I'll take a look, thanks NB!
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Steamboat vs Winter Park ? - Page 3
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Gunnerbob - I wrote up a tour of WP in TCC's thread. It's a "blue tour", but works you around the mountain in discovery mode. It was somewhere in the middle, I don't have the heart to find it, but you might like that one pasted in this thread.
Maybe if I have a few beers I'll get the courage to go mining for it myself
I took a look at your posts in the thread and came up with a few that look like they're close.
Here's part of the search
Remember this was for TCC's intermediate trip, but it is generally easy to see most of the adjacent options from this tour.
1) Take the shuttle to or park at Jane base. Admire the six pack lift 50 feet from the ticket window that will take you to the top of Mary Jane in 7 minutes;
2) Drop into the Jane Shop and say hi. Take a look at available rentals, like the Soul7, if you get a big day. Come back later and buy some No Pain No Jane stuff;
3) Ride the Super Gauge. Take a look at the steep trees and bump runs as you go up. You won't be skiing any of that;
4) At the top, head skier's left and look around. It is going to be a good day. Continue to under the Sunnyside lift. Straight ahead look at Wlidwood Glades. These are the gentle glades with low commitment you are looking for. Stay out if them unless you are proficient in blue bumps;
5) Take Roundhouse or Bluebell (or Bluebell to Edelweiss) down to the base of the Sunnyside and Panoramic lifts. These are fairly short blue runs, but if there was fresh you may have short mild bumps stretches so don't go maching off any ridges where you can't see ahead;
6) At the base of the two lifts, look past Pano to the South and you will see Parry's Peak trail. Note if it is groomed or not or check the grooming report;
7) Ride Sunnyside back up. It is a fixed lift, enjoy the ride;
8) Head back to Panoramic. If you have your legs under you, take Pano, another high speed six pack, to the top of Parsenn Bowl. If not, lap Sunnyside again. On Pano, note the glade runs to your right. This is all blue or blue diamond terrain. Stay out if the blue diamond for now;
9) At the top of Pano you are at 12,060 feet. Take a selfie. Post it to this thread. To your right is Village Way where you can bail to green terrain along the top of the bowl, or drop down into the bowl. To your left is access to Parry's Peak along the resort boundary, which is a more gentle descent until the last part, which is a steepish blue, and a moderate bump run if not groomed in awhile. Under the lift is access to cut trails through the trees like Forget Me Not. These are not steep as you have come down the bowl on open groomed terrain, but they are not wide. If you want to ski trees on your trip, start here or wind around the flat part of Parry's Peak. Either way you can see it without skiing it, and the bowl descent will give you a feel for pitch;
10) If that was awesome, lap it. Those are long runs that will get your legs ready for lunch. If too much too soon, go back up, take a better selfie, and bail down Village Way to Switchyard (green). Ski down to the High Lonesome lift and enjoy some green at the top of the mountain. Never crowded, some easy trees, settle the nerves;
11) Lunch. Go into The Sunspot. Enjoy the views.
12) Head skier's right from the Sunspot. From March Hare to Chesire Cat is increasingly steep, all relatively short down to Olympia lift. If crowded (it will be) head past Olympia to Pioneer Lift. This is never heavily skied. Head skier's right off the lift and come down Sundance, which may be blue bumped, and see run's dropping off to your left. They go steepest to gentlest as you proceed, and the runout is long from the steepest runs, but they are good pitch without too much commitment. Stay on Sundance and bear right to Buckaroo and be rewarded with the best open moderate blue on the mountain. You might want to lap that one;
13) When tired of Pioneer, look up at a Eagle Wind. Black trees for next time. Now head skier's left off of the lift and take Gunbarrel back to High Lonesome. Olympia should be clearing out, so try some of the steeper Alice in Wonderland trails. Chesire Cat is blue diamond, but only because the entry is steep. Unless bumped, it's just a blue;
14) At the top of Olympia, to skier's left is the blue access to Jane Trail. This sees a lot less grooming than the WP blues. If you are enjoying what you have seen so far, take Jane back to the Super Gauge. If you are fried, head to the WP base for a bus. You'll get a lot more vert here as pitch decreases and can also veer off to Arrowhead, the top of which is accessible by Pony Express when running;
15) Lap off of Super Gauge if your legs need it and then hit Pepperoni's for a $3 slice and a Mary Jane Amber Ale. Or two;
16) Phew. You've just seen about 1,500 acres and skied all over the mountain. See anything you want to ski tomorrow?
