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PSIA's new Alpine Certification Standards are out - Page 3

post #61 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post

Yeah I see that.  I don't know about you but I observe many skiers in the back seat and if you ask them, most will say they are in balance.    I think a big danger here this that the powers that be are trying to redefine established terms and contexts.   I think of balance as the relationship between mass and force (be it gravitational, linear or circular).  This redefining can only lead to confusion. As a verb, balance is defined as " to keep or put (something) in a steady position so that it does not fall."  If you go out to Merriam Webster they have 9 definitions of balance! 

So if you read #1 below,  it says: CONTROL the relationship of the CENTER OF MASS to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis.   That sounds like an active use of mass not a resultant.  I just see Pandora opening the box. 


LL


I don't really. Skiing is skiing. You're always welcome to bring what you have to the table so long as it makes conceptual sense, is doable/teachable, and improves outcomes. I've yet to meet a good instructor that doesn't have a few of their own thoughts and opinions... I think one could make an argument that balance is still a skill, and I doubt that it would kill ones teaching ambitions.
post #62 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


I don't really. Skiing is skiing. You're always welcome to bring what you have to the table so long as it makes conceptual sense, is doable/teachable, and improves outcomes. I've yet to meet a good instructor that doesn't have a few of their own thoughts and opinions... I think one could make an argument that balance is still a skill, and I doubt that it would kill ones teaching ambitions.

I agree completely, skiing is skiing and I try to welcome other opinions.  So what should we call the 5 points?  Opinions , prescriptions or , as they have labled them, fundamentals.  We cannot say that it does not matter.  BTW I like the 5 points....Just don't think they are irrefutable enough to be called fundamentals. 

post #63 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

 

I don't.  I think the problems are due to inadequate training.  If PSIA did a better job of disseminating information to schools and trainers and ultimately to instructors there would be much less of a problem.  Sure there would be some lousy instructors still, but much less.

 

The focus is on passing the Level II skiing exam before the teaching exam, and it can take years in some cases.  So most instructors after they are given, er pass, their Level 1, spend all their time working on their personal skiing, not learning to teach.

 

PSIA has created this problem.  Training is the key to workers development.  I'm in the training field, I know that as an objective fact.

 

Training is left up to the individual schools, and really left up to the individual instructors to a certain degree.

 

PSIA is not about making better teachers.  Kind of sad.

 

What is it that you think PSIA should be doing?  There are plenty of training opportunities that you can attend during the season.  This can get expensive and free training from your SS has a financial appeal if that is available.  If it's not, I would call that a failing of the employer to develop a quality product.  In my division you can by a clinic pass if you plan on attending a bunch of trainings.  It really brings the cost down.  What any instructor chooses to work on is their responsibility.  You can choose to work on your personal skiing or you can work on getting better at your job.  Sometimes those two things go together.  I have had a few issues with some of the DECLs that I have worked with, but none of them was a bad instructor and all of them, in hind sight, really wanted to help me.  I think that it really is an individuals responsibility to pursue training.  I think that PSIA is about making better teachers even if I don't always like some of their materials, dogma, and methods.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post
 

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more that instructors need to continually strive to improve their product.  I also think that ski schools could do a lot more to provide motivation for them to do so starting with paying them more but more importantly paying for performance.  Good instructors ought to be paid more and more highly credentialed instructors as well.  

 

Mike

 

My school has pay incentives for training, certification levels, and accreditation's.  I'm not getting rich, but I do make a living teaching skiing.  I have a lot certifications and my base pay is getting close to the top of the scale.  Everything is spelled out and it's possible to figure out a way to make the money you want over time.

post #64 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post

I agree completely, skiing is skiing and I try to welcome other opinions.  So what should we call the 5 points?  Opinions , prescriptions or , as they have labled them, fundamentals.  We cannot say that it does not matter.  BTW I like the 5 points....Just don't think they are irrefutable enough to be called fundamentals. 

I think they work fine... Nothing is carved in stone, and there's nothing wrong with asking good questions about it... I'm more a 'wait and think about it' sort. Initially, it seems to provide a nice framework to speak more specifically about 'doing' where as BERPis a great framework for talking about 'seeing'.... I think... smile.gif
post #65 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

 

My school has pay incentives for training, certification levels, and accreditation's.  I'm not getting rich, but I do make a living teaching skiing.  I have a lot certifications and my base pay is getting close to the top of the scale.  Everything is spelled out and it's possible to figure out a way to make the money you want over time.

