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Angulation, My package never arrived. - Page 5

post #121 of 142

 This summer I plan on working on my own flexibility, strength, and endurance. Hopefully the extra rom I should be able to get will help take my skiing to a new sucky level :). Areas of focus will be hip joint rom, loosening my lower back muscles, core work, and strengthening my anterior tibialis muscles--and I typically have tight hamstrings so getting those to relax would be useful.

 

 Gotta get in shape so I can hang with Marko!

 

   zenny


Edited by zentune - 5/25/14 at 1:05pm
post #122 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
 

 This summer I plan on working on my own flexibility, strength, and endurance. Hopefully the extra rom I should be able to get will help take my skiing to a new sucky level :). Areas of focus will be hip joint rom, loosening my lower back muscles, core work, and strengthening my anterior tibialis muscles--and I typically have tight hamstrings so getting those to relax would be useful.

 

 Gotta get in shape so I can hang with Marko!

 

   zenny

 

Ha! Hardly bud...  you'd have to wear a couple extra layers to not freeze yer arse off waiting for me. :) 

 

(and I'm on the same summer manifest as yours... just got to get my damned rotator cuff healed. 

post #123 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

To continue on this variant:

Let's pick something else that we can all do. Some better than others but all with some level of success.

Driving a car. I've been driving over 30 years. I'm pretty good at it as I would guess most folks here are. That doesn't mean I can handle NASCAR, the Baja 500 4 wheeling or anything else along those lines. Tell me it's because I don't drive well and I'll take offense to that.

 I didn't get to finish this thought before company came over.  Now that they're gone...

 

Though when it comes to driving, I like most folks understand I don't do it professionally and haven't had specialized training, I drive well and can handle pretty much anything thrown at any "recreational" commuter/driver. 

 

My point with this comment is when we bring this to skiing, most folks that have been skiing for 30 years, don't want to hear that they aren't doing it right.

 

When it comes to skiing, I don't take offense to comments about me not doing things right because I haven't been skiing that long.  I've only been instructing since 2009 and is really when I started training seriously.  I just started skiing a couple years before that.  I know I suck, but each year I do try to suck less or at least suck at a higher level.

 

So, imagine hearing that you don't understand the basics of something you've been doing and enjoying for 30/40/50 years and how that would sit with you.  That is what happens when people hear things like "It's not that you can't ski bumps...." especially if they are hearing it from someone that hasn't been alive as long as they've been skiing.

 

Ken

post #124 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Ha! Hardly bud...  you'd have to wear a couple extra layers to not freeze yer arse off waiting for me. smile.gif  

(and I'm on the same summer manifest as yours... just got to get my damned rotator cuff healed. 

Nah...I'm more into turn quality than speed...slow line fast smile.gif

zenny
post #125 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

 

So, imagine hearing that you don't understand the basics of something you've been doing and enjoying for 30/40/50 years and how that would sit with you.  That is what happens when people hear things like "It's not that you can't ski bumps...." especially if they are hearing it from someone that hasn't been alive as long as they've been skiing.

Ken

Then I'd say that person isn't ready to learn, and that's ok too. Those who know they don't know buy lessons. Others join the ski school and through clinicing/tasks/cert process, come to know their ' level of suck ' intimately. Sometimes it's hard to accept that you don't rock as hard as you thought. Sometimes the message comes from within, sometimes from without, and not always with sugar coating. Any serious student of the glissading arts has been there whether you're on the the race, freestyle, or instruction track. The thing is, the truly 'better' you get, it seems the more open to learning you become... you truly begin to understand what you haven't mastered as you start to see yourself in a more honest light.
post #126 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Then I'd say that person isn't ready to learn, and that's ok too. Those who know they don't know buy lessons. Others join the ski school and through clinicing/tasks/cert process, come to know their ' level of suck ' intimately. Sometimes it's hard to accept that you don't rock as hard as you thought. Sometimes the message comes from within, sometimes from without, and not always with sugar coating. Any serious student of the glissading arts has been there whether you're on the the race, freestyle, or instruction track. The thing is, the truly 'better' you get, it seems the more open to learning you become... you truly begin to understand what you haven't mastered as you start to see yourself in a more honest light.