Just to comment on this.
I've been to SB two years in a row now. (I have skied one day at WP. )
The first time we stayed close to the base. This year we stayed downtown at Howelson place. We much preferred staying in town.
Staying close to the base, we took a shuttle to the mountain everyday. We took a shuttle whenever we went down town.
Staying in town, we took a bus to the mountain every day. Just walked to wherever we wanted to eat at night or in the morning. We actually spent much less time on busses staying in town. I much prefer a 20 minute ride twice a day vs relying on. Shuttle for pretty much everything. Not sure why more people don't do it that way. When I booked directly with steamboat, the reservations guy (they are excellent btw) said just not many people stay down town, and that comparable accommodations on the mountain would have been twice as much.
I liked WP and actually considered it this year, but I find SB has more to offer (off the hill) and is more convenient for my family.
@WC68 what type of accommodation did you stay in downtown? We're looking for a condo, likely 1 or 2 bedroom depending if a couple friends of mine meet up with us for a few days or not. We probably wouldn't be going out to eat too much, we'd be cooking our own meals in the condo for the most part.
We will have a vehicle, but I read somewhere that it's about $25 to park at SS. Can anyone confirm? For that kind of money, I'd rather take the shuttle.
Also, I did a quick search on VRBO for condos in town, it seems there are a bunch on the "outskirts" (and I use that term loosely because of the small town size). Would the shuttle cover those areas, or would we have to stay somewhere very close to downtown to take advantage of the shuttle route to the slopes?
It's right on Main Street, and right by the bus stop. If you plan on mostly cooking in the condo, then it's probably not as important where you stay. I'm not sure about parking prices. One of the BEST things about staying at this property is that they have their on private locker room at the base(including boot dryers), so we took our gear to the base the day we got there and never took it off the mountain until our last day. That was huge for us.
You'd have to look at the steamboat bus map to see where the town bus goes.
There obviously aren't nearly as many rentals downtown as on the mountain, but they aren't in super high demand it sounds like. I don't think we'd stay anywhere else now. I looked at vrbo but actually booked thru the resort as I got a returning guest discount. Lodging is searchable by location on steamboats website. I've found their online booking to be great, in regards to building the package you want, and adding everything you might want, from airfare to lessons.
NayBreak, I followed your guide while looking at the Trail map. SWEET! My kids may want to start off lapping some groomers the first day though (we'd be there for 3-5 days most likely), so would you recommend Zephyr and Eskimo chairs, then off to Olympia? Sounds like your plan would be a fantastic second day tour.
Next question to those in the know: If I get the chance to experience some trademarked Champagne Powder at SS and non-trademarked normal powder at WP, recommendations where to rent powder skis? My Rossi E98s will be ok for "normal" conditions but I would probably like to rent/demo some sticks better suited to anything above boot top and possibly trees.
Jane Shop for demos or the WP base shop across from Starbucks. If you stay in town, there is a Christy Sports, which is a nice off-base resource generally if you need ski gear/supplies.
Yep, those are your frontside WP chairs, plus Prospector, which allows for some nice runs off a relatively short lift. Keep in mind that on typical day these are where you'll find the most crowds, but you'll figure that out pretty quickly. If you start early the kids can lap on the frontside before the crack-of-noon crowd arrives, and then you can spread out.
Jane Shop for demos or the WP base shop across from Starbucks. If you stay in town, there is a Christy Sports, which is a nice off-base resource generally if you need ski gear/supplies.
