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Super narrow / low instep foot: Head Raptor Mya 110 vs B5 RD

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

Hi all,

 

Weird problem here. I have a super low volume, narrow foot (measures 92) and a super low instep. Head , boots are the only ones that really lock down my heel as a result. I'm also right on the edge of 24 and 25 mondo sizes. (I wear a 39 in street shoes - women's sizing that is! lol).

 

I've got a Raptor Mya 110 (110 flex, 98 last/1800cc volume) in a 24 and a Raptor B5 RD (also 110 flex, junior quasi race boot, 95 last/1500cc volume) in a 25.

 

The Mya is pretty great except I feel like it could be tighter around the foot, heel, etc. by no means is it bad - my heel moves barely 1 mm if walking around the house - but I'm worried it'll pack out and be too loose. I'm sick of my heel flopping when skiing! And it's a bit short in the toebox, so I have squished toes, and before I switched to really thin socks, I was getting a bit of footbed cramping. The B5 RD is ok but a bit long and my heel moves around more as a result - clearly too big. I could order the B5 in a 24 but it would have to be shipped so was hoping to ask a few of you before I do anything!

 

- Any thoughts on how much the liners in either boot would pack out?

- Do y'all think the B5 in a 24 would be too small since it's 300ccs smaller than the Mya? I assume this would put my heel in place really well but probably would have even less room in the toebox, which would make being squished worse?

 

I'm going to see the bootfitter shortly, but he doesn't actually carry Head so just in case he doesn't know much about the liners etc.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks! :)


Edited by kabutar - 4/25/14 at 4:35pm
post #2 of 16

order the smaller one

 

39 foot in a 24 boot, and wanting more heel lock,   you might want to look at the 23 shell

 

what is the shell fit like on the 24?


FYI:  I'm a 42 shoe and ski a 25 boot,   sometimes a 24.

post #3 of 16
Thread Starter 
Smaller one for sure, but you mean order the 24 shell in the b5? I'm just worried it'll be so low volume it'll be too much esp since my toes are already squished in the 24 mya.

Shell fit in 24 mya is 12 mm behind the heel when toes are at front, say one and a bit fingers. Foot touches inside of shell on both left and right with heel at back so pretty much perfect I think.
post #4 of 16
Thread Starter 

oh forgot to ask yesterday in addition to the above qs... any idea if the instep would be lower in the b5 rd vs the mya rs? and if so by how much?

 

I think I'm getting foot cramps from the shell squeezing my foot sideways in the mya too, not just lengthwise... will have to check with my bootfitter.

post #5 of 16

so far all of your questions can be answered by a boot fitter that has the following boots in stock. forget the volume numbers they have no bearing on a low volume narrow foot with a low instep. your online research is a waste of perfectly good internet bandwidth. my guess is you do not have a shop close to you that offers this option. also based on the time of year, if you live above the equator, you will not find a good selection of these boots until next fall.

 

Head b5

Nordica Dobe WC 100

Lange ZA or ZAJ

Fischer WC 100 Vacuum

Atomic WC 90 or 110

Tecnica 9.3 any flex

Rossi ZA or ZAJ

 

by shell sizing and trying on boots in this category, it will be come clear which is the best starting point before your boot fitter begins the customizing that is normal for low volume boots. low volume instep with a narrow width calls for sizing smaller in length to get the roof of the boot to control the heel/instep of the foot. so to get positive heel hold down the best shell is the shell that is closest to your foot size, and the best liner for heel retention will be a "race" type liner that has firm fitting materials, like a cork /oil mix that you would find in the Nordica, Tecnica, Lange, Rossi, and Atomic. the Head b5, and the Fischer liners are under-clubbed in this class of boots.

 

the idea that there is only one boot that will work for your foot is silly. in any of these boots if there is pressure on the the bony top of your instep, a pocket can be built into the tongue to float or redistribute the pressure. in any of these boots if you have an issue with length they can be ground and stretched at least a full centimeter.

 

this will only work if you can buy the boot from a fitter that can guide you through to a positive conclusion, or if you are trying to buy these boots online, you need to have a boot fitter that can provide the necessary customization.

