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Please rate my stance in this picture - Page 5

post #121 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 
I prescribe a summer of mountain biking.

This.  I went mountain biking a ton last off season and my skiing improved dramatically - it was noticeable the first day back on skis.  Especially for terrain absorption but in many other ways too.  But you can't just do XC stuff - bigger vertical climbs, especially on technical trails, really kick your ass (or core) into shape.

That IS "xc stuff."
post #122 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Why is it a crutch?  What if it works?

Because there are more effective ways of using hand position to achieve other ends beside simply static hand position. It has to be combined with moving forward along the ski. Whatever drill you use to get them there is fine, but I've just seen way too much butt back and down with static arms holding their tray forward while the instructor says, "great job!".



And I think Levy is well beyond holding a lunch tray.smile.gif
Edited by markojp - 4/22/14 at 4:03am
post #123 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Why is it a crutch?  What if it works?

Because there are more effective ways of using hand position to achieve other ends beside simply static hand position. It has to be combined with moving forward along the ski. Whatever drill you use to get them there is fine, but I've just seen way too much butt back and down with static arms holding their tray forward while the instructor says, "great job!".

 

Let's leave aside for the moment the question of whether the classic "beer tray" is a more effective device than "lunch tray." I'm genuinely curious about this from the other side of the coaching equation. Isn't it possible that the butt back / static arms thing, if it happens, can be a transient part of a useful stepping stone moment, as regards learning what meaningful counter feels like? I know it's true for me - and suspect it's true for most students - that I often think I'm making a movement when really I'm only making it with 20% of the amplitude really required to make it effective. Part of the point of drills like the beer tray is to kind of force the student into an understanding of how big a change is involved. Right? "Oh! That much! Okay. I get it now. Wow." Just because my body has stuff to learn about skiing doesn't mean I'm stupid about how teaching and learning work. I know it's a device and that I'm not literally supposed to ski like a waiter. The lesson I hear is, "let's try this to see if you can get the general feeling." I can only focus on one thing at a time. Once I'm getting the feel for that one thing, you can tweak of other stuff to get things into balance and proportion. Like, "the tray is only 18 inches deep and the near edge is grazing your ribs." More or less. If the beer tray causes the adverse effects you describe, why don't other drills? What's a better way to teach this?

 

I guess one reason this has caught my attention is that I have many ski friends - including people on my beer league team who ostensibly would like to improve their skiing and thus their results - who have exactly this issue, and I suspect that something with the word "beer" in it is likely to get their defenses down and minds open more easily than something that sounds abstract and academic like "picture frame" or whatever.

 

Again, not criticizing your take on this, marko. I'm not an instructor. I just really want to know.

post #124 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post


That IS "xc stuff."

 

I must have my definitions wrong (which is very possible).  I always thought of XC as up down up down without major climbs vs. a ride where you straight up climb 2k+ vertical and then there's a long DH ride after that.

post #125 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post


That IS "xc stuff."

 

I must have my definitions wrong (which is very possible).  I always thought of XC as up down up down without major climbs vs. a ride where you straight up climb 2k+ vertical and then there's a long DH ride after that.

<threadDrift>

 

Well, I guess different people with different habits and sets of experiences in different parts of the country have slightly different takes on this stuff. I'm aware that there are some people who would define XC as riding on non-technical buffed-out double- or single-track without a lot of elevation change, and would call what I do - and what I believe people like Josh and epic do - "all mountain" riding or "trail riding" or something like that. All the riders I know here in Maine - a lot - basically lump riding into two buckets: If you're wearing a full-face and body armor and are taking a lift, you're doing downhill. Everything else is XC. 

 

For the most part we don't have 2k vertical singletrack climbs here. (And this is where Josh chimes in and proceeds to list six of them that he does regularly in the Stowe-Waterbury area and is KOM on all of them. But I stand by my statement as a general rule about the east.) HOWEVER, if you are ever in any doubt the ability of our non-stop procession of steep, rocky, rooty, slippery technical climbs and descents to give you a harder-core workout than you would care to contemplate, stop on by and we will show you the error of your ways. :D

 

 

</threadDrift>

post #126 of 225

Why doesn't levy just do a triathlon holding a lunch tray? :cool

It goes from "in the gym" to you must make 2k vertical non stop climbs. Then ride back down over boulders. Otherwise, it's not a workout.

