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New Technical Thougths and ideas Videos - Page 2

post #31 of 54

@rollo87, just curious if anything in particular that JF says resonates with you and your own personal skiing more so than the rest.

zenny


Edited by zentune - 5/18/14 at 2:47pm
post #32 of 54

"Take a little trip, take a little trip
 Take a little trip and see
 Take a little trip, take a little trip
 Take a little trip with me..." 

post #33 of 54

For zenny...  War. 'Low Rider' lyrics. Cool groove. Not about skiing per say, but a great tune to ski to. :)  Music for the kuuul vid Bob's going to make. ( Ha! )

post #34 of 54

  I know the song, just didn't get the context :)

 

    zenny

post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

JFB repeatedly talks about the stability of the core and the looseness of the lower body. The flopping hand below a solid upper arm. He also mentions moving forward as well as into the direction of the turn and talks about too many folks who dive down the hill too early. The separation you see in his skiing occurs because he allows it rather than forces it. Terrain, snow conditions, speed, his equipment and turn size all contribute to whatever separation occurs.

The bolded..., this should be printed out and stuck to the refrigerator or bathroom mirror of anyone who is seriously trying to improve their skiing.

Form follows function.

 

the usual progression

 

--unconscious incompetence (not yet....)

----conscious incompetence (time to notice one lacks separation)

------conscious competence (time to force separation)

--------unconscious competence (this is the point when separation can become natural because the skier allows it rather than forcing it)

post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

the usual progression

 

--unconscious incompetence (not yet....)

----conscious incompetence (time to notice one lacks separation)

------conscious competence (time to force separation)

--------unconscious competence (this is the point when separation can become natural because the skier allows it rather than forcing it)

 

Is it possible to go straight from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competent?

post #37 of 54

In video #7 JF said that you should not release the turn from its forces too early. And that many do just that. IMO he is dead right. Great advice. Many times people think they are doing the right thing by releasing early and deeply flexing through the transition but in fact it turns their skiing into something very passive and back seated. I think that a deep retraction type turn transition needs to be taught in steps matching the skill level of the skier. And also, you need to let the turn force and the rebound bleed over into the transition to feed the float. Many times people look at WC skiers retract through the transition with a 90deg knee angle and try to do the same. What they fail to do is drop their butt 1 inch from the snow during the shaping phase and therefore they are keeping their butt at the same distance from the snow all the time. This way they loose a lot of momentum. I also often hear the argument that retraction turns are not wearing you out more than vaulting. This is definitely not true. Flexing and extending is wears you out much quicker than vaulting. Another myth busted.

post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

the usual progression

 

--unconscious incompetence (not yet....)

----conscious incompetence (time to notice one lacks separation)

------conscious competence (time to force separation)

--------unconscious competence (this is the point when separation can become natural because the skier allows it rather than forcing it)

 

Is it possible to go straight from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competent?

...probably.  Serendipity happens.  Can't exactly plan for it, nor build a profession on it based on its sudden and unexpected appearance.

post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

In video #7 JF said that you should not release the turn from its forces too early. And that many do just that. IMO he is dead right. Great advice. Many times people think they are doing the right thing by releasing early and deeply flexing through the transition but in fact it turns their skiing into something very passive and back seated. I think that a deep retraction type turn transition needs to be taught in steps matching the skill level of the skier. And also, you need to let the turn force and the rebound bleed over into the transition to feed the float. Many times people look at WC skiers retract through the transition with a 90deg knee angle and try to do the same. What they fail to do is drop their butt 1 inch from the snow during the shaping phase and therefore they are keeping their butt at the same distance from the snow all the time. This way they loose a lot of momentum. I also often hear the argument that retraction turns are not wearing you out more than vaulting. This is definitely not true. Flexing and extending is wears you out much quicker than vaulting. Another myth busted.
IMO vaulting and retraction are not mutually exclusive. A good retraction need to be fed by a vaulting.
post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

IMO vaulting and retraction are not mutually exclusive. A good retraction need to be fed by a vaulting.

Exactly!
post #41 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

IMO vaulting and retraction are not mutually exclusive. A good retraction need to be fed by a vaulting.

Exactly!

Would you two explain this retraction along with vaulting more fully?

post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Would you two explain this retraction along with vaulting more fully?

You cant efficiently retract your legs at transition if your CoM is not accelerated up. Accelerate up: Think a carved turns rebound or getting pushed up by a mogul. Absorbing in such situation used to be called down un weighting. However, its not your mass that you want to down un weight. You want to down unweight a force pushing you up. Usually there is not enough such force so insted you need to compensate by vaulting. At one end you have vaulting at the other retraction. Anything in between works depending on circumstances.
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Would you two explain this retraction along with vaulting more fully?

In a floated transition the CoM must be on its way up at the end of the turn. That "up" comes from vaulting over the inside and/or the outside ski. If there is a lot of energy in the turn you need to retract to control that energy, otherwise you will high-side. This is what JF talks about. Many people retract as soon as they feel the force increase, this is a bad early release since you don't really finish the turn. An early release that starts with a progressive release early but does not finish until the turn is finished is better for recreational skiing and this is what I think JF is trying to explain. Sometimes in racing you need to turn as much as possible in the latter part of the turn in order to set up for the next gate and in this case you release later off the outside leg, with a vary rapid retraction. 

