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End of Season Pointers - Page 4

post #91 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Maybe I will, but answer me this first: How do you tip your inside ski when there is no pressure on it?

 

I don't understand what you are getting at?

post #92 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

I don't understand what you are getting at?

Well this thread is about Slider and I see some signs that he has some mobility and/or alignment problems. If you cannot invert your foot at all inside the boot, or if the alignment is wrong so that you evert your foot when under pressure you will be likely to have an A-frame, at least if you try to knee-angulate.

You imply that you cannot knee-angulate with your foot because the boot is too tight and instead you suggest that knee-angulationg comes from pushing the knee in whatever direction you want to angulate. 

If you have no pressure on the inside ski you cannot push the knee to the inside because then you will either rotate the boot in that direction or create sideloading. 

post #93 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Well this thread is about Slider and I see some signs that he has some mobility and/or alignment problems. If you cannot invert your foot at all inside the boot, or if the alignment is wrong so that you evert your foot when under pressure you will be likely to have an A-frame, at least if you try to knee-angulate.

You imply that you cannot knee-angulate with your foot because the boot is too tight and instead you suggest that knee-angulationg comes from pushing the knee in whatever direction you want to angulate. 

If you have no pressure on the inside ski you cannot push the knee to the inside because then you will either rotate the boot in that direction or create sideloading. 

 

Exactly Jamt - OP shows all the signs of limited range of MOBILITY at his ankle. Yes, also some alignment issues but I'm not a true believer in alignment being the solution to all problems. I think that the ankle plays a more passive role in tipping than other stronger and with wider movement range equipped muscles higher up in the leg and hip region but without proper mobility at the ankle the inside leg cannot be tipped into the turn. This has been discussed before but haven't gotten enough attention.

 

Ankle tipping is also kind of misleading because you cannot tip the foot inside the boot without at the same time bringing your toes in the opposite direction. This is a bit complicated because your ski is edge locked. But by being so, the outcome of you using strong leg muscles to tip your inside leg to the inside of the turn while inverting your foot and pressing your ball off foot and toes in he opposite direction inside the boot at the same time results in desired inside ski tipping. BUT ONLY IF YOR ANKLE HAS THE ROTATIONAL RANGE OF MOTION. If not, FAIL. A-frame.

post #94 of 110

post #95 of 110
C is what you end up with if you don't tip the foot. You state that the movement of the toes in the opposite direction is a problem. Quite the opposite, it is a necessity to avoid c.
post #96 of 110
Exactly Jamt. C is what we don't want if we want higher angles and greater divergence (of the paths)...

zenny
post #97 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I would like to see a demo of ancle tipping inside the boot. Shouldent be too hard, insted of standing in front of a mirror, stand in front of a videocamera.

 

Here you go 

http://www.harbskisystems.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=39&Itemid=354

post #98 of 110

Jamt, might this image help you make your point?

I found it here, from David MacPhail:  http://skimoves.me/page/2/

This is Shiffren, by the way.

 


Edited by LiquidFeet - 5/16/14 at 5:48pm
post #99 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

C is what you end up with if you don't tip the foot. You state that the movement of the toes in the opposite direction is a problem. Quite the opposite, it is a necessity to avoid c.

I dont understand why you get all the cheering and i dont. You are darn right c is what we dont want. Why do you think i made the drawing? By accident?
post #100 of 110
J
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Jamt, might this image help you make your point?
I found it here, from David MacPhail:  http://skimoves.me/page/2/



jamt jamt jamt jamt.... LOL.... what about my point?
Edited by tdk6 - 5/16/14 at 4:32pm
post #101 of 110
Tdk, it's not really clear what your point is. Most here understand what happens when we tip the ankle versus when we turn the foot...

zenny
post #102 of 110

Honestly, tdk6, I'm confused about the discussion as it is progressing.  Seems like Jamt is saying that tipping the knee alone turns the foot out (diverging the tips), but tipping the ankle inside the boot first does the opposite.  Maybe I'm wrong about this. I ran across that image illustrating something about tipping the foot in the boot, so I figured it applied to Jamt's point.