 

Quote:
Just because my body has stuff to learn about skiing doesn't mean I'm stupid about how teaching and learning work. I know it's a device and that I'm not literally supposed to ski like a waiter. The lesson I hear is, "let's try this to see if you can get the general feeling." I can only focus on one thing at a time. Once I'm getting the feel for that one thing, you can tweak of other stuff to get things into balance and proportion. Like, "the tray is only 18 inches deep and the near edge is grazing your ribs." More or less. If the beer tray causes the adverse effects you describe, why don't other drills? What's a better way to teach this?  
-qcanoe

I guess you're a good candidate for the lunch/beer tray excercise.

 

What's wrong with it? Well people go away and remember that for the rest of their lives that it has to be that way. Same with the picture frame. So they ski always facing down towards the bottom even when it's not appropriate.

It's not necessarily the exercise, it's how it's presented, and how it's interpreted more importantly.

post #127 of 225

Yes, there is this thing that happens to people who take a lesson every now and then.  They hold onto some bit of advice from the past and never let go of it.  The worst one I ever had to deal with was a woman whose previous lesson convinced her she should never pay attention to her feet because that messed up her skiing.  I doubt that's what the instructor intended, but it's what she took away.

post #128 of 225

IMHO, the true trick of great instruction is to have a student focus on one thing that's taught in such a way as to kill two or three other birds. You can share this in the wrap up. Again, in my experience, the tray deal is a one trick pony UNLESS it's taught in a way to achieve something more essential like moving forward along the length of the ski. Not many instructors that use the tray really understand this and end up patching up a blemish of 'form' rather than getting to the heart of 'function'. YMMV.

 

What's interesting is the title of the thread. "Please rate my stance"... the very notion implies a sort of static snapshot, which indeed is what a couple of photos are. Skiing of course is anything but. :)

post #129 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

 

Let's leave aside for the moment the question of whether the classic "beer tray" is a more effective device than "lunch tray." I'm genuinely curious about this from the other side of the coaching equation. Isn't it possible that the butt back / static arms thing, if it happens, can be a transient part of a useful stepping stone moment, as regards learning what meaningful counter feels like? I know it's true for me - and suspect it's true for most students - that I often think I'm making a movement when really I'm only making it with 20% of the amplitude really required to make it effective. Part of the point of drills like the beer tray is to kind of force the student into an understanding of how big a change is involved. Right? "Oh! That much! Okay. I get it now. Wow." Just because my body has stuff to learn about skiing doesn't mean I'm stupid about how teaching and learning work. I know it's a device and that I'm not literally supposed to ski like a waiter. The lesson I hear is, "let's try this to see if you can get the general feeling." I can only focus on one thing at a time. Once I'm getting the feel for that one thing, you can tweak of other stuff to get things into balance and proportion. Like, "the tray is only 18 inches deep and the near edge is grazing your ribs." More or less. If the beer tray causes the adverse effects you describe, why don't other drills? What's a better way to teach this?

 

I guess one reason this has caught my attention is that I have many ski friends - including people on my beer league team who ostensibly would like to improve their skiing and thus their results - who have exactly this issue, and I suspect that something with the word "beer" in it is likely to get their defenses down and minds open more easily than something that sounds abstract and academic like "picture frame" or whatever.

 

Again, not criticizing your take on this, marko. I'm not an instructor. I just really want to know.

 

Q, I think the answer depend largely on what an instructor would consider learning, is it merely application of movement, monkey see monkey do, etc or is it to generate a person's ability to expand their own image, not moving with some other person's thoughts directing their consciousness but being able to use themselves.  I agree with Mark in the sense that any directive is poorly applied if it does not generate interest for the student, drills are creation of constraints in how we move, the constraint is created to lead to an increase in the sensation and feedback from various parts of the body depending on the drill, once the sensory report is expanded then its back to skiing out of a drill "form" and trying to make the connection in how we use our body.

 

I think more and more, maybe it is cultural, people are convinced they can't change themselves, they pay for someone else to fill their heads with pre-thought thoughts, it why they latch onto seemingly strange advice or create a strange constructs of advice, the reality is most want nothing to do with feeling, they want to look "right" ASAP, it has little to do with personal development and more with external image creation

post #130 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

<threadDrift>

 

Well, I guess different people with different habits and sets of experiences in different parts of the country have slightly different takes on this stuff. I'm aware that there are some people who would define XC as riding on non-technical buffed-out double- or single-track without a lot of elevation change, and would call what I do - and what I believe people like Josh and epic do - "all mountain" riding or "trail riding" or something like that. All the riders I know here in Maine - a lot - basically lump riding into two buckets: If you're wearing a full-face and body armor and are taking a lift, you're doing downhill. Everything else is XC. 

