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Early rise (tip rocker) SL skis - anybody tried?

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

I was told by our local rep that Völkls SL skis for next year features a tip rocker. A friend of mine running a racing team said Rossignol SL skis had rocker in them already this season. Can anybody give feedback on this issue! Or even better, give feedback if you tried them on a race track or just free skiing.

 

Edit title.

post #2 of 27

Early rice? Well, I usually prefer a breakfast of oatmeal when skiing, although a big bowl of brown rice is a great start before a bike ride.

 

Early RISE, though--that's another thing. This time of year, as the snow usually softens dramatically when the spring sun hits it, it is definitely best to rise early when skiing slalom skis, to take advantage of the firmer frozen snow in the morning. 

 

Um, you mean skis with "early rise" tips--a slightly more gradual upturn that begins just a bit further back from the front of the ski than "traditional"--don't you? Rossignol makes a 170 slalom ski that is pretty much a "normal" 165cm slalom race ski (a little softer) with a slightly extended and more gently curved tip. It is very subtle, but if nothing else, it makes the ski somewhat better as an all-around ski, especially in soft snow--which means it works well later in the day, eliminating the need to rise so early to catch the morning ice. Personally, I'm not sold on their importance or usefulness in most typical racing situations--and not all Rossignol skis are designed that way--but I like the concept for some conditions. I do not think the benefits are what most people claim--"easier entry into the turn" and such nonsense (Rossi calls their rocker "auto turn"--uh huh--there's some marketing hype for you).

 

Enjoy spring, TDK!

 

Best regards,

Bob

post #3 of 27

It's been 2 years that the Rossi 9 sl has a very very subtle tip rocker...

2 guys I know (better skiers than me) who skied the previous version said that you can feel the difference at initiation on very hard pack...

Me? Just love them!

 

I was told that in 2016, Blizzard will stop putting tip rocker on their on-piste performance skis like the G-Power...

post #4 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 

It's been 2 years that the Rossi 9 sl has a very very subtle tip rocker...

2 guys I know (better skiers than me) who skied the previous version said that you can feel the difference at initiation on very hard pack...

Me? Just love them!

 

I was told that in 2016, Blizzard will stop putting tip rocker on their on-piste performance skis like the G-Power...


I haven't tried SL skis with the early rise tips, but I have a lot of time on GS skis with them. I also feel the difference in initiation only on hardpack. The more ice, the better it works in allowing you to adjust your line. However, on soft snow not so much. Modern GS ski really don't like soft snow no matter what, unless you add in some old school, straight ski technique into your turns. What was old is now new again! :D 


Edited by CaptainKirk - 4/25/14 at 7:01pm
post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 

Talked to another Völkl rep yesterday and he said that the WC SL editions are going to be exactly the same next year. No tip rocker. The only difference is the skin and that the skis come with the plates and the uvo pre fitted. However, the shop version of the SL ski, the one with the plastic binding and plate combo and without the plastic claw at the tip are going to feature tip rocker. Maybe I should get a pair of those for next year and fit them with a proper PP and the Comp20.

post #6 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

Talked to another Völkl rep yesterday and he said that the WC SL editions are going to be exactly the same next year. No tip rocker. The only difference is the skin and that the skis come with the plates and the uvo pre fitted. However, the shop version of the SL ski, the one with the plastic binding and plate combo and without the plastic claw at the tip are going to feature tip rocker. Maybe I should get a pair of those for next year and fit them with a proper PP and the Comp20.


I think the consensus for tip rocker on SL skis is that there is no consensus. With GS it is a different story. Most of the race stock GS skis I saw for next year will have the rocker.

post #7 of 27

technically speaking don't all skis have "a little" tip rocker? :duck:

post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

Talked to another Völkl rep yesterday and he said that the WC SL editions are going to be exactly the same next year. No tip rocker. The only difference is the skin and that the skis come with the plates and the uvo pre fitted. However, the shop version of the SL ski, the one with the plastic binding and plate combo and without the plastic claw at the tip are going to feature tip rocker. Maybe I should get a pair of those for next year and fit them with a proper PP and the Comp20.

TDK, I really don't understand why you would even consider this.  You are a more than capable racer, the FIS version is light years ahead of the shop version, it is already set up with the proper plate, why would you not go in this direction.????

 

wrt early rise, my dynastar WC (genuine WC in this case) slaloms from 2011 had it, 2 years before it appeared as standard on the FIS race stock generally available. It worked, none of the tip flap that i hate normally with rocker.  the 2013 Rossi slaloms i had with it also worked well.  I think my blizzard FIS slaloms have a little as well.  

