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"Lazy" right hand? - Page 4

post #91 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post\
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Yeah pretty good. Except....I'm bothered by the machine gunners. I mean what riot shield will stop a 50 cal? None.

 

You clearly don't play enough Call of Duty.

True.

I think with the PaintTech Learning Systemtm it would truly expand the concept of "Student Centered Instruction". The student now becomes the Target of Learningtm. Just can't get better than that.

Notice how it's not a "Teaching" system, but a "Learning System". It starts right when they put the Tyvek suit on. Once the student is in the sights, the Learning begins.

post #92 of 112

No problem.Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, z1.1.0. ||B2

post #93 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Zenny, it happened three weeks ago.  To answer jasp's questions, it was the downhill ski tip that stuffed itself into the snow unexpectedly.
I fell downhill at 2:00, landing full throttle on downhill shoulder.  I was going somewhat slowly, but landed hard. 

Not traversing would have been the preferred avoidance strategy, as I now know.  Otherwise, there's nothing I could have done short of avoiding the run
- which would have been no fun at all.

Yes, I try to avoid traversing, and yes I was, momentarily, traversing.  The run was on a classic, narrow, turny New England bump trail with a
double fall line and bare icy rocks intermittently distributed down the middle.  This was spring snow.  I'm not good enough to ski a smooth continuous line
down that thing even in spring snow.  Yet.

Oh well.

Sorry to hear this, LF mad.gif

I hope you heal quickly!
post #94 of 112

Thanks, cgeib.  

post #95 of 112

  Here's to a speedy recovery LF! :)

 

    zenny

post #96 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

 

I'm game. Have guns paintball will travel. Get a suit and a shield and I'll be happy to shoot the #$^% out of you.

 

(edit - added the word paintball)

 

 

hehe former pro paint baller vs a newbie. I am on your team!!! 

post #97 of 112

Here's a good bump monster tale:  We were skiing Jay Peak at the very end of the season a few years ago.  We were heading down a bumped up connector trail.  So much snow had melted that there was bare ground  between the moguls.  We were negotiating a thin strip of snow barely 2 feet wide on skiers left.  My buddy Paul was ahead of me.  I watched him slide off the strip and drop down into a trough.  He tried to turn, and ended up wedging BOTH skis UNDER a mogul.  He then came to an abrupt halt and yard sailed out of both skis.  Ah, the indignity of it all!!

 

He was unhurt,so we had a very good laugh at his expense, particularly since he is the best skier in our group.  (Hey, what are friends for?) 

post #98 of 112
machine gun fire as you crawl through a muddy field. Hmm, where have I done that before? Why would I do it again?
post #99 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

 

 

hehe former pro paint baller vs a newbie. I am on your team!!! 

:D

post #100 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfdog View Post
 

Here's a good bump monster tale:  We were skiing Jay Peak at the very end of the season a few years ago.  We were heading down a bumped up connector trail.  So much snow had melted that there was bare ground  between the moguls.  We were negotiating a thin strip of snow barely 2 feet wide on skiers left.  My buddy Paul was ahead of me.  I watched him slide off the strip and drop down into a trough.  He tried to turn, and ended up wedging BOTH skis UNDER a mogul.  He then came to an abrupt halt and yard sailed out of both skis.  Ah, the indignity of it all!!

 

He was unhurt,so we had a very good laugh at his expense, particularly since he is the best skier in our group.  (Hey, what are friends for?) 

 

He probably got covered in mud too. Ah, spring skiing....

post #101 of 112
slider, from what I can see, your not standing up and forward enough. Go back to easier terrain and practise bringing your hip's forward, "present your pelvis" was one of the terms that worked for me.

I'm no expert in teaching but that works for me.
post #102 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post

 

How do I bridge the gap between the other two videos and steep bump skiing?  

 

 

hmm....kinda of late and then it went off topic.

 

two things, rom and the second maybe is commitment to the dh ski which may be related to some balance issues.

 

I def agree, the rom is limited, imo you have that front pressure on the tongues so much that you have nothing left to manage on that end. Sometimes having it more cuff neutral then loading the tongues allows you to bite into the snow a lot more effectively. Could be too much ramp angle or too much forward lean at the boot. My cue has been from Lemaster, if you can make a full squat with your boots on a flat surface, then the boot has enuf lean, I also use cabrio three piece boot so when I press onto the frontside of the bump, the ankles will flex some more. 