 

Does it illustrate what you are discussing as well?  Are you and Jamt in agreement? 

post #103 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

Ankle tipping is also kind of misleading because you cannot tip the foot inside the boot without at the same time bringing your toes in the opposite direction. This is a bit complicated because your ski is edge locked. But by being so, the outcome of you using strong leg muscles to tip your inside leg to the inside of the turn while inverting your foot and pressing your ball off foot and toes in he opposite direction inside the boot at the same time results in desired inside ski tipping. BUT ONLY IF YOR ANKLE HAS THE ROTATIONAL RANGE OF MOTION. If not, FAIL. A-frame.

 

TDK, when you use the bigger muscles around the femur head to tip the ski you are twisting the skis like steering, but because it is on edge you cannot and thus the ski tips instead. This is illustrated in your pictures b and c. The twisting moment you apply to the skis is stopped by the snow and this causes resistance in the ankle/subtalar joint and in the knee. If you tip instead by using less muscles from the hip region and (you are still using them, just less) help the motion with tipping the feet you will have the same external movement but with no resistance in the joints. The joints are helping each other instead of one (hip) trying to overpower the others (foot and knee).

 

In my opinion if you tip by adding a lot of force from the hip region you are trying too hard to tip the skis. The knee will be too far inside the force vector and this can cause unhealthy sidebending of the knee. I also think that it causes chatter, but I´ll leave that for a future thread as this one is derailed too much already.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Honestly, tdk6, I'm confused about the discussion as it is progressing.  Seems like Jamt is saying that tipping the knee alone turns the foot out (diverging the tips), but tipping the ankle inside the boot first does the opposite.  Maybe I'm wrong about this. I ran across that image illustrating something about tipping the foot in the boot, so I figured it applied to Jamt's point.

 

Does it illustrate what you are discussing as well?  Are you and Jamt in agreement? 

Not the opposite, just keeping the foot pointing naturally forward as we tip.

 

This can be tried standing up. Lift the foot straight up with slightly bent knee and twist the femur left and right. Simultaneously, tip the foot so that it always points straight ahead. 

post #104 of 110
Im on a phone so ill make it brief. My point is and it refers to this thread that a framing for specially grown up male persons can and often be a result of stiffened up joints, muscles and ligaments. In this case arround the ancle. People are often too hasty thinking a framing can simply bee fixed be alignment alone. The real problem actually lies in how your ancle joint is able to give way to the rotational movement when your leg is being tipped. Yes, being tipped. Not causing the tipping. But aiding it. For someone with very flexible joints it can seem the other way arround but even logic says that if your muscles need to react in a fraction of a second they most likely do it simultaniously. In my drawing b and c are the same. The difference is that c has been picked off the snow. When you tip your foot as in b and lift it up in the air as in c your foots natural behavour would be to align itself ti the rotated shin bone. The stronger this tendency is the more likely it is that your ancle joint is stiff. In b the tipping could have been caused eather by tipping at the ankle as some like to think about it or by femour rotation alone as some wc skiers have explained it to me personally. Or as a combination which is how i think of it.

Important to unerstand is that ancle tipping is not only inverting your foot. Its also pointing it inwards in the opposite direction. Inside leg tipping that is. Its easy to test. Im lying on my back in my bed. My feet are poiting towards the ceiling. If i invert my right leg foot as if it was my inside leg my front part of the foot twists left. Use only isolated ankle muscles. Now jam your left foot against your right and resist the twisting movement to mimic an edge locked ski. Note that this limits the tipping motion and transfers some of it up your leg as tipping. Kid of cramped movements. Now start using your leg muscles as well to simultaniously twist your ancle and rotate your femur. Note that its easy and effective. Your foot points towards the ceiling and your leg tips. The size of the tipping is directly dependant on the ancle range of motion.
post #105 of 110
Sounds very similar to what I have been saying all along so I am not sure what the argument is about anymore. You have now answered the question I posed before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Im on a phone so ill make it brief. My point is and it refers to this thread that a framing for specially grown up male persons can and often be a result of stiffened up joints, muscles and ligaments. In this case arround the ancle. People are often too hasty thinking a framing can simply bee fixed be alignment alone. The real problem actually lies in how your ancle joint is able to give way to the rotational movement when your leg is being tipped. Yes, being tipped. Not causing the tipping. But aiding it. For someone with very flexible joints it can seem the other way arround but even logic says that if your muscles need to react in a fraction of a second they most likely do it simultaniously. In my drawing b and c are the same. The difference is that c has been picked off the snow. When you tip your foot as in b and lift it up in the air as in c your foots natural behavour would be to align itself ti the rotated shin bone. The stronger this tendency is the more likely it is that your ancle joint is stiff. In b the tipping could have been caused eather by tipping at the ankle as some like to think about it or by femour rotation alone as some wc skiers have explained it to me personally. Or as a combination which is how i think of it.