 

Don't disagree at all.  I'm just trying to talk to what goes through peoples heads.   I've been driving since 1976.  Taking a course in driving or drivers safety, isn't something that I think I need to do, as I would expect most folks that have been skiing since then unless as you stated, they have been enlightened on the value of being a professional student. 

 

Where as with skiing, for most of my skiing (short) career I have been training, attending clinics and being coached.  I can't imagine not doing that.

post #127 of 142

Found another good post by evaino following the links from the Total Skiing tag that TC added to this thread.  Don't want to quote it because it's pretty long.  The bottom line is that she provided a mini fitness test directly related to skiing, complete with video and suggestions for what to do to improve.  For those who don't know what's in Total Skiing, it gives a little idea of how the functional assessments and follow up suggestions work in the book.

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/105289/functional-assessments-for-skiers#post_1364421

post #128 of 142

Quote:

Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

 

So, imagine hearing that you don't understand the basics of something you've been doing and enjoying for 30/40/50 years and how that would sit with you.  That is what happens when people hear things like "It's not that you can't ski bumps...." especially if they are hearing it from someone that hasn't been alive as long as they've been skiing.

Ken

Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Then I'd say that person isn't ready to learn, and that's ok too. Those who know they don't know buy lessons. Others join the ski school and through clinicing/tasks/cert process, come to know their ' level of suck ' intimately. Sometimes it's hard to accept that you don't rock as hard as you thought. Sometimes the message comes from within, sometimes from without, and not always with sugar coating. Any serious student of the glissading arts has been there whether you're on the the race, freestyle, or instruction track. The thing is, the truly 'better' you get, it seems the more open to learning you become... you truly begin to understand what you haven't mastered as you start to see yourself in a more honest light.

 

Good discussion. 

 

The sad fact is that they (the customer) REALLY DON"T UNDERSTAND the basics and have not developed the required skills and understanding of fundamentals to the levels needed for bump skiing.   So how do you address the situation?  In our society of  "quick fixes" I don't see an easy answer.  Clearly you don't insult your customer with flipid sayings and cliches.

 

Stepping back,  I believe instructors do a disservice if they don't take time to mentally educated students on the WHY's of skiing and not just the HOWs.  This includes the fundamentals of motion, the different types of turns and the skills and skill priority needed to execute.  

 

The problem with the term "Physical Education" is that the brain needs to be educated as well.  If students where mentally educated as they physically progressed, there would be less of a "sticker shock" when attempting to address the bumps.  By not doing so,  we have developed skiers that are in the 6th grade when it comes to skiing groomers and are insulted or get disillusioned when confronted with the reality of having to go back to the 3rd grade.  

post #129 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

 

Good discussion. 

 

The sad fact is that they (the customer) REALLY DON"T UNDERSTAND the basics and have not developed the required skills and understanding of fundamentals to the levels needed for bump skiing.   So how do you address the situation?  In our society of  "quick fixes" I don't see an easy answer.  Clearly you don't insult your customer with flipid sayings and cliches.

 

Stepping back,  I believe instructors do a disservice if they don't take time to mentally educated students on the WHY's of skiing and not just the HOWs.  This includes the fundamentals of motion, the different types of turns and the skills and skill priority needed to execute.  

 

The problem with the term "Physical Education" is that the brain needs to be educated as well.  If students where mentally educated as they physically progressed, there would be less of a "sticker shock" when attempting to address the bumps.  By not doing so,  we have developed skiers that are in the 6th grade when it comes to skiing groomers and are insulted or get disillusioned when confronted with the reality of having to go back to the 3rd grade.  

 

I've been thinking a lot about things along these lines this weekend.  I find it baffling that we've been walking the earth so long and still don't understand simple things like; how to eat properly, get along with others, stretch, exercise , etc.  Then on the other side of the spectrum, we figured out how I can carry on a conversation with folks that are interested in the same things as I am all the way around the world at the same time from the comfort of my home.