 

jim

post #6 of 16

sounds like you should be asking your boot fitter most of this?


go lower volume,  you can alwasy make more room if needed, but harder  to get a heel to stay in place.

post #7 of 16
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by starthaus View Post
 

so far all of your questions can be answered by a boot fitter that has the following boots in stock. forget the volume numbers they have no bearing on a low volume narrow foot with a low instep. your online research is a waste of perfectly good internet bandwidth. my guess is you do not have a shop close to you that offers this option. also based on the time of year, if you live above the equator, you will not find a good selection of these boots until next fall.

 

Head b5

Nordica Dobe WC 100

Lange ZA or ZAJ

Fischer WC 100 Vacuum

Atomic WC 90 or 110

Tecnica 9.3 any flex

Rossi ZA or ZAJ

 

by shell sizing and trying on boots in this category, it will be come clear which is the best starting point before your boot fitter begins the customizing that is normal for low volume boots. low volume instep with a narrow width calls for sizing smaller in length to get the roof of the boot to control the heel/instep of the foot. so to get positive heel hold down the best shell is the shell that is closest to your foot size, and the best liner for heel retention will be a "race" type liner that has firm fitting materials, like a cork /oil mix that you would find in the Nordica, Tecnica, Lange, Rossi, and Atomic. the Head b5, and the Fischer liners are under-clubbed in this class of boots.

 

the idea that there is only one boot that will work for your foot is silly. in any of these boots if there is pressure on the the bony top of your instep, a pocket can be built into the tongue to float or redistribute the pressure. in any of these boots if you have an issue with length they can be ground and stretched at least a full centimeter.

 

this will only work if you can buy the boot from a fitter that can guide you through to a positive conclusion, or if you are trying to buy these boots online, you need to have a boot fitter that can provide the necessary customization.

 

jim

 

Thanks for your help :)

 

I've tried most of these brands, including a Lange/Rossi plug boot in a 92 last - still too much space on top of the instep. Ditto the Atomic (Redster?) - and moreover the heel didn't fit into the heel pocket properly. Unfortunately as you guessed - most places around town don't stock the race oriented boots that you mention here.

 

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean by under-clubbed...?

 

Clarification that there isn't too much pressure on the top of the instep - there's not enough, if anything. Hence looking for the most low instep boot I can find - most of these aren't low enough unfortunately. This is why I was thinking the B5 RD would provide more pressure on top of the instep (any thoughts on this specifically?). But I'm also worried it'll be too tight everywhere else.

 

My shell size would be 24, and my toes are cramped in that since my foot is on the long size of 24. Were you suggesting I go to a 23?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion View Post
 

sounds like you should be asking your boot fitter most of this?


go lower volume,  you can alwasy make more room if needed, but harder  to get a heel to stay in place.

 

yes - but he doesn't stock head so may not have info on how the liners would pack out etc.


Edited by kabutar - 4/26/14 at 12:42pm
post #8 of 16

under-clubbed is a golf reference meaning not enough club to get the ball where you want it to go. in the case of a ski boot liner it means weak ability to retain the foot. usually due to a combination of shell shape and the hardness or softness of the liners ankle pocket materials, ie cork/oil vs. hard eva foam, vs. soft eva foam, vs. open cell foam , vs. closed cell foam, etc,etc,etc. and one of the other factors for heel/instep retention is the shape and thickness and material make-up of the tongue. this of course is negotiable because you can exchange tongues, add material like neoprene, or foam injected tongues, etc.

 

once again, with a good boot fitter, you can get the boot to do what needs to be done. this means expanding for more room or contracting for less room.

 

in one sense we are agreeing that getting the boot that is most similar to your foot size and shape is the crux move for any boot fitter to begin a successful fit. no boot fitter can predict exactly how much a liner will compress,  however there are some universal truths about ski boots:

 

1. all liners compress over time

2. if the boot is too big over the instep/ankle/heel there is little to no chance of getting appropriate heel retention

3. boots are easy to make room for length/width/and specific boney protrusions

4. boots are way more difficult to fill up when the foots volume is very low

5. most materials that boot fitters add to decrease volume, compress over time from use.

 

the b5 shell shape is low volume, but so are all of the other boots that i listed in my last post. nirvana is not waiting for you in a box, it can only be achieved with a team effort with a crack jerk boot fitter.

 

tell us where you are and perhaps we could recommend such a jerk, i mean crack jerk.:o

 

jim

 

jim

post #9 of 16
Thread Starter 

Thanks again. I'm just going to hold back on the location b/c I've been through several bootfitters here and I don't want to give a bad impression of anyone :) The update though is that I found one last place I hadn't tried that stocked Nordica. Not the Dobermann though - we tried the La Nina and even though it was too soft flex we found it was very slightly lower through the instep than the Head boot since my foot is basically an L shape from side profile (flat, flat, flat then straight up where the leg is - no rise in the instep).

 

Heel is great in both but other than that slightly looser instep, the Mya was just a bit more solid overall all around than the Nordica, with less gaps on the sides. The foot is compressing sideways at the metatarsals in the Mya already, so it will have to be popped a bit - not sure it's worth going down to a 95 last in the B5 since it's already compressed sideways in the Mya!! It would just require more punching for not much gain in instep hold (from what the fitter said).

 

He's also reluctant to put me into a full on plug boot which both the Dobermann and B5 apparently are? as it would be more miserable on bad days, colder feet. He also said the B5 would be much stiffer than the Mya even though they're both 110 flex due to it being a plug. Though the B5 really doesn't seem like it's a full on plug!

 

Tried the Fischer Trinity Vacuum 110, pressure points everywhere which is probably ok for a performance fit, gap on instep but he said that would be vacuumed down. That's a heck of a lot of $ though lol. So it looks like my best option at this point is to see if the fitter can add a bit into the tongue right over the instep in the Mya to take away that gap...

post #10 of 16

punching or grinding for width is an easy dime a dozen solution, and the most easy to execute for even a bad boot fitter to accomplish.

 

if heel retention and instep fit are your goals, you are talking yourself with the assistance of a boot fitter into another experience just like the last one.

 

let's compromise, don't tell us where you are located, but post a few pictures of your feet with views from the side, the top, and the front.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kabutar View Post
 

Thanks again. I'm just going to hold back on the location b/c I've been through several bootfitters here and I don't want to give a bad impression of anyone :) The update though is that I found one last place I hadn't tried that stocked Nordica. Not the Dobermann though - we tried the La Nina and even though it was too soft flex we found it was very slightly lower through the instep than the Head boot since my foot is basically an L shape from side profile (flat, flat, flat then straight up where the leg is - no rise in the instep). this is the elephant in the room, you need a plug boot with a firm liner/tongue. the la nina is a "pro" last with a less than strong inner boot/tongue

 

Heel is great in both but other than that slightly looser instep, the Mya was just a bit more solid overall all around than the Nordica, with less gaps on the sides. The foot is compressing sideways at the metatarsals in the Mya already, so it will have to be popped a bit - not sure it's worth going down to a 95 last in the B5 since it's already compressed sideways in the Mya!! It would just require more punching for not much gain in instep hold (from what the fitter said).

 

He's also reluctant to put me into a full on plug boot which both the Dobermann and B5 apparently are? as it would be more miserable on bad days, colder feet. He also said the B5 would be much stiffer than the Mya even though they're both 110 flex due to it being a plug. Though the B5 really doesn't seem like it's a full on plug! bummer that he is reluctant. but just for clarity is he going to wear the boot or are you? if you are does that mean he is reluctant to actually address the issue of your foot measurements, or is he reluctant to put in the necessary work to solve your problem? if i was donald trump you know what i would tell your reluctant guy.

 

Tried the Fischer Trinity Vacuum 110, pressure points everywhere which is probably ok for a performance fit, gap on instep but he said that would be vacuumed down. That's a heck of a lot of $ though lol. So it looks like my best option at this point is to see if the fitter can add a bit into the tongue right over the instep in the Mya to take away that gap... you could also wait until you find a shop that stocks all of the boots listed in post #7 and try them on and what you will find is that there is the same variety of ankle hold down as well as forefoot width and toe box shape. the one thing that they will all have in common is a lower roof on top of your foot and the roof goes further back towards the lower leg, hence better heel hold down from the instep/ankle buckles.

jim

post #11 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post
 

punching or grinding for width is an easy dime a dozen solution, and the most easy to execute for even a bad boot fitter to accomplish.

 

if heel retention and instep fit are your goals, you are talking yourself with the assistance of a boot fitter into another experience just like the last one.

 

let's compromise, don't tell us where you are located, but post a few pictures of your feet with views from the side, the top, and the front.

 

jim

 

thanks for all of this. To be clear they were happy to punch / grind, their reluctance was because they thought the comfort level would decrease TOO much to be worth it for not enough performance gain above the instep (cold feet, not worth it for a day of skiing rather than full on racing, etc.). Also my bootfitter looked at the Mya and thought it would be tight enough to murder my foot, but was pleasantly surprised when it didn't.