 

ALL the 188/30 GS skis I have tested had some degree of early rise, although it definitely varied across the brands.  None of them had the early rise "tip flap" 

post #9 of 27

I believe that NONE of the FIS Atomic Race Stock skis have early rise tip,

 

DH's and Super G's always had some going back 15 years or more but the Redster FIS GS skis and Slaloms show none. 

 

The retail race boards, Redster non -FIS GS and SL have 10% early rise they call Piste Rocker

post #10 of 27
I agree with ScotsSkier tdk..I don't think you'd be happy on the consumer version in regards to edge grip after having already skied the stocks as you have...

zenny:)
post #11 of 27

It is unknown to me why race skis don't already implement heavy rocker. Imagine this: When the ski is flat, there is less ski touching the ground, leading to less friction and more maneuverability. As you angulate the ski,  more edge will come in contact with the snow and provide more stability.

 

Someone explain a downside of this to me. Yes, I know that skis are a precise art now, but the full camber doesn't make sense to me. One needs camber to throw you into the next turn and for snappy response, but surely not the entire ski...

post #12 of 27
I think if you race, you can bend a ski. You don't need them pre bent. Having been skiing forty years, I really don't "get" the need for rocker unless it's tight trees and you're not going fast. I certainly don't see the need for it on the ultimate groomer, a race course.
post #13 of 27
Robotdna,

As Samson's strength resided in his hair, so a ski's performance resides in its tip. The temptress Delilah has been busy spreading rocker among us of late, stirring up business for ski shops, ski patrol, emergency rooms, and the occasional funeral parlor. Snip. Snip. Snip. Neutered skis for everyone!

Btw, your maneuverability comment suggests that you are under the misguided impression that skiers should turn their skis. It is the skis that turn us.
post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotdna View Post

It is unknown to me why race skis don't already implement heavy rocker. Imagine this: When the ski is flat, there is less ski touching the ground, leading to less friction and more maneuverability. As you angulate the ski,  more edge will come in contact with the snow and provide more stability.

Someone explain a downside of this to me. Yes, I know that skis are a precise art now, but the full camber doesn't make sense to me. One needs camber to throw you into the next turn and for snappy response, but surely not the entire ski...
The longer the ski the faster it goes.
I'll leave at that.
post #15 of 27

Almost never flat or straight running in a GS and certainly not in an SL course. 

 

The entire ski engages with edge angle. 

 

Downhill and Super G skis have had early rise tips for at least 15 years if not more!

 

So no jzamp early rise tip has nothing to do with contributing to a  lack of speed due to less contact area, if that is what you were getting at!

post #16 of 27

Not was I was getting at.

post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp View Post
 

Not was I was getting at.

So do you want to explain , What you WERE getting at?

post #18 of 27
His assumption are wrong. I'm sure you know why the faster you go the longer the ski will be. Hence longer skis are "faster" because you ski faster on them.
post #19 of 27
Thread Starter 

Thanks for all the response guys. Yes, I'm sure the race stock SL skis are the way to go but I'm always in for some experimenting.

 

IMO the reason for early rise on skis is make them and turn quicker and tighter. This is not a problem in SL because you can always manufacture a ski with a tighter turn radius. In GS its not an option since the turn radius minimum is fixed.

 

Yes, why do longer skis run faster? Because they are more stable and we can ski faster on them?

post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

 

Yes, why do longer skis run faster? Because they are more stable and we can ski faster on them?

Yes but also because the more surface you have, the less weight by square inch you have. Your weight is carried by more surface... It also explain why skis with camber should be better at this ( by helping a more even weight distribution)... IMO

post #21 of 27

I agree with Atomicman that when racing the ski is almost never pressured while flat, and if it is it is not in the turns you pivot.

 

The reason for rocker in race skis is because it is a trade-off between tip bend stiffness and torque stiffness. You want soft tips but with torque stiffness. I you have some rocker you can have the tips slightly thicker for more torque resistance and at the same time have a similar bend stiffness at the target edge angle/bend curve.

post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 


Yes, why do longer skis run faster? Because they are more stable and we can ski faster on them?
Yes but also because the more surface you have, the less weight by square inch you have. Your weight is carried by more surface... It also explain why skis with camber should be better at this ( by helping a more even weight distribution)... IMO
Not sure where you going with this.
What do you mean by more even weight distribution?
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp View Post


Not sure where you going with this.
What do you mean by more even weight distribution?

