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Are there any triple black diamonds in the west? - Page 5

post #121 of 148
I think we are just correlating big cliffs to high level skiing, given it is near suicide to correlate them to low level skiing.
post #122 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

A close friend of mine is family to a very well known cliff hucker (most people here have probably heard of him).  70+ feet is a major cut off point according to him... and the idea that any gaper can just huck himself off a cliff and land correctly without serious injury is laughable.  It takes a lot more than balls and dumb luck, there's serious analysis and skill involved.

 

i wasn't debating that. all i was trying to say is that i don't think the actual act of jumping off a 100-foot cliff, not landing on your feet, and surviving the fall is a useful display of technical skiing skills. i didn't say it wasn't a display of skills.

 

but hey, that's just, like, my opinion, man.

post #123 of 148
^^^^that post is why humans bothered with the word pedantic.
post #124 of 148

you need to be pedantic if you don't want people on the internet to misinterpret what you say.

post #125 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by treeski7 View Post
 

 

i wasn't debating that. all i was trying to say is that i don't think the actual act of jumping off a 100-foot cliff, not landing on your feet, and surviving the fall is a useful display of technical skiing skills. i didn't say it wasn't a display of skills.

 

but hey, that's just, like, my opinion, man.

 

I'm honestly not concerned with whether or not people consider it skiing - my only point was that those who act like skiing off a big cliff and landing correctly just takes balls and no skill are being ridiculous.

post #126 of 148
To people claim that jumping a big cliff without skiing out of it is easy... If you have not done it, you don't know what you are talking about. You can jump a big cliff anyday and most likely would die in the process. Getting out if if alive requires serious skills. I don't like big cliff hucking, I don't consider it beautiful skiing but claiming that it does not involve skills is ridiculous.
post #127 of 148
I don't think anyone has said that. You're arguing with ghosts. All anyone has said is that the jump itself isn't skiing.
post #128 of 148

^^ Welcome to EpicSki.  Wait, you've been here since 2005 and really think we're arguing against ghosts?  If it wasn't out-right stated in this thread it was certainly alluded to.

post #129 of 148

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

As long as we're discussing the ridiculously hard --at what height does an air become big enough that you get credit for it even if you can't ski out of the bomb hole or have to land it on your back to avoid injury? Obviously the pitch of the landing and the depth of snow factor in, but there must be some point at which skiing away isn't possible (and then we can devote the next five pages to a discussion of whether it can be called skiing or not). My son claims 30 feet but I think that means that's the highest HE can land--I know people ski away from bigger stuff than that. There is an interesting story in Squallywood by Rick Sylvester about jumping Adrenalin Rock--50-65 feet to a flat landing and almost suffocating before an onlooker dug him out. Apparently a partner with a shovel at the bottom is recommended but Rick didn't know that. (Some years ago at Sugar Bowl there was a snowboarder who liked to jump a cliff in the Crow's Nest area, without his board. They found his board at the top of the cliff and the boarder dead, buried in the snow at the bottom.)

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

A close friend of mine is family to a very well known cliff hucker (most people here have probably heard of him).  70+ feet is a major cut off point according to him... and the idea that any gaper can just huck himself off a cliff and land correctly without serious injury is laughable.  It takes a lot more than balls and dumb luck, there's serious analysis and skill involved.

 

Disclosure- largest I have ever done in my life is around 30 feet. Haven't done anything over 15 in as many years after an off-season severe knee injury. I can't count on the knee being able to absorb an impact, so the allure of skis leaving the snow is very limited these days.  The largest stuff I drop these days by choice is cornices, which is really a different game.

 

That said, there are a ton of variables that really matter to the original question. Obviously the biggest of these is what the landing looks like. 30 feet and a flat landing can be enough where you would be lucky to escape without injury, while 50 feet with a perfect landing zone could be something you decide to practice your frontflip technique on.

 

What's the limit that you can ski out of? Huge. Again, with the perfect landing, that could be 150-200 feet by the right skier. But, in most cases over 50-75 feet, you are hedging your bets by coming in on your tails- if you still have forward momentum after the snow has absorbed the vertical momentum, great, you "landed" it. Otherwise, you are minimizing your chances of injury.

 

I can only shake my head at the number of comments that skiing cliffs are not skiing skills. They are, they just aren't a skill you use. Yet another case of epic skiers narrowly defining skiing to only include the disciplines they have interest in. As others have pointed out, if skiing cliffs was not a skiing activity you would actually find some people kicking 50 footers that you could out-ski. 

post #130 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
 

 

 

Disclosure- largest I have ever done in my life is around 30 feet. Haven't done anything over 15 in as many years after an off-season severe knee injury. I can't count on the knee being able to absorb an impact, so the allure of skis leaving the snow is very limited these