 

In terms of balance, I can't say enuf of the Si Boards, the thing is great in terms of balance exercise for 360 degrees, fore/aft & lateral. And it give me fluid hips which comes in handy with irregular bumps. Just in everyday movement, I can see remarkable improvement. 

 

I have some more ideas on other dryland exercises for that lazy hand and how that can be incorporated with absorption and extension if you're still interested.  

post #103 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Agreed. The whole tunnel, room ceiling just never did it for me. I associate ceilings with head height. What do you do when you go into a low ceilinged room? Duck. I never use it.

But Trefitr is the subject. What do you think about it Trefitr?

I think I get the point of the tunnel analogy.  It makes sense as long as it comes with the understanding that getting low needs to happen below the waist.  I'm thinking that if you get good at managing the up and down (flexing and extending) strictly below the waist, it will create a really quiet upper body.  

post #104 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
 

 

hmm....kinda of late and then it went off topic.

 

two things, rom and the second maybe is commitment to the dh ski which may be related to some balance issues.

 

I def agree, the rom is limited, imo you have that front pressure on the tongues so much that you have nothing left to manage on that end. Sometimes having it more cuff neutral then loading the tongues allows you to bite into the snow a lot more effectively. Could be too much ramp angle or too much forward lean at the boot. My cue has been from Lemaster, if you can make a full squat with your boots on a flat surface, then the boot has enuf lean, I also use cabrio three piece boot so when I press onto the frontside of the bump, the ankles will flex some more. 

 

In terms of balance, I can't say enuf of the Si Boards, the thing is great in terms of balance exercise for 360 degrees, fore/aft & lateral. And it give me fluid hips which comes in handy with irregular bumps. Just in everyday movement, I can see remarkable improvement. 

 

I have some more ideas on other dryland exercises for that lazy hand and how that can be incorporated with absorption and extension if you're still interested.  

Better late than never.  I think ROM is a big part of it.  I'm even realizing that it is a bit of an issue in less steep bumps.  I know that when I feel I'm picking up speed, I either need to throw my skis sideways and slam into the next bump (not a very good option), or I'll really try to absorb the next bump as much as possible to get back under control.  When I go for the absorption, I feel it taxing my legs.  When I get to steeper terrain, I don't even really think of it as an option.  I've been relying on skiing myself into shape, but its just not cutting it anymore.  

 

I have never tried the Si Board but when i was younger, I built a balance baord out of a piece of pressure treated 2x6 and a piece of pvc pipe, and I've been thinking something along those lines would help.   

 

I'd love to hear your suggestions for dryland exercises.  I keep telling myself that this year, I'm going to get in shape before the season.  Maybe if I have some new exercises to try out, I'll be motivated to do it.  

post #105 of 112
Thread Starter 

Since the topic of ROM came up, I figured I'd post this video.  Here I am on a more moderate slope in the bumps.  Since it was suggested that I need to work on my ROM, I started to notice that even in this video, which I think is pretty good bump skiing, my ROM is somewhat limited.  Its better than in the video on the steeps, but there is certainly still plenty of room for improvement.  I'm realizing that I need to strengthen my legs so they can handle my weight at full absorption.  When I was younger and in much better shape, I can remember almost hitting my chin on my knees.  That doesn't happen anymore.  When I do fully absorb, I can feel the benefits, but my legs just don't let me do it as much as I want.  

 

 

 

post #106 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post
 

I have never tried the Si Board but when i was younger, I built a balance baord out of a piece of pressure treated 2x6 and a piece of pvc pipe, and I've been thinking something along those lines would help.   

 

I tried something like that; the pvc pipe, its good for lateral balance but does nothing for fore/aft balance. IMO, having the fore/aft balance is important for skiing taller. One of the problems I see in the steep bump vid is you're not skiing tall enuf when you start the turns, esp near the bottom of the run. That is one thing that limits the rom. The other may be the forward lean of the boots, it appears to place your hips to far back which limits how deep you can absorb. 

 

If you want to try making your own balance board, SI board has a creator kit.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post

 

I'd love to hear your suggestions for dryland exercises.  I keep telling myself that this year, I'm going to get in shape before the season.  Maybe if I have some new exercises to try out, I'll be motivated to do it.  