Important to unerstand is that ancle tipping is not only inverting your foot. Its also pointing it inwards in the opposite direction. Inside leg tipping that is. Its easy to test. Im lying on my back in my bed. My feet are poiting towards the ceiling. If i invert my right leg foot as if it was my inside leg my front part of the foot twists left. Use only isolated ankle muscles. Now jam your left foot against your right and resist the twisting movement to mimic an edge locked ski. Note that this limits the tipping motion and transfers some of it up your leg as tipping. Kid of cramped movements. Now start using your leg muscles as well to simultaniously twist your ancle and rotate your femur. Note that its easy and effective. Your foot points towards the ceiling and your leg tips. The size of the tipping is directly dependant on the ancle range of motion.

Regarding the alignment, there is a lot you can do to reduce the effects of a stiff ankle.
post #106 of 110
Im no expert on alignment but Im sure much can be done. As I stand as a perfect example of myself. I have simply tried to to poit out how a stiff ancle can produce a framing to the extent that alignment and ankle tipping alone will not do the trick. In this thread for example people have helpfully advised the OP to fix his a framing by algnment by several degres (mm). However, most likely the problem lies in ancle range of motion.
post #107 of 110
I find in 3-d snow or 3-d with a bottom, concentrating on tipping with the lower leg is far more effective. Directing the knees left and right feels more connected to the turn

Maybe it's because there's not enough or inconsistent pressure info coming from the foot. Also, from the diagram, tipping lower leg directs the ski tip in the direction you want to go. Why is this a bad thing in loose snow?
post #108 of 110
Its not.
post #109 of 110
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Honestly, tdk6, I'm confused about the discussion as it is progressing.  Seems like Jamt is saying that tipping the knee alone turns the foot out (diverging the tips), but tipping the ankle inside the boot first does the opposite.  Maybe I'm wrong about this. I ran across that image illustrating something about tipping the foot in the boot, so I figured it applied to Jamt's point.

 

Does it illustrate what you are discussing as well?  Are you and Jamt in agreement? 

Not the opposite, just keeping the foot pointing naturally forward as we tip.

 

This can be tried standing up. Lift the foot straight up with slightly bent knee and twist the femur left and right. Simultaneously, tip the foot so that it always points straight ahead. 

 

I get it.  You've brought this issue up many times here on the forum.  Finally it makes sense to me.  Good info -- thanks for endlessly explaining.

post #110 of 110
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I find in 3-d snow or 3-d with a bottom, concentrating on tipping with the lower leg is far more effective. Directing the knees left and right feels more connected to the turn

Maybe it's because there's not enough or inconsistent pressure info coming from the foot. Also, from the diagram, tipping lower leg directs the ski tip in the direction you want to go. Why is this a bad thing in loose snow?

 

Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Its not.

 

Late this last season I worked on seeing how fast I could roll the new inside knee into the new turn - doing nothing else but rolling that knee over.  Faster faster faster, over farther farther farther.   Maybe I was tipping the foot at the ankle and keeping that new inside ski from diverging, and maybe not; I wasn't concerned about that at the time.  Why should I be?  I'm not racing.  New and odd sensations.  Just playing around.

 

It was ankle-deepish dense soft snow with significant lumps and density changes.  Tog, might this be some version of the loose snow you're talking about???  Seems like C to me, which people are putting down.  Doing C doesn't mean you have to be steering/skidding your skis across the surface of the snow.  You can still be carving/scarving, turning based on the bend in the ski, if the snow is a willing partner. 

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