Most chairs on the Winter Park side serve up quality intermediate groomers. High Lonesome being the only real exception there (quality low-beginner slopes). If it was me, I'd just go exploring and move away from crowds- you will find quality groom all over. Also, don't discount Panorama- they usually groom a few paths down the bowl that are good intermediate cruisers.
Take a spin up Looking Glass chair during your trip. It is an old center-pole Riblet, and currently the oldest operating chairlift in Colorado, from 1965. Its days are numbered. Note the running tally of the year's "bullwheel riders" at the upper terminal and do not be one yourself.
Eagle Wind and Challenger are two main chairs where that is really not the case, and many who love Jane might say "but that's the real mountain". So there you go for some runs splitting up the group for the advanced set.
I am a long time Taos skier who has ventured northward. I know Colorado and Utah resorts ... somewhat. Worked one year at Beaver Creek, 10 at Snowbird/Alta, a few at Crystal. An Instructor.
I chose Winter Park for the same reasons as yourself. It is a hub from which you can venture outward and explore.The Intrawest Corp pass is fantastic. I wish it included Loveland and Arapaho Basin. It very well could. Those places are like mom and pop resorts that have excellent of the beaten track gullies and steeps and cute lunch spots for hanging out.
As for specifics:
The dates for your arrival are in a peak snow period. Remember, WP, Copper, and Crested Butte are all really high. Snow quality will be great.
Steamboat ... the town, is kinda nice. The resort and much around it has been mercilessly condo-ized. This happened many years ago when less attention was devoted to aesthetics. So a portion of the vicinity has all the charm of Les Menuires (known as the armpit of the Alps). However, you can certainly find a cheap place to stay there. The Steamboat, Granby, Fraser, Craig area is the closest thing we have in the US to a genuine altiplano. I would, personally, base out of Fraser, only because it is very convenient. Steamboat has fantastic tree skiing and the mountain seems to be a true snow magnet. In this respect Winter Park is a close second. With regard to flat stretches that strand boarders, you will find them at both the 'boat and WP. What I love about the two is the varied ecological zones that you will pass through. The aspens down low. The subalpine fir and scrub pine way high up. The weather has been wet this summer on the whole. Growth has been verdant. Moisture attracts more moisture. It should be a good season.
With this Intrawest pass you also get days at Copper, I think. This is a good hill if you get it on a weekday. It's prone to crowding at peak periods (WP as well on occasion). And, don't overlook Crested Butte. I think you get a few days there. The town itself is an exquisite piece of period art. The mountain is a treasure for advanced skiers. The lifts were put in bassackwards, but because of this, the steep powder shots remain treasures. It takes a bunch of lift rides to access them. The drive from Fraser to Gunnison (also an absolutely fantastic town) is magnificent. It is well worth considering this place.
If you base out of WP, it is also likely that you never will go anywhere else. The mountain is truly on a grand scale. There's a lot of terrain to ski. That is why I now call the place home. As for lift lines, There's almost always no line on the shorter lifts on Mary Jane. WP is best capable of handling a weekend crowd.
As for altitude acclimation, ski efficiently and there will be fewer problems. It might be worthwhile to work with lessons. Think of an instructor is a guide as well as a technician - he or she can take you to places where you will not be overtaxed by the combination of conditions, steepness, and altitude. If there are varying abilities within the family, or if you have several boarders and several skiers, split up in the morning with the proper lesson group and then get back together in the afternoon and perhaps compare notes on the various approaches that instructors took. This may be getting into too much of an expense. One method that I have seen often is that mom and dad, after all the driving and sorting out of equipment, etc. actually want to sit down and have a cup of coffee in the AM and rest - then take a couple of runs. Then, in the afternoon they debrief the kids about what they learned and apply it to their own skiing. An instructor should also be able to advise you on how to avoid any possible bottlenecks on the mountain and how to avoid them (liftlines, crowded trails ... etc.). Common issues that visitors don't always consider include "white outs", the daily grooming report, and high wind. All of these factors may change skier behavior and result in a bottleneck.