 

The advantage I have over many skiers, is I'm old enough and (mostly) mature enough to accept I suck and have willingly gone back to elementary school a couple times.  I also haven't been skiing that long and shortly after I started out, I became an instructor (still not sure why they hired me), so I understood early on that the learning for this sport is a life long quest.  Very similar to the martial arts in that sense. The disadvantage I have is by time I get 30 years experience, I'll also be getting cheap season passes for being in the 80+ club.  The latter is why I've put myself on this accelerated learning path.

 

If we did as JESINSTR recommends to educate them along the way in not just what to do but why it works, more than likely when we moved to the bumps, we wouldn't have to backtrack.  Good skiing is good skiing and the physics doesn't change.  How we deal with it might, but the things you learn on the groomers still apply.  I do try to do this but there is only so much you can get a 7 y/o to understand :)

 

Many walks of life have folks that are craftsman/technicians and those that are merely operators.  My daughter recently got her drivers license (May God have mercy on our souls).  She is an operator.  She operates the vehicle well, especially for a new driver, but understands next to nothing on why the car behaves the way it does and only how to make it behave a certain way.  Most skiers are in the same category; operators of the skis.  Some want to become skilled craftsman or artisans (i.e me/us) and some just want to go from point A to point B without getting in an accident.

 

So when folks that have been operators decide they want to raise the bar and become more than an operator on groomers, they might set out to be operators on bumps lets say and therefore, don't need a deeper understanding.  They just need to pick up a few more techniques (let me practice driving in the snow and then I can do it).  Until how the tools work and why they work is understood, they will struggle.  Once that is accomplished no matter where they show up to ski (drive), they will be better prepared and will learn more quickly.

 

Ken

post #130 of 142

Ken,  Excellent...especially the final pp on operators vs craftsmen/techs.   I think this is a great analogy and a great thought for instructors to ponder. 

post #131 of 142
You can lead a horse to water...
post #132 of 142
Anyways, Fred and his physical issues suggests finding a workaround if he can't flex sideways.
What would that workaround look like?
post #133 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

 

Good discussion. 

 

The sad fact is that they (the customer) REALLY DON"T UNDERSTAND the basics and have not developed the required skills and understanding of fundamentals to the levels needed for bump skiing.   So how do you address the situation?  In our society of  "quick fixes" I don't see an easy answer.  Clearly you don't insult your customer with flipid sayings and cliches.

 

Stepping back,  I believe instructors do a disservice if they don't take time to mentally educated students on the WHY's of skiing and not just the HOWs.  This includes the fundamentals of motion, the different types of turns and the skills and skill priority needed to execute.  

 

The problem with the term "Physical Education" is that the brain needs to be educated as well.  If students where mentally educated as they physically progressed, there would be less of a "sticker shock" when attempting to address the bumps.  By not doing so,  we have developed skiers that are in the 6th grade when it comes to skiing groomers and are insulted or get disillusioned when confronted with the reality of having to go back to the 3rd grade.  

 

 

What we're overlooking is the simple fact that many are completely happy with their skiing. It's recreation, not an advocation. Personally, I really don't care if people ski well or not so long as they're not endangering others, or they're paying me to care. What we're talking about in your description is great, but most people really don't care. My 'solution' is simple. I do the best job I can with those that sign up. They get better. Their friends notice. Their friends sign up. 

 

One thing you said about 'disservice'... you're assumption is that instructors don't explain both the how AND the why. Good instructors do this. This is why you ask for an experienced L2 or L3 when paying for a lesson. At our hill, nearly all adult group lessons will be taught by an L2 or L3. And I use 'nearly' as a qualifier. I can't think of any exceptions unless a particular instructor is new to PSIA and coming from a race background, has been coached, can coach, etc... a la someone like zentune, before starting certification this past winter. 

post #134 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Anyways, Fred and his physical issues suggests finding a workaround if he can't flex sideways.
What would that workaround look like?