 

For the most part we don't have 2k vertical singletrack climbs here. (And this is where Josh chimes in and proceeds to list six of them that he does regularly in the Stowe-Waterbury area and is KOM on all of them. But I stand by my statement as a general rule about the east.) HOWEVER, if you are ever in any doubt the ability of our non-stop procession of steep, rocky, rooty, slippery technical climbs and descents to give you a harder-core workout than you would care to contemplate, stop on by and we will show you the error of your ways. :D

 

I actually wanted to go MTB when I was in Maine last summer to work off some of those lobster rolls but the weather was too nice to pull me away from the beach.  We've got rocks out here too.  ;-)

 

post #131 of 225
Thread Starter 

Those look exactly like the trails I was on when I broke my leg on my dirt bike. I probably should have been on a mountain bike!

post #132 of 225

This is just a drill, just a drill, if it were an actual emergency............................................

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by levy1 View Post

Here is my right turn.

Again I was trying to throw a little snow into the camera. Both pictures are photo shoots from Telluride in January.

 

Levy 1, take a look at the tip of your outside pole any of the pictures you have posted. The inside tip is dragging on the snow but where is the outside tip? Imagine what you would have to do with your upper body to be able to drag both tips on the snow. I am NOT suggesting you should ski this way, dragging your tips, but use this as a drill on blue terrain, focus on keeping both tips op the snow. I think that will help level things out?

post #133 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
 

 

Levy 1, take a look at the tip of your outside pole any of the pictures you have posted. The inside tip is dragging on the snow but where is the outside tip? Imagine what you would have to do with your upper body to be able to drag both tips on the snow. I am NOT suggesting you should ski this way, dragging your tips, but use this as a drill on blue terrain, focus on keeping both tips op the snow. I think that will help level things out?

Ooooooh good one!  

 

I also think that a wider stance will help with the whole body position.  I know I mentioned it earlier in this thread as well as in his boot alignment thread, and I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I think it can make a difference and hope it doesn't get glossed over. 

post #134 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

This.  I went mountain biking a ton last off season and my skiing improved dramatically - it was noticeable the first day back on skis.  Especially for terrain absorption but in many other ways too.  But you can't just do XC stuff - bigger vertical climbs, especially on technical trails, really kick your ass (or core) into shape.

Completely agree. What can also be lost in MTB discussions is how complementary it is in keeping your brain wired to downhill tactics. I noticed a huge difference in going ski to bike to ski once I started serious mountain biking. Day one on skis and you aren't trying to resort your brain.

In talk about fear of the fall line, with a bike on single track you have little choice, and you do wire your brain to those tactics of fall line route selection. The legs and core are killer of course.

Also highly recommend yoga. If something as simple as tree pose is difficult, using yoga to gain comfort in single leg balance poses can be of great benefit as well as freeing up pelvic, hip, and other restrictions. Keep in mind I am working on the same things you (the OP) are, and I don't like repetitive gym work much...
post #135 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
....

Q, I think the answer depend largely on what an instructor would consider learning, is it merely application of movement, monkey see monkey do, etc or is it to generate a person's ability to expand their own image, not moving with some other person's thoughts directing their consciousness but being able to use themselves.  I agree with Mark in the sense that any directive is poorly applied if it does not generate interest for the student, drills are creation of constraints in how we move, the constraint is created to lead to an increase in the sensation and feedback from various parts of the body depending on the drill, once the sensory report is expanded then its back to skiing out of a drill "form" and trying to make the connection in how we use our body.

 

I think more and more, maybe it is cultural, people are convinced they can't change themselves, they pay for someone else to fill their heads with pre-thought thoughts, it why they latch onto seemingly strange advice or create a strange constructs of advice, the reality is most want nothing to do with feeling, they want to look "right" ASAP, it has little to do with personal development and more with external image creation

Chad, with the red stuff above, I am wondering if maybe you have had bad experiences with ski instructors yourself.  Is this the case?

Or, with the blue in mind, I am wondering if you you have had frustrating interactions with clients who want you to take full responsibility for making them look better.  Am I anywhere close to right on either one of these?

post #136 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
 

 

Levy 1, take a look at the tip of your outside pole any of the pictures you have posted. The inside tip is dragging on the snow but where is the outside tip? Imagine what you would have to do with your upper body to be able to drag both tips on the snow. I am NOT suggesting you should ski this way, dragging your tips, but use this as a drill on blue terrain, focus on keeping both tips op the snow. I think that will help level things out?