 

Then you also have the camp that bends the legs in transition in order to keep the CoM at a constant level. I cannot really think of any good reason to do that. Maybe if you think it looks stylish

post #44 of 54

I get bouncy short turns.  At the fall line there is a pulse pushing up on your feet/skis.  You release (retract the current outside ski) fast and float as you move your skis to the other side for another pulse.  Short turns.  Like bouncing on a pogo stick leftie-rightie.  Works great on hard snow.  You can even get air.

 

I get non-bouncy short-medium turns.  You release (retract your current outside ski) earlier and progressively to avoid the pulse.  You time the rate of this release so that you even out the force pushing up on your feet/skis.  There will be no float.  This works great for shortish turns in chopped up dense snow.  These can also be done on hard icy snow if you really don't want to lose your grip and re-establish it with each turn.  I know from experience that you can finish these turns so the skis move uphill of your COM before they change edges.  So it's not written in stone that these turns are incomplete.   

 

The force pushing up on your feet/skis (at or just after the fall line) in these "retraction turns" causes the "vaulting" and "accelerating up" you refer to above.  When you two use these terms you are simply talking about your head moving upwards as you change edges, right?  Which is something you can work to avoid altogether, but why bother says Jamt.  There is a spectrum of possibilities between catching air between fall line pulses and keeping your head an even distance from the snow.

 

Comments?  I'm listening and interested.

post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

I get bouncy short turns.  At the fall line there is a pulse pushing up on your feet/skis.  You release (retract the current outside ski) fast and float as you move your skis to the other side for another pulse.  Short turns.  Like bouncing on a pogo stick leftie-rightie.  Works great on hard snow.  You can even get air.

 

I get non-bouncy short-medium turns.  You release (retract your current outside ski) earlier and progressively to avoid the pulse.  You time the rate of this release so that you even out the force pushing up on your feet/skis.  There will be no float.  This works great for shortish turns in chopped up dense snow.  These can also be done on hard icy snow if you really don't want to lose your grip and re-establish it with each turn.  I know from experience that you can finish these turns so the skis move uphill of your COM before they change edges.  So it's not written in stone that these turns are incomplete.   

 

The force pushing up on your feet/skis (at or just after the fall line) in these "retraction turns" causes the "vaulting" and "accelerating up" you refer to above.  When you two use these terms you are simply talking about your head moving upwards as you change edges, right?  Which is something you can work to avoid altogether, but why bother says Jamt.  There is a spectrum of possibilities between catching air between fall line pulses and keeping your head an even distance from the snow.

 

Comments?  I'm listening and interested.

Even in medium and long turns you can get float, it is just that you work the CoM up and down in a much larger range, think Ligety with hip to snow in one moment and then airborne fully extended a bit later. 

 

There is a very good reason why float, or in other words "bouncing your CoM up and down" improves ice grip. I have touched upon that many times times here.

Probably most people have not understood what I meant but perhaps the following example can shed some light:

Say for example that at the fall line you have an edge angle of 60 degree and the turn force to to carved edge locked is 2G. Assuming the CoM is at constant level the weight pushing the skis down into the snow is G*cos(slope angle).

Now if the platform angle of the snow-ski interface is 90 degrees it is easy to realize that this is not possible, the ski will not hold (unless the slope angle is exactly 0 degrees, i.e. flat.). The force pushing the ski outward in the turn is too large in relation to the force pushing it down into the snow. After the fall line it gets even worse because the gravity component points more and more outwards in relation to the turn.

Assume instead that half of the turn is spent in weightless float and half in an upwards acceleration so that the force pushing the ski down into the snow at the fall line is double, i.e. 2*G*cos(slope angle).

Now it is equally easy to realize that unless it is steeper than 60 degrees the ski will hold (cos(60)=0.5)

Thats why I usually say that you shouldn't waste too much weight on your skis when they are flat (some is ok to help control and balance)

post #46 of 54
You have to have the downwardly accelerating CM higher up in the turn so that it will be available to accelerate up later, after the fall line, so that it can aid in grip in an edge-locked, high edge angle turn (an upwards acceleration of the cm helps provide a downward force). But then it becomes necessary in transition to release that force (on the outside ski) in order to move inside the next and begin again.

zenny
post #47 of 54
Jamt and zenny, great postings. LF, i did not understand your short turns without a float. Always as you turn you get cm upwards acceleration followed by unweighting.
post #48 of 54

Tdk, I can release and start a new turn in a way that maintains pretty much equal pressure under my skis through the whole run.  On flat snow, that is.

Or bouncey-bounce my way down.  In the gates I'm not sure which works best, or if either is normally best, having not been trained as a racer when I was a kid.  

post #49 of 54
LF, interesting. On a race track what is faster is probably more correct. Then when you are the fastest in your club you really know you are onto something. However, you could go very far with the wrong technique so what I think is best is tape it on video and compare yourself to wc skiers and see if it looks the same. Or elements there of.