 

 

 

 

Sorry.  Couldn't help myself :o

post #135 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post
 


I am already on the doorway exercise and it hurts!

 

levy1,

What hurts? 

Does it hurt or is it too much of a stretch?

Is it on both sides? 

How wide is the doorway? 

Are you sure your body is in the right position?

 

I'm only asking because JASP recommended we come up with a different way to address what is going on with the assumption you won't get the flexibility you need to get the angulation you want.  BTW, I'm with Aman with the fact that you're probably -flexible enough and what is really needed are drills to anchor this.  My daughter is hyper-flexible.  She tends to tip too.  She just needs to work on it and do drills that will help her anchor the movement.

 

In the meantime; I have an stretching exercise I do as my hips are a little tight but one is significantly tighter than the other.  Shows up in my turns.  I'm not sure I can correct this because it is also to the side I have scoliosis (just a little bit at the tail bone).
Anyway, sit on the floor with legs bent at the knees and both laying flat on the floor to one side (as if you were riding a horse side saddle).  Keep you upper body upright and lean into the side your feet are on.  Keep your butt cheeks on the floor.  I can do this on the right side fairly well but not when my feet are on the left side.  I used to not be able to do it at all on the left side and barely on the right.  It helps.  I don't feel pain.  I feel tightness.

 

This picture I snagged from Mr. Google.  It isn't a person doing the stretch, but the legs are in the right position.  Both hands need to be off the ground and upper body upright.  The knee in the front should be more to the front than in this picture.

 

post #136 of 142
Thread Starter 
Good stretch thank you
post #137 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
 

 

 

What we're overlooking is the simple fact that many are completely happy with their skiing. It's recreation, not an advocation. Personally, I really don't care if people ski well or not so long as they're not endangering others, or they're paying me to care. What we're talking about in your description is great, but most people really don't care. My 'solution' is simple. I do the best job I can with those that sign up. They get better. Their friends notice. Their friends sign up. 

 

One thing you said about 'disservice'... you're assumption is that instructors don't explain both the how AND the why. Good instructors do this. This is why you ask for an experienced L2 or L3 when paying for a lesson. At our hill, nearly all adult group lessons will be taught by an L2 or L3. And I use 'nearly' as a qualifier. I can't think of any exceptions unless a particular instructor is new to PSIA and coming from a race background, has been coached, can coach, etc... a la someone like zentune, before starting certification this past winter. 

Now, I could have sworn I used the word IF as in "I believe instructors do a disservice if they don't take time to"  Anyway, I am glad that your organization embraces this philosophy.

post #138 of 142
Balancing content is not an easy task. Too much information tends to turn off most folks. A condensed version of why becomes important but boring a student needs to be avoided.
post #139 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

Now, I could have sworn I used the word IF as in "I believe instructors do a disservice if they don't take time to"  Anyway, I am glad that your organization embraces this philosophy.

 

No problem... I think it's useful to ask, "did the instructor tell you 'what', 'why', and 'how'?   I just haven't seen anything anyone's written that suggests that your 'if'  isn't happening, nor do I see it on the hill with experienced instructors.


Edited by markojp - 5/26/14 at 9:39pm
post #140 of 142

More stretching: 

 

http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p1490c3378m2014690

 

Edit: and more:

 

http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p1490c3378m1276260


Edited by Jamt - 5/27/14 at 7:16am
post #141 of 142
Thread Starter 

Perfect stretches for skiing!

post #142 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

More stretching: 

 

http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p1490c3378m2014690

 

Edit: and more:

 

http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p1490c3378m1276260

Good stuff.  Important to understand the differences between static and dynamic stretching.  Definitely don't want to do any stretching without warming up first.  Something I'm sure levy1 knows.

 

What helped me understand stretching was the book The Anatomy of Stretching: your illustrated guide to flexibility and injury rehabilitation.  The diagrams for each stretch highlights which muscle is being stretched in the context of a full body drawing that shows other muscles and/or skeleton in the area of interest.  Never knew there is more than one type of dynamic stretching.

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