Some resorts get this, others do not.  I did my Level 1 at Aspen.  It was interesting to see my clinic mates, most of whom were from Aspen, find out that they'd get a $5/hr bump in pay for getting their Level 1!  What did I get?  $.50.  Not that I think a Level 1 cert is worth much.  And my employer will reimburse me for the cost of the clinic next season when I return.

 

Granted, I've only been on the instructing side of the relationship for a very limited amount of time, but I've purchased a lot of instruction at a lot of different resorts with very different orientations.  My professional career was as an economist, and a free market one at that, but it sure seems to me that a business with the margins as high as they are in ski instruction (for the resort) ought to invest more in its product.  And they ought to be more demanding and selective of the instructors they hire.

 

My $.02, which is about what it's worth.

 

Mike

post #66 of 68
Remember, PSIA is a certification body not a training body. Even if they say different. They are there to say you've reached a certain point in your teaching/skiing career. ( the main problem is they also do the training to get you there and set the criteria;but that is a different topic all together). Their training materials and clinics are all developed with this goal in mind, even though they offer other clinics as an aside.
As with any business, it is ultimately up to the ski school to provide the training they think their staff needs, or have a professional development track that people go through to obtain and certify their knowledge( law school, bar exam). Ski instruction does not have that professional development track, although PSIA tries to provide this. So,it is up to the individual and the ski school to seek out and provide the training needed to be successful.
At our particular hill, while PSIA training is provided and encouraged, it is the in house training that is ultimately the most important to the training of our instructors. We train them in the areas we feel most important to our business and their development within that business.
post #67 of 68
Stop arguing about good teachers, good fundamentals, good trainers, good PSIA responseabilty, all valid points, oh and good pay, yah good student outcomes... And goto lessons learned headline post and tell us your great ah ha moments that made you a better skier. We are all skiers, students, teachers trainers and developers of better skiing and teaching. These new fundamentals are just a redevelopment of common core skiing. Students vary in so many ways it's impossible to address the true indent, purpose, imagination, skill, strength, and vision of anyone in a lesson of say 10 new comers. Sure we ask questions and teach from each students stated goals of why they paid to learn from the mountain staff... But my point is..... Great love the discussion. I posted lesson learned!! Because if it worked for us at some point in our career as skiers teachers students or whatever. If must be something we should share with each other. A common tread if you will. I learned early on teaching is about stealing and repeating information from others. Good training comes from good communication and good student outcomes come from a staff that is saying, hey this worked for me and this worked for my students. I posted 4 things that changed my skiing forever. The fundamentals ! That lay within the fundamental listed in the PSIA release. It's my effort to try and gain actual knowledge from your experiences. Your all amazing passionate people. I'm sure you all want to become better skiers. Let's hear how that became you.
Or not.
Thanks for reading.
I'm not asking for teaching progressions. Just the day it happened to you! and what was the trigger movement, words or whatever that made you! A better skier. ????
Oh and to add to this thread... Balance is a skill not a result of whatever. It's a skill. :-) if your in balance from everything else happening..... Your not in balance. Your only in balance if... You can take away another skill, let's say, pressure? And your still in balance. The same thing goes for all BERP skills. You should be able to take any one away Balance edging rotary or pressure and still have the others work. I think that's called a drill ? :-$.
post #68 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

PSIA cannot fix lazy.

PSIA cannot fix stupid.

PSIA cannot fix apathy

PSIA cannot fix indifference

Ski schools need more secret shoppers to find out which instructors need retraining or retirement.

 

I am so glad this point was brought up.  :)  

 

In my 11 years of ski instruction, I always felt that secret shoppers (hint - secret examiners) would bring out the best (and the worst) among ski schools.  I had a long discussion with several folks at our mountain this past season regarding the concept of secret examiners.  The exam pressure is gone.  The instructor is viewed in his/her NATURAL environment.  What an excellent method of analyzing someone's skiing and pedalogical skills, IMO.

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