IMO bouncy bounce implies strong turnforces that take you floating through the transition from one turn to annother with your legs doing all the work. Extending into the turn and retracting into transition. Depending on various factors as for example how far offset your turns are you include or leave out any vertical movements of your upper body. Think bouncing on a trampolin.

I think that if you put pressure sensors under your feet you would find out that in both cases there would be a big difference between turn and transition. Q is, where did that "energy" dissapear?
post #50 of 54

You're probably right that there's still a change in the pressure underfoot.  But a skier can minimize that change by sucking up one or two knees just-so, then extending just-so, to level the underfoot pressure out.  It's something done by touch.  How damp or how flexible the skis are may contribute to one's ability to level out that pressure.  That's all I've been talking about.  

post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

You're probably right that there's still a change in the pressure underfoot.  But a skier can minimize that change by sucking up one or two knees just-so, then extending just-so, to level the underfoot pressure out.  It's something done by touch.  How damp or how flexible the skis are may contribute to one's ability to level out that pressure.  That's all I've been talking about.  

 

I hear you. Upper body remains vertically completely stable as you flex and extend with your legs from turn to turn. I think that its a very important thing to know how to do. But the outcome in terms of turn radius and how far your turns are offset changes as you delay that release and get pushed up a bit during edge change.

post #52 of 54

There you go!  We agree.  I knew it.

 

Also, if you flex only your new inside leg at release, while extending the other leg in response to keep it on the snow, you don't stay vertical.  You tip downhill, sideways if facing the trees and frontways if facing downhill.  Instant dive and inclination.

Even this you can do with deliberate timing so that pressure remains somewhat constant.  

Hey, you can even add "foot squirt" if you like so your skis reach waaay out.

post #53 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

I get bouncy short turns.  At the fall line there is a pulse pushing up on your feet/skis.  You release (retract the current outside ski) fast and float as you move your skis to the other side for another pulse.  Short turns.  Like bouncing on a pogo stick leftie-rightie.  Works great on hard snow.  You can even get air.

 

I get non-bouncy short-medium turns.  You release (retract your current outside ski) earlier and progressively to avoid the pulse.  You time the rate of this release so that you even out the force pushing up on your feet/skis.  There will be no float.  This works great for shortish turns in chopped up dense snow.  These can also be done on hard icy snow if you really don't want to lose your grip and re-establish it with each turn.  I know from experience that you can finish these turns so the skis move uphill of your COM before they change edges.  So it's not written in stone that these turns are incomplete.   

 

The force pushing up on your feet/skis (at or just after the fall line) in these "retraction turns" causes the "vaulting" and "accelerating up" you refer to above.  When you two use these terms you are simply talking about your head moving upwards as you change edges, right?  Which is something you can work to avoid altogether, but why bother says Jamt.  There is a spectrum of possibilities between catching air between fall line pulses and keeping your head an even distance from the snow.

 

Comments?  I'm listening and interested.

Even in medium and long turns you can get float, it is just that you work the CoM up and down in a much larger range, think Ligety with hip to snow in one moment and then airborne fully extended a bit later. 

 

There is a very good reason why float, or in other words "bouncing your CoM up and down" improves ice grip. I have touched upon that many times times here.

Probably most people have not understood what I meant but perhaps the following example can shed some light:

Say for example that at the fall line you have an edge angle of 60 degree and the turn force to to carved edge locked is 2G. Assuming the CoM is at constant level the weight pushing the skis down into the snow is G*cos(slope angle).

Now if the platform angle of the snow-ski interface is 90 degrees it is easy to realize that this is not possible, the ski will not hold (unless the slope angle is exactly 0 degrees, i.e. flat.). The force pushing the ski outward in the turn is too large in relation to the force pushing it down into the snow. After the fall line it gets even worse because the gravity component points more and more outwards in relation to the turn.

Assume instead that half of the turn is spent in weightless float and half in an upwards acceleration so that the force pushing the ski down into the snow at the fall line is double, i.e. 2*G*cos(slope angle).

Now it is equally easy to realize that unless it is steeper than 60 degrees the ski will hold (cos(60)=0.5)

Thats why I usually say that you shouldn't waste too much weight on your skis when they are flat (some is ok to help control and balance)

 

I find it fun to experiment with separation, down force, turning force, and quickness of release in the last half of the turn.   Tipping the skis more, but allowing them to diverge more from your CM's path while weighting them just enough to keep them carving cleanly, snapping the transition by releasing very rapidly and playing at where that occurs, absorbing more of the virtual bump and keeping the skis carving uphill past the point of where they would otherwise break loose.

 

Interestingly enough, once you get to the point where you are tipping to significant angles at speed, aborbing/swallowing the virtual bump while making locked in carved turns is a lot like absorbing/swallowing a mogul, even if your swallowing it while making smeared (not locked in carved) short radius turns.  The skill transfers.

post #54 of 54

Just watched the videos and love the "Flow" "bank" "release" videos.  It all sounds very familiar yet a nice new perspective with the bowl analogy vs. the medicine ball.  Great stuff.

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