 

 

For the dryland exercise, you have to bear with me for an explanation; here's a long vid of dale begg smith where it has segments of him taking it a notch down on training runs. Notice he weight shifts, pole plants during the absorption, the pole touches the ground at the crest bump. That's essentially the timing. btw, his coach is an interesting character but thats another story. 

 

 

 

 

When you get old, you start losing rom on everything! Legs are no exception, you have to work on it to prevent losing that rom. One dryland exercise is to mimick the absorption sequence, I do full squats on a wobble or rocker board, letting it rock side to side by shifting the weight, see the rocker/wobble vid below, time marker starting at 1:40. It's ok to let the sides of the board hit the ground since its about timing and leg strength. So the sequence is shift weight onto one leg while squatting and plant down with the hand on the weighted side. Free poling hand is pulled slightly to the body. Stand up, shift on to the other leg and repeat. You may have to shuffle the unwieghted leg close to the center of board to make it tilt. The purpose of the rocker or wobble board is to reinforce that weight shift and mimick the slope of the terrain.

 

I have thought about getting a weight vest to add more resistance while doing this exercise but I opted for more cardio work and got a bike stand so that I can ride stationary at nite since thats when I get free time. In addition, it helps during the ski season to drive out the acid build up after skiing bumps the day before. 

 

 

 

 

hope that helps.

 

 


Edited by jack97 - 4/17/14 at 6:58pm
post #107 of 112

Actually TREEFITER, the entire body need to participate in the flexing and extending and that includes the upper body. The idea is to keep your head traveling along a path parallel to the overall slope. Just like the ceiling of the tunnel would represent. There seems to be a misunderstanding about how the entire body would have to move to absorb especially beyond the RoM available in just the legs. Not to mention dropping the hips below the knees, even without much load is pretty risky to your ACL's. Someone mentioned the Vertical Range Test and if you investigate it further you would see a tuck being part of that and a tuck involves the shoulders and arms moving forward to mitigate the overall stance falling aft when we flex that deeply.

 

Perhaps tactics need to be discussed a little more and especially the idea of not taking on the big impact of a line too directly into the next mogul crest. It is a function of the same staccato edge set and RPO release and projecting the core too directly down the hill. Rounder turns where you finish your turns more and project your core towards the apex of the next turn instead of the top of the next mogul is the key. Eventually you will return to zipper line turns if you wish but with the significant change of not slamming the edges into the next mogul after the big rotary pivot move.

 

As far as the hands, well disciplined hands are a hallmark of all good skiers for a reason. Same goes for a good pole grip where the pinky and ring finger are used as much if not more than the first two fingers. I still remember a comment from a past mentor of mine (Serge Couttet) who scolded me for extending my pinkies and flicking my poles rather than planting it vertically and snapping my wrist. The PG version is that is it was too effeminate and it suggested I was not moving the shoulder and body far enough into the turn for the pole to be planted vertically. Years later Katy Fry shared  the same idea (without the derogatory comment) with our training groups and she mentioned how her mentor changed her pole plant as part of her demo team training. Considering her tenure on that team it was worth paying attention when she shared one of the things the team selectors looked for at the team try outs. According to her, swinging the arm forward and following it into the turn was something many did back in the day but it was replaced by keeping the hand forward and using an ulnar deviation of the wrist, then to complete the pole plant all you need to do is pronate the hand. "Never show the back of your hand to the bottom of the hill" was part of that advice.

 

As far as core tension and functional upper body tension, well the strong pole grip tends to quiet down the arms and prevents the dropping hand but if the shoulder drops aft and down, or if the pelvis rotates into the turn the whole system breaks down and excessive rotary is the usual outcome. Then again WC stars reaching to block a gate can resemble this shoulder position but if you look lower the rest of their body is usually spot on. Not always though since recoveries are a big part of racing that fast. Anyways some tension quiets the arms and shoulders, too much makes them rigid and they get bounced around rather easily. It's a Goldilocks thing to find that just right zone but imagine carrying a long rather heavy pole. Too little grip and arm tension and you drop it, Too much tension and it swings around uncontrollably. The core by comparison is held with a lot more tension, just like when doing perturbation drills. A favorite of mine is the reciprocal pairs pushing on each other's shoulder. At first letting the shoulder gives way to the partner's hand pushing on it. That is pretty relaxed. Then the shoulder is held in place by resisiting the hand pushing on it. That's pretty strongly engaged. The later is closer to the amount of core tension we should carry but the ironic part of that is we really can't consciously engage the core muscles like we can the superficial abdominals. I've found the core takes care of that better if we do some perturbation training in our daily work outs.

post #108 of 112

jasp, what's the pole plant move? When you say pronate the wrist, does that mean say with the knuckles vertical, you rotate it to palm down?