On altitude training - It may sound strange, but I work a lot with swimming as a prep for skiing comfortably above 10,000 ft. (partly because of past injuries as well). Also it is because I am a lifeguardI/swim instructor as well as ski instructor and I surf a lot. Condition your body to work with less air. If you can swim the length of a 25 meter pool underwater without a breath, you will not notice the altitude change whatsoever. If you can swim more than half the distance, you will only be slightly affected.
Hope this info is helpful
This is a revival of a thread from last spring, so I don't know if Gunner is still with us.
You've gotten some excellent advice, and more than I would have thought of in one go.
Steamboat is a "real" town, although heavily biased to servicing tourists. It actually has a ranching history. WP and Fraser are much more limited. The flip side is that the views from Steamboat include a lot of flattish rolling ranch land, while WP has the Continental Divide right in your face.
Steamboat has much more ski in-ski out accommodation that actually works. The only true ski in-ski out at WP is Iron Horse (unless more has been added) and the run from Iron Horse to the WP base is very flat. Still, it saves you from driving and parking. If you're cooking in the condo and have a family, it seems to me like ski in-ski out would have some real advantages.
The only decent free parking at WP is not at WP, it's at MJ. Mostly, parking is not particularly convenient at either area, but that's what happens when you try to get a lot of people hauling lots of equipment to a common destination. There's only so much room. The stupid aerial tram thing servicing some of the parking at WP is kind of a joke, since you still have to walk through most of Intrawest's "village" after getting off of it. My own drill, when I was there, was to stay in WP (I owned a condo at Snowblaze) and catch a ride in to the WP base with a friend or take the bus. It's a short bus ride with no walk to the bus from Snowblaze, and the bus delivers you much closer than you can park. Beware of Fraser. The bus rides are long, and many condos are entirely too far from the bus stop.
Anyway, living at Snowblaze, I never drove to the ski area. My truck stayed in covered parking until I left for home.
WP is known for excellent groomers, although busy days can be a bit crazy, with long lines at Zephyr, Eskimo and Prospector, with the associated groomers heavily populated by skiers only marginally in control. Pioneer never has a line, but it has a long, flat run-out, unless they've re-graded it. Some of the bump runs on the Park side are quite pleasant, not particularly steep, and often have less traffic than similar MJ runs, since MJ has the bump reputation.
MJ is bumps, of course. As for groomers, I would avoid Sleeper. It is often scraped hard and smooth and tends to be populated by skiers who don't ski anywhere near as well as they think they do, which makes them dangerous.
There is plenty of tree skiing in a variety of areas, with a variety of pitches. By some measures, pine beetle kill has improved the tree skiing because it's been necessary to cut out the dead trees to reduce the fuel load for fires. However, that has caused increased traffic on lines that formerly only saw extremely skilled skiers.
The WP/MJ area is large, yes, but no larger than many other Colorado/Utah/PNW destination areas. Whistler/Blackcomb is on a grand scale. Nevertheless, WP/MJ will keep you occupied for a week, if you choose.
Steamboat sometimes has better snow than WP/MJ, sometimes not. Steamboat does a better job of marketing their snow. I have, however, skied Steamboat in February when the temperature reached 17 degrees C (63 F), and it was not exactly champagne powder.
The aspen tree skiing at Steamboat has nice spacing. There is no aspen tree skiing at WP/MJ. It's too high.
Steamboat has some interesting steep chutes. Follow the trail map carefully, and you'll find them.
I agree with those who suggest it might be good to start at the Steamboat elevation. The accommodations are 1,000 to 1,500 or even 2,000 feet lower than the accommodations in WP/Fraser. Flatlanders can find sleeping at altitude to be pretty brutal, and trying to function at 9,000 feet after your first night of, um, "sleep" can be ugly. If you turn out to be sensitive to altitude, there might not be much you can do about it. Even trained athletes sometimes have problems, despite excellent aerobic fitness.
I've probably gone on long enough.
I am indeed still here! Some great info in those last two posts, thanks a bunch!
-We are now flying out of Buffalo. Got a killer deal on flights so couldn't pass it up. We're just gonna scoot across the border instead.....flying out of Toronto is robbery by comparison. Crazy pricing.
