degree or more? And you would see less of the edge too? About half a millimetre is visible in photos 2 and 4.

I would expect after using that 1 degree base bevel for the two to be very close together.

 

The hanging burr also sounds like a plausible theory.

post #69 of 75
I really can't tell anything from the Dropbox pictures, sorry. Get a carpenter's square or metal ruler, anything straight, because the file is really hard to figure out.

From the picture you posted, it looks like you've decreased the base bevel. When you cut into the p-tex with the file, you're filing the metal starting from the side furthest from the edge of the ski. If you were to run a felt tip pen along the edge and then use the file, you'd see the ink staying on the outer part of the edge, and as you kept filing into the base more and more of the ink would come off, until it was all gone and the bevel would be pretty much zero.

I suggest you take a marker to the base edge, and then run something not-very-abrasive along it with your Final Cut. Don't use your alcohol-water mixture heavily because it'll smear the marker (but keep it nearby to wipe the ink off the stone). And don't use a lot of pressure; you just want to see where the tool is contacting the edge. Then you will know what your situation is.

The magic marker is key, especially when you're a beginner and especially when you're changing angles. If the file takes all the marker off in a few light passes, you're done. If the ink came off the outer edge of the metal, you have more work to do to increase the angle, so keep filing until no marker is left on the metal. If the marker comes off comes off the inside edge of the metal first, stop filing, get a flatness tester, and see how base-high your skis are now that the p-tex has been rounded on the sides.

And do check for burrs. The burr Atomicman refers to is the metal curled over the side edge after you've beveled the base. It's very thin, but will totally screw you up. If you (carefully) run your finger along the edge you should feel nothing remotely rough or grabby. You don't have to press hard on the diamond file, just run it down the side edge, parallel to the edge.. You'll feel and hear the burr as you run the diamond file along the side edge, and you'll feel it smooth out as you make more passes.

If the skis are base high, it's not necessarily a disaster; my first tuning experience involved a crazy-making tune someone else had done that I was trying to correct, and in doing so the edges got over-beveled. Instead of bringing it straight to a shop I skied them, and although they weren't extremely responsive, I had a lot of fun slipping and sliding, because at least they were consistent, had a sharp, smooth, burr-free edge when I did tip them over, and were well waxed and brushed. Eventually I did bring them in to get the base straightened out, but they were really fun in soft snow even though they were far from perfect.

And don't be shy about getting it done professionally.

And really, buy a flatness tester/true bar, because you're just going to need one and you don't have to spend a fortune to get something that'll do the job. Like Here, or this, or this, or this, or, if you want to buy the last true bar you'll ever need, this.

What videos have you watched? I highly recommend Willi Wiltz's videos (here's one on base beveling), and the Start Haus videos are also great. (Here's Jim's base beveling video). People use slightly different techniques, but the principles are the same: short strokes to start, light pressure (let the file do the work) to take a little off at a time so you can be precise, clean the file or stone and the edge every few strokes, and check your work. But there's nothing like watching a true expert do it, and Jim and Willi are undisputed experts.
post #70 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

I really can't tell anything from the Dropbox pictures, sorry. Get a carpenter's square or metal ruler, anything straight, because the file is really hard to figure out.

From the picture you posted, it looks like you've decreased the base bevel. When you cut into the p-tex with the file, you're filing the metal starting from the side furthest from the edge of the ski. If you were to run a felt tip pen along the edge and then use the file, you'd see the ink staying on the outer part of the edge, and as you kept filing into the base more and more of the ink would come off, until it was all gone and the bevel would be pretty much zero.

I suggest you take a marker to the base edge, and then run something not-very-abrasive along it with your Final Cut. Don't use your alcohol-water mixture heavily because it'll smear the marker (but keep it nearby to wipe the ink off the stone). And don't use a lot of pressure; you just want to see where the tool is contacting the edge. Then you will know what your situation is.

The magic marker is key, especially when you're a beginner and especially when you're changing angles. If the file takes all the marker off in a few light passes, you're done. If the ink came off the outer edge of the metal, you have more work to do to increase the angle, so keep filing until no marker is left on the metal. If the marker comes off comes off the inside edge of the metal first, stop filing, get a flatness tester, and see how base-high your skis are now that the p-tex has been rounded on the sides.

And do check for burrs. The burr Atomicman refers to is the metal curled over the side edge after you've beveled the base. ( This is precisely and exactly backwards , Sorry LB you were doing so well in this post! The burr created on the side edge from filing the base edge will break off as soon you ski on the ski because it sticks out parallel to the base edge. It is the hanging burr that is parallel to the side edge sticking down into the snow that causes havoc, because it is microscopically below the base edge and will not break off when skied but grabs the snow.  Side edge burr will not and would not give you that unpredictable grabby feel This why you use a stone flat against the base edge to remove it! No need to feel for it with your finger. Satndard tuning procedure requires that you do as I have described in my earlier post as the 2nd to final step in the tuning process if you have at all filed or stoned the side edges.) It's very thin, but will totally screw you up. If you (carefully) run your finger along the edge you should feel nothing remotely rough or grabby. You don't have to press hard on the diamond file,  (  "You run it down the base edge flat against the base edge!" **just run it down the side edge, parallel to the edge** This is incorrect!).. You'll feel and hear the burr as you run the diamond file along the side edge, and you'll feel it smooth out as you make more passes.

If the skis are base high, it's not necessarily a disaster; my first tuning experience involved a crazy-making tune someone else had done that I was trying to correct, and in doing so the edges got over-beveled. Instead of bringing it straight to a shop I skied them, and although they weren't extremely responsive, I had a lot of fun slipping and sliding, because at least they were consistent, had a sharp, smooth, burr-free edge when I did tip them over, and were well waxed and brushed. Eventually I did bring them in to get the base straightened out, but they were really fun in soft snow even though they were far from perfect.

And don't be shy about getting it done professionally.

And really, buy a flatness tester/true bar, because you're just going to need one and you don't have to spend a fortune to get something that'll do the job. Like Here, or this, or this, or this, or, if you want to buy the last true bar you'll ever need, this.

What videos have you watched? I highly recommend Willi Wiltz's videos (here's one on base beveling), and the Start Haus videos are also great. (Here's Jim's base beveling video). People use slightly different techniques, but the principles are the same: short strokes to start, light pressure (let the file do the work) to take a little off at a time so you can be precise, clean the file or stone and the edge every few strokes, and check your work. But there's nothing like watching a true expert do it, and Jim and Willi are undisputed experts.

Edited by Atomicman - 8/14/14 at 10:17am
post #71 of 75
I'd consider it a miracle if I was only wrong about one thing in that long rambling post. wink.gif
post #72 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

I'd consider it a miracle if I was only wrong about one thing in that long rambling post. wink.gif

It's okay! 

 

So know ya know! And you can make sure your skis are spot on!:D

post #73 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

I'd consider it a miracle if I was only wrong about one thing in that long rambling post. wink.gif
It's okay! 

So know ya know! And you can make sure your skis are spot on!biggrin.gif
I was just eying them and wondering whether it's too early to start getting them ready for the season...?
post #74 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


I was just eying them and wondering whether it's too early to start getting them ready for the season...?

NEVER TOO EARLY!

post #75 of 75

The drying room at the place we stayed wasn't very dry... Now i've cleaned the rust off by gently rubbing the gummi stone on it which seems to have worked nicely.

 

Just wanted to let you know if you wipe your skis down with a towel you will not get the rust!

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