 

Lot's of good stuff here. The lower angle bump run looks much better.

I'll just give you one thing. Whatever pitch, get your legs to work as one unit. Still balanced on and edging with the outside ski, but two legs act together. Do it on the non bump groomed in short turns as practice.

 

Here's an image for you:

 

http://youtu.be/yIhw0z1d1ko

post #109 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

Actually TREEFITER, the entire body need to participate in the flexing and extending and that includes the upper body. The idea is to keep your head traveling along a path parallel to the overall slope. Just like the ceiling of the tunnel would represent. There seems to be a misunderstanding about how the entire body would have to move to absorb especially beyond the RoM available in just the legs. Not to mention dropping the hips below the knees, even without much load is pretty risky to your ACL's. Someone mentioned the Vertical Range Test and if you investigate it further you would see a tuck being part of that and a tuck involves the shoulders and arms moving forward to mitigate the overall stance falling aft when we flex that deeply.

 

Perhaps tactics need to be discussed a little more and especially the idea of not taking on the big impact of a line too directly into the next mogul crest. It is a function of the same staccato edge set and RPO release and projecting the core too directly down the hill. Rounder turns where you finish your turns more and project your core towards the apex of the next turn instead of the top of the next mogul is the key. Eventually you will return to zipper line turns if you wish but with the significant change of not slamming the edges into the next mogul after the big rotary pivot move.

 

As far as the hands, well disciplined hands are a hallmark of all good skiers for a reason. Same goes for a good pole grip where the pinky and ring finger are used as much if not more than the first two fingers. I still remember a comment from a past mentor of mine (Serge Couttet) who scolded me for extending my pinkies and flicking my poles rather than planting it vertically and snapping my wrist. The PG version is that is it was too effeminate and it suggested I was not moving the shoulder and body far enough into the turn for the pole to be planted vertically. Years later Katy Fry shared  the same idea (without the derogatory comment) with our training groups and she mentioned how her mentor changed her pole plant as part of her demo team training. Considering her tenure on that team it was worth paying attention when she shared one of the things the team selectors looked for at the team try outs. According to her, swinging the arm forward and following it into the turn was something many did back in the day but it was replaced by keeping the hand forward and using an ulnar deviation of the wrist, then to complete the pole plant all you need to do is pronate the hand. "Never show the back of your hand to the bottom of the hill" was part of that advice.

 

As far as core tension and functional upper body tension, well the strong pole grip tends to quiet down the arms and prevents the dropping hand but if the shoulder drops aft and down, or if the pelvis rotates into the turn the whole system breaks down and excessive rotary is the usual outcome. Then again WC stars reaching to block a gate can resemble this shoulder position but if you look lower the rest of their body is usually spot on. Not always though since recoveries are a big part of racing that fast. Anyways some tension quiets the arms and shoulders, too much makes them rigid and they get bounced around rather easily. It's a Goldilocks thing to find that just right zone but imagine carrying a long rather heavy pole. Too little grip and arm tension and you drop it, Too much tension and it swings around uncontrollably. The core by comparison is held with a lot more tension, just like when doing perturbation drills. A favorite of mine is the reciprocal pairs pushing on each other's shoulder. At first letting the shoulder gives way to the partner's hand pushing on it. That is pretty relaxed. Then the shoulder is held in place by resisiting the hand pushing on it. That's pretty strongly engaged. The later is closer to the amount of core tension we should carry but the ironic part of that is we really can't consciously engage the core muscles like we can the superficial abdominals. I've found the core takes care of that better if we do some perturbation training in our daily work outs.

Great post!