-Steamboat is first destination, and we now have a condo booked pretty much slopeside. Convenience with 2 kids in tow is worth the extra bit of $$ for us.
-We're not terribly concerned about real vs pretend towns or quasi-villages. We tend to leave the slopes, cook dinner, hit the hot tub/pool, and call it a night relatively early (particularly for the kids). The odd dinner out or cruising some shops is fine, but not a prerequisite for us. As a family, it's more about the skiing experience for us, and not really the particulars of various menus, pubs, shops, etc.
-We have the Intrawest Passport, so SB and WP are the only western resorts included for us in the package. It also includes our home hill in Ontario (Blue Mountain) as well as Tremblant, Stratton, and Snowshoe, so that's why we're not really venturing elsewhere in CO. Besides, we figure a week each at SB and WP should be plenty. It's ALOT more than my kids have ever seen or done in one shot, so they'll be ecstatic no matter what. Biggest they've done before is 4-day stretches each at Stratton and Sugarbush. My 7 year old son was showing some of the older kids how to get after it on a few black diamonds, he's pretty fearless. He scares his mom but I'm pretty proud of him lol.
-"Icy" groomers are not a problem for us. We're used to true East Coast ice. Western "ice" is what I call "packed powder" lol. But thanks for the heads up on the gapers running amok.
-We're gonna start off SB with some lower angle aspens/runs that have been suggested to us, then work our way from there. My wife is a bit timid but the kids are eager. At WP we're looking forward to more alpine-esque experiences, and working our butts off in some bumps. I'm thinking of signing up for a one-day mogul clinic at WP to help improve my skills, I certainly could use it.
-Turns out we will have a vehicle at WP, so where we stay is pretty open. We're still looking at options for Fraser vs WP. We have looked at Iron Horse. Is the Cabrio an option from there? The Cabrio wouldn't bother us, and convenience does sorta matter to us. However, my kids are a bit older now and we have a very important rule in our household regarding getting to the lifts: "Everyone is responsible for their own gear, no exceptions!". I'm already the family pack mule, and I'm tapped out. If my kids wanna hit the slopes, they gotta huck themselves AND their stuff. No workie, no play! They gotta earn it, plain and simple. Call me old fashioned that way lol.
-We will be skiing SB and WP exclusively midweek, so I suspect crowds shouldn't be much of a problem? We also carefully planned the trip to avoid American holidays, including President's Day/week and Spring Break.
-Temperatures won't bother us. My wife and I have been out in -50C windchill, kids have done -25C no problem. We're Canucks lol. Also been out in freezing rain, and non-freezing rain as well. Warmer spring-ish temps would be a bit new to them, but hey, it's skiing---you gotta roll with the weather, right?!
Thanks again for the info and advice! I'll definitely be stopping by to check in, some great resources and help from all of you. Much appreciated.
The eye rolling at Sleeper is well founded, not because it is supposedly icy. Sleeper is basically a top to bottom run at near the same pitch as some of the long bump runs, which more or less means that it is too steep to hold any grooming but still shows up as a groomed run. So it gets a lot of push, slide, and stand traffic that scrapes some areas while piling others without creating any real bump terrain based on skier flow. Ski Jane Trail sans crowds in the afternoon or Arrowhead instead.
The soup cans leave from the free parking lot only to deposit you at the pay parking lot some distance from the lifts, not worth the effort. The base lodging isn't ski out purely in the sense of walking across the main village walkway to the lift, but you can be talking a couple hundred feet or so. Certainly manageable .
Here's the thing about WP. The best way to ski it is from Mary Jane and avoid Alice in Wonderland until mess clears around 2. MJ has a six pack that takes you right to the top. From WP that will cost you at least two lifts and some traversing. No parking fee at MJ. You are on the right side of Berthoud Pass. So staying in Fraser and driving to MJ is super easy and you get way better base logistics if you'd rather stay in a rental house in exchange for a 10 min drive.
