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The feedback thread

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 

I am awful  at starting threads and maybe this title will be better:)

 

The article below is unrelated to skiing, but I thought delivered a message that would be beneficial with regard to teaching movement and body control.

 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/insidemoves/Why_robots_Fall_Down_49fdf.pdf

 

 

How do we use informative feedback, how to we help improve someone's abiltiy to use informative feedback, and some difference in performative vs exploratory movement.

 

just thought it bridged a gap that seems to surface often in discussions here, there is clear benefit to performative movement, but its enhancement is based on the abilty the use explorative movement.

 

nothing earth chattering, just something to think about

post #2 of 11

Along with taking a look at this paper, I just spent some time reading about postural sway, paradoxical muscle movements, and other stuff unfamiliar to me.  Interesting.

post #3 of 11
Fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing.
post #4 of 11
Thread Starter 

glad to hear it was worth reading, in addition to what I mentioned earlier I thought this,  "...splinting illustrates what happens when someone has two simultaneous and conflicting goals.  It is easy enough to surmise that the habitual pattern of muscle tightness associated with splinting interferes not only with performance, but also exploration. The prolonged nature of such muscle stiffness will lead to habituation, and habituation leads to a dynamical blindspot" would be especially relevant to ski instruction.  

 

how to look into ourselves to uncover the blindspots is the fun part

post #5 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

glad to hear it was worth reading, in addition to what I mentioned earlier I thought this,  "...splinting illustrates what happens when someone has two simultaneous and conflicting goals.  It is easy enough to surmise that the habitual pattern of muscle tightness associated with splinting interferes not only with performance, but also exploration. The prolonged nature of such muscle stiffness will lead to habituation, and habituation leads to a dynamical blindspot" would be especially relevant to ski instruction.  

 

how to look into ourselves to uncover the blindspots is the fun part

...and uncovering those blind spots is essential for getting better at skiing.  

Habituation (a term I don't usually think of when in ski instructor mode) is the enemy.

Metastasis is another. 

post #6 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

glad to hear it was worth reading, in addition to what I mentioned earlier I thought this,  "...splinting illustrates what happens when someone has two simultaneous and conflicting goals.  It is easy enough to surmise that the habitual pattern of muscle tightness associated with splinting interferes not only with performance, but also exploration. The prolonged nature of such muscle stiffness will lead to habituation, and habituation leads to a dynamical blindspot" would be especially relevant to ski instruction.  

 

how to look into ourselves to uncover the blindspots is the fun part

Thanks for starting this thread Chad. It got me interested and I did some searching on the internet and among other things I found this site: http://www.bettermovement.org/

 

It has a lot of interesting articles and I think I understand a bit more where you are coming from in your comments sometimes.

post #7 of 11
Thread Starter 

I was reading an opinion article the other day about the differneces in coaching and therapy, I think the lines between the two are exceptionally thin and both worlds would benefit from looking into each other. I sometimes struggle with even contributing here, but I enjoy the nuances of ski movement theory so lurking is maybe more beneficial to this site and its members.  I have really come to appreciate the power of sensory awareness in my own practice, both personal and professional, it seems almost ridiculous that it is a skill that needs reminding and practice to make more useful as it is always working. Yet, we have a luxury of taking so much for granted as it is such a complex system.  There are a variety of words we could use to describe the process, within another theory, using a different word, there is referent configuration

 

the referent configuration is the system setting the thresholds for muscle activation for movement goals, this is a powerful place to begin to gain sensory appreciation

 

knowing where we begin from is important and being able to gather the most information to make the best adjustment also critical

post #8 of 11
Thread Starter 

getting down to my last handful of days on skis for this spring, thinking about all the new stuff I felt this year while skiing, lots of talk about off season conditioning, 

 

if you are aware of one half of a joint moving while stabilizing the other, can you reverse it at will and stabilize the one moving and mobilize the other? We are well aware the femur moves, can you stabilize it and move just the pelvis, etc

post #9 of 11

Kind of depends on whether you can switch your base of support, or stabilize the other end of the joint in some way.

post #10 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

getting down to my last handful of days on skis for this spring, thinking about all the new stuff I felt this year while skiing, lots of talk about off season conditioning, 

 

if you are aware of one half of a joint moving while stabilizing the other, can you reverse it at will and stabilize the one moving and mobilize the other? We are well aware the femur moves, can you stabilize it and move just the pelvis, etc

Chad, related to this. In some of the articles I found when looking into this, it is stressed that for efficient movement it is important to relax the muscles not in use, i.e. to avoid co-contraction.

However, in some ski literature co-contraction is listed as key to efficient balance. What is your take on that?

Also, how does this relate to joint stabilization?

post #11 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Kind of depends on whether you can switch your base of support, or stabilize the other end of the joint in some way.

thats right LF.  so when in skiing is there a reversal between the mobile bone of a joint and the more stable one, same joint, same bones, those are the parameters

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Chad, related to this. In some of the articles I found when looking into this, it is stressed that for efficient movement it is important to relax the muscles not in use, i.e. to avoid co-contraction.

However, in some ski literature co-contraction is listed as key to efficient balance. What is your take on that?

Also, how does this relate to joint stabilization?

I would say Jamt it isn't so much about no co contraction the reality is that is not possible, the description to avoid it is based on reciprocal inhibition, the neurons that fire an agonist send input to decrease the opposing antagonist, the antagonist can still be firing, but the inhibition will allow for a more efficient use of the agonist.  

 

I don't disagree with the ski literature, once you start downhill the balance system has to go into operation, there will be effort there and a co-contracted state is needed. having the ability to use the feedback allows you to measure the amount of the co contracted effort and adjust, so one is interfering with other minimally

 

Going back to the question I asked LF and to try to tie this together, poor regulation or sensation of the co contraction effort leads to hyper stability, the body can shuffle effort, so to maintain balance and still be able to move dynamically is the art, while they are 2 different systems they loop on each other, need more stability you need more parts available to move, need more parts to move, you need to feel how to balance to co-contracted effort around a joint or joints, flexstability

 

hope that answers the question Jamt.

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