 

What you are saying about the vertical range of motion makes sense, especially when you put it in the context of a tuck.  I think my understanding isn't too far off.  Instead of trying to keep my head traveling parallel to the slope down the fall line, I've always tried to do so with my center of mass.  I've based this on pro mogul skiers, where their upper body is extremely quiet, and most of their movements happen below the waste. 

 

Most of what you describe with regard to the pole plant seems to make sense as well, but there are a few examples of unbelievable mogul skiers that don't use a firm vertical pole plant.  Justine Dufour Lapointe is one example, as well as her sisters.  They extend the tip of their pole way ahead of themselves as they approach the mogul.  I remember thinking it looked kind of weird the first time I saw it.  That being said, if you watch the American bump skiers, they do use a more powerful vertical pole plant, and the result is beautiful (watch Hannah Kearney).  

 

As far as upper body tension, that seems like it would almost take care of itself as long as the core strength is there to do it. Its kind of like telling someone to be athletic.  Its not really an issue for an athletic person, but if you aren't in shape, its not something you can do.  

post #110 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

jasp, what's the pole plant move? When you say pronate the wrist, does that mean say with the knuckles vertical, you rotate it to palm down?

 

Lot's of good stuff here. The lower angle bump run looks much better.

I'll just give you one thing. Whatever pitch, get your legs to work as one unit. Still balanced on and edging with the outside ski, but two legs act together. Do it on the non bump groomed in short turns as practice.

 

Here's an image for you:

 

http://youtu.be/yIhw0z1d1ko

I think my abilities in the low slope bumps demonstrates that a big part of my problem on the steeps is mental.  I have the ability to make the turns and to absorb to and extent, but on the steep it all just falls apart.  There is definitely room for improvement in my technique, even on the easier bumps, but I need to get past whatever mental blocks are holding me back on the steeps as well.

 

I've noticed the need to be more two footed as well.  Its often one of the things I'm thinking about while skiing bumps.  When I was younger, I had to learn to ski with my feet further apart, and now its coming back to bite me, because I've taught myself not to let them come together.  So in a narrow trough, the farther apart the two feet are, the more difference in the terrain underfoot.  

 

It's just something I'll have to practice I guess. 

post #111 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post

 

I've noticed the need to be more two footed as well.  Its often one of the things I'm thinking about while skiing bumps.  When I was younger, I had to learn to ski with my feet further apart, and now its coming back to bite me, because I've taught myself not to let them come together.  So in a narrow trough, the farther apart the two feet are, the more difference in the terrain underfoot.  

 

It's just something I'll have to practice I guess. 

 

The rocker/wobble board-squat dryland exercise can be done with a narrow stance. I even focus on putting weight on my big toe side and let the unweighted foot touch the board with the little toe side. When squatting. I try to arch the small of the back, so that it won't fold over. The plant can be done with a casting motion.

 

Basically, that dryland can be done to reinforce these subtle but yet important movements into muscle memory. 

post #112 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post
 

Great post!

 

What you are saying about the vertical range of motion makes sense, especially when you put it in the context of a tuck.  I think my understanding isn't too far off.  Instead of trying to keep my head traveling parallel to the slope down the fall line, I've always tried to do so with my center of mass.  I've based this on pro mogul skiers, where their upper body is extremely quiet, and most of their movements happen below the waste. 

 

Most of what you describe with regard to the pole plant seems to make sense as well, but there are a few examples of unbelievable mogul skiers that don't use a firm vertical pole plant.  Justine Dufour Lapointe is one example, as well as her sisters.  They extend the tip of their pole way ahead of themselves as they approach the mogul.  I remember thinking it looked kind of weird the first time I saw it.  That being said, if you watch the American bump skiers, they do use a more powerful vertical pole plant, and the result is beautiful (watch Hannah Kearney).

 

As far as upper body tension, that seems like it would almost take care of itself as long as the core strength is there to do it. Its kind of like telling someone to be athletic.  Its not really an issue for an athletic person, but if you aren't in shape, its not something you can do.

 

 

I think until the perception that movement below the pelvis is more important than the movement above the pelvis there will be difficulty in how a person manages force absorbption. Hopefully know one would read that as saying the movement below the pelvis is not important, but the idea that trunk is quiet and not dynamic for bump skier or any skier will be a barrier.  I watch bumpers and do not see movmeent stopping at the COM, using the COM as a reference point there is movement in all directions surrounding it, not just below it

 

good luck LF

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