You just need to keep in mind that the entire crew needs to be able to ski Jane Trail in potentially off-piste type conditions if it is snowing (just going on the wife-a-bit-timid comment, that could mean anything, but Jane with variable skier traffic on a snow day is for all intents and purposes a black diamond trail), or put up with the endless and not terribly friendly bailout that is Corona Way accessed by one of the Sunnyside trails. Or take the bus back over from WP base.
Anyway, I'd look into MJ as your base. You get a very different vibe and it is such a great park to top of the mountain setup. On a weekday staying local, you could leave Fraser and be up top of the Super Gauge in 35 mins. Ski down to your car and head home.
I get parking like this on weekdays coming from south of Denver.
You will save more than an hour of drive time and definitely avoid a lot more I-70 traffic going to Winter Park. That being said, they are very different mountains with very different ski cultures and both equally fun to ski.
@Wallee: I'm hoping to do a trip report when we're back (possibly even during our trip, if time/motivation allows), which won't be until second week of March. Not sure if that fits with your timeframe. I'd love to hit your area (Breck, Vail, A-Basin, Keystone) but it's not in the cards for us this year. Maybe we can trade stories?
@NayBreak: Thanks for the tips. I certainly don't mind a little drive in from Fraser, assuming a good deal on a condo. If slopeside isn't too much extra $$$ for a 1 bedroom, then we'll go that route. I'm fine either way. As for parking, we can use the MJ base and work it from there, thanks! The way my wife and kids are progressing, I don't see it as a problem. They're looking to up their game, so a challenge will do them some good. We will likely work our way around the mountain though, I think WP midweek might be ok. We have 5 or 6 days, after all, enough time to see a decent range of what the mountain has to offer.
As for Sleeper........ok, I hear ya. We get some of that around here where people are in over their head on the bump runs and end up sideslipping down. And then it gets truly ICY. Not so fun. We're not looking for gnar points and such, we're looking for some fun, a few stashes if we're lucky, maybe a few pow days if the stars align, and just having a great overall experience. Unlike TwoChordCool (remember THAT thread?!), our expectations are far more realistic, and we're totally expecting to roll with it LOL. I'm also of the opinion that sometimes you gotta just make your own fun. Any day on skis is a great day, in my mind. And we try to show that to our kids as well.
Sheesh, February can't get here fast enough!!
At WP there is a lot of relatively new lodging. I'd ignore ski in/out and pick one if the new places if you are keeping it simple. It is all in one small place in the village with a Starbucks, a some decent low frills eats, etc.
Really? Sleeper top to bottom by choice? Wow, that's gnar!
I've avoided Sleeper for decades. Not sure if I've ever skied it top to bottom... occasionally from the Railbender on ramp, but only above that on a really big pow day.
The only Colorado run that I think may have more consistently "icy" conditions is the aptly named Tourist Trap at Vail. Well... there is Eldora too
Ok, so here is a WP oddity I found tonight...
Apparently they have a disassembled lift that has been hanging out since at least 2007 (possibly earlier but images get too fuzzy to tell).
Any idea what lift this was and if they actually intend to do anything with it? (Other than leave it lying around for a decade).
If you look at Crystal Mt. and Taos, you will see abandoned lifts. At Crystal they actually bought a whole gondola setup and the Forest Service then did an about face and the whole plan went up in smoke. The gondolas can still be seen from the satellite. Crystal Mountain is the queen of lift junkyards. It's soo soggy there that the abandoned ones get overgrown and almost disappear in the vegetation.
Actually I'm happy to live with it and do ski it top to bottom a few times each year. First run on a firm morning...slice up the cord while the not so early risers get their boots on. In the afternoon it's sometimes a fun show from the C lot =)
This one time, at bump camp...... we were told that the first few runs would be drills on Sleeper and why didn't we just ski it top to bottom once making large radius turns. I set off from the front of the pack and stopped at the bottom a dozen turns later. Looking uphill for my mates I realized that large radius meant something entirely different to that crowd.
- Steamboat vs Winter Park ?
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