 

... and much more appropriate than holding a tray for levy. :)

post #137 of 225

Well, I do use a tray sometimes with never evers but i prefer two mugs of hot chocolate, chasing a gorilla to give it a hug............ next time I am on the snow I am gonna try @epic  's clown pants and see how they fit.

post #138 of 225

Really, how many times do you see someone skiing and think, "Someone told that person to 'hold a tray' to keep his/her hands up" ?

 

Sadly, that becomes a static position.  Skiing is more of a flow with the mountain. 

post #139 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
 

Well, I do use a tray sometimes with never evers but i prefer two mugs of hot chocolate, chasing a gorilla to give it a hug............ next time I am on the snow I am gonna try @epic  's clown pants and see how they fit.

 

 

... keeping them ahead of your toes so as not to burn them if you spill and an equal distance to the surface of the snow. :) 

post #140 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Chad, with the red stuff above, I am wondering if maybe you have had bad experiences with ski instructors yourself.  Is this the case?

Or, with the blue in mind, I am wondering if you you have had frustrating interactions with clients who want you to take full responsibility for making them look better.  Am I anywhere close to right on either one of these?

LF, never had a ski lesson, so no, no bad experiences there, lots of coaching in my life though, I was fortunate to have many good ones, 2 great ones, and 2 awful ones.  With regard to my own frustrations, sure, but now I have seen a new opportunity with such people, realizing it was more me than them was a huge revelation.  I have worked with some instructors on issues in their ski movement, breaking the idea that form was paramount to comfort was a great adventure. I didn't write that to disparage anyone, teaching is empowering someone else. hopefully. hope that answers the question, 

post #141 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post

 

Levy 1, take a look at the tip of your outside pole any of the pictures you have posted. The inside tip is dragging on the snow but where is the outside tip? Imagine what you would have to do with your upper body to be able to drag both tips on the snow. I am NOT suggesting you should ski this way, dragging your tips, but use this as a drill on blue terrain, focus on keeping both tips op the snow. I think that will help level things out?

... and much more appropriate than holding a tray for levy. smile.gif
Don't worry about anything getting glossed over I am listening to every word being posted
post #142 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
 

Really, how many times do you see someone skiing and think, "Someone told that person to 'hold a tray' to keep his/her hands up" ?

 

Sadly, that becomes a static position.  Skiing is more of a flow with the mountain. 

Most people I see skiing barely keep their hands above their waist.  They aren't flexing, they lean against the turn and twist their body to make the turn.  A few people are actually pole planting and using counterbalanced but most ski lazy.    From the images posted I think he needs to work on separating his lower body from his upper.  Maybe he is too advanced for that drill but its a drill used for that specific reason.

post #143 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by voghan View Post
 
 

Most people I see skiing barely keep their hands above their waist.  They aren't flexing, they lean against the turn and twist their body to make the turn.  A few people are actually pole planting and using counterbalanced but most ski lazy.    From the images posted I think he needs to work on separating his lower body from his upper.  Maybe he is too advanced for that drill but its a drill used for that specific reason.

At Snowbird right? Forgot to include heel pushing.

post #144 of 225

SL gates will get your hands up. Cause after a few gates in your face.

The skiers that do have their hands leading,well some of them have Chicken Wings.

If you can't see your hands your doing it wrong.

post #145 of 225
Thread Starter 
I know what a chicken wing means in Golf what is it in skiing
post #146 of 225

Elbows out away from the body. Instead of in.

Yes

No

post #147 of 225

I thought that was "scarecrow arms."

post #148 of 225
What do u call this?

kandahar-2011-slalom-1.jpg

Or Mikaela in this shot at Sochi?

article-2564807-1BB66FB900000578-236_634x406.jpg
Dailymail.uk
post #149 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post

Really, how many times do you see someone skiing and think, "Someone told that person to 'hold a tray' to keep his/her hands up" ?

Sadly, that becomes a static position.  Skiing is more of a flow with the mountain. 


I agree with your second paragraph, obviously. And I see that you've gotten a lot of "thumbs up" with this post. I do see this from time to time. For that matter I may BE this from time to time. Maybe things are different where others live. But personally, for every time I see what Tog is calling "Frankenstein arms," I see about ten people doing the old over-rotating, inside-hand-behind-the-back number and think to myself, "Someone please tell them to hold the f-ing tray!"

post #150 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

What do u call this?

kandahar-2011-slalom-1.jpg

Or Mikaela in this shot at Sochi?

article-2564807-1BB66FB900000578-236_634x406.jpg
Dailymail.uk

Racer arms?

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