If I take a full rocker ski,flat,on hard snow, my weight will mostly be supported by the middle part of the skis; the tip and tail will be flapping or at least, will not push on the snow.... On the contrary, a full camber ski, when I'm on them, all the lenght of the skis will be pushing in the snow, supporting my weight...the tail and tip will also be supporting a part of my weight...

post #24 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

Robotdna,

As Samson's strength resided in his hair, so a ski's performance resides in its tip. The temptress Delilah has been busy spreading rocker among us of late, stirring up business for ski shops, ski patrol, emergency rooms, and the occasional funeral parlor. Snip. Snip. Snip. Neutered skis for everyone!

Btw, your maneuverability comment suggests that you are under the misguided impression that skiers should turn their skis. It is the skis that turn us.

 

Rocker performs beautifully off-piste. I dislike it on-piste when attempting to grab an edge with it. It's more enjoyable when you are playful with the skis. Don't get me wrong, I love my stock HEAD i.SL to death. It's one of my favorite skis. I was just proposing a thought experiment. I see that it would not be received well, and probably not perform as wanted.

 

I suggest that when a ski is flat and needs to be pivoted in a thrown fashion, yes, there is some human work there. Probably in slalom only. However, I agree that the only motion that should be used to turn a ski is angulation and pressure. Let the ski flex do the work.

 

 

 

The comment about the more weight distributed per square inch makes way more sense, thank you. That was helpful. I get it.

post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotdna View Post
 

 

Rocker performs beautifully off-piste. I dislike it on-piste when attempting to grab an edge with it. It's more enjoyable when you are playful with the skis. Don't get me wrong, I love my stock HEAD i.SL to death. It's one of my favorite skis. I was just proposing a thought experiment. I see that it would not be received well, and probably not perform as wanted.

 

I suggest that when a ski is flat and needs to be pivoted in a thrown fashion, yes, there is some human work there. Probably in slalom only. However, I agree that the only motion that should be used to turn a ski is angulation and pressure. Let the ski flex do the work.

 

 

 

The comment about the more weight distributed per square inch makes way more sense, thank you. That was helpful. I get it.

dont confuse early rise on a race ski with rocker on a free ski or off-piste ski.  All the new 188/30 GS skis I have tested have a degree of early rise and I have been skiing WC slaloms with it for 3 years (see my previous post in this thread)  On the race skis it helps the turn in on the GS ski (perhaps one of the reasons the 188/30s work so well) and in all cases it is unobtrusive .  None of that crappy lack of tip pressure/chatter you get with a rockered/early rise-  or whatever it is being called these days - free ski on harder pack.  Even the much lauded Bonafides display this from my perspective and even though I have got used to it, i still have that slight element of unease pushing hard on the bones that I don't get with an early rise race ski

post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 

If I take a full rocker ski,flat,on hard snow, my weight will mostly be supported by the middle part of the skis; the tip and tail will be flapping or at least, will not push on the snow.... On the contrary, a full camber ski, when I'm on them, all the lenght of the skis will be pushing in the snow, supporting my weight...the tail and tip will also be supporting a part of my weight...

That is not entirely accurate.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by robotdna View Post
 

 

Rocker performs beautifully off-piste. I dislike it on-piste when attempting to grab an edge with it. It's more enjoyable when you are playful with the skis. Don't get me wrong, I love my stock HEAD i.SL to death. It's one of my favorite skis. I was just proposing a thought experiment. I see that it would not be received well, and probably not perform as wanted.

 

I suggest that when a ski is flat and needs to be pivoted in a thrown fashion, yes, there is some human work there. Probably in slalom only. However, I agree that the only motion that should be used to turn a ski is angulation and pressure. Let the ski flex do the work.

 

 

 

The comment about the more weight distributed per square inch makes way more sense, thank you. That was helpful. I get it.

 

Downhill's and Super G's have had some degree of  early rise for years..........at least 15 maybe more!

 

You have completely ignored redirection as a turn tactic................used all the time, mostly in GS.

post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

That is not entirely accurate.  

 

 

Of course it is not entirely accurate, it is skiing! :-)

 

And I'm not planning to write a book about it ( don't have the expertise and the time)... :-)

 

I should have had " proper camber and flex" I think...

 

 

 

Just saying that it is not entirely accurate, is not really accurate btw... I would like some explanation when you have the time... 

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