 

I would clarify that I did try on a Lange plug boot (too high instep) and I don't want to deal with having to put the liner on first then having someone else have to hold the shell apart till I can get it on etc. I can live with giving up a bit of instep hold to avoid that. The B5 isn't at that level, which is why I was considering that but not the Dobermann, which apparently does require that wrestling on unless I'm mistaken. Though I note your point about soft liners in Head.

 

re the boot list:

Head b5 - being shipped in. Noted re soft liner.

Nordica Dobe WC 100 - la nina as above; not bad. Noted re soft liner.

Lange ZA or ZAJ - did not fit (instep gap; too much of a plug boot)

Fischer WC 100 Vacuum - tried Trinity 110; pressure points, and cramp in instep, but not bad. realistically though I can't afford this at the moment.

Atomic WC 90 or 110 - heel did not fit into heel pocket

Tecnica 9.3 any flex - could not find

Rossi ZA or ZAJ - ditto Lange

 

pics below... R/L feet in Brannocks, and pics of my left foot which is the more difficult one. However a caveat: I'm beginning to think I don't have many options other than either Head or Nordica and I don't want to take up your time unnecessarily. So again I really appreciate your help but please don't feel obligated to reply or take any extra trouble etc. :)

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kabutar/2014-04-22141943.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kabutar/2014-04-22142222.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kabutar/2014-04-28173258.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kabutar/2014-04-28173219.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kabutar/2014-04-28173451.jpg

post #12 of 16

thanks for the pictures. they confirm what i have written in the previous posts. 

 

jim

post #13 of 16
Thread Starter 

Ok great - thanks. I'll see what I can do. :) really appreciate the help.

post #14 of 16

I agree with Jim.  You won't find what you are looking for out of the box.  Someone is going to have to do some work.  If your local shops thought you'd be to uncomfortable after their work you should look elsewhere.

 

Do you have access to any shops that sell Zipfit liners.  They will tighten up fit dramatically and not be nearly as prone to packing out as factory liners.  Scott will reintroduce the Garmont designed race boots next season and they are very snug in the heel.  Instep can always be padded with a firm foam such as Nickleplast which is heat moldable and sandable.

 

Lou

post #15 of 16
Thread Starter 

Thanks for all this. I've tried on the 24 in a couple lower volume boots (including the B5 - I did order it in as suggested above) and the instep was better but foot cramps everywhere (width, length, you name it). So either take the larger last (Mya)... or take the smaller last and pop out the sides to make it just like the Mya! Which doesn't seem to make much sense... especially considering the Mya will need some work itself...

 

I'll keep the zipfit in mind! thanks. :)

post #16 of 16
Thread Starter 

Update: Having doodled around my house some more, I realized that when I had the boots on and mimicked the movement of edging (or just snapped into my skis and leaned, as best as possible) I'd lose the outside of the shell i.e. I felt like it just fell away from the outside of my foot, leaving a gap there, even though there really wasn't much gap at all. I know this is really hard not to test on snow :P But taking my socks off and looking at the foot, there wasn't much of an imprint in the area from the outside of the ankle to about midfoot on the outside side of the foot. This was way worse on the right foot but a little present on the left too, so I figure it's only a matter of time before the left packs out to be like the right as well.

 

This also happens on the B5 a little, so I probably really shouldn't even bother with the Mya. Also, I could see myself going down to a 23 shell in Nordica since their BSL is apparently longer - the 24 Head BSL was 183, but Nordica was 189 or 190, so I'll check that out too.

 

Also, I know a bootfitter could add some inserts to fix this outside of foot problem, but it's the end of the season and I can't realistically test, plus the choice of boots here is clearly somewhat lacking. So I'm taking the Myas back for now, and going to hold off till next season - I'm hoping to do some ski traveling, so I should be able to go see a bootfitter that stocks more of the brands/shells Jim mentioned above. If I end up in Alberta or Tahoe (both on my list!) I'll definitely come in and see Jim or Lou if they have the time.

 

By the way, we had been in touch with Head while looking for some of these boots and one of their reps said their reference is shell size 27 - so the Mya is a 98 last in a 27, and the B5 is a 95 in the 27. :hissyfit: Bah I wish things were just standardized! Anyway - I don't know if that's helpful to anyone here but just in case! (Assuming it's true :P)

 

Many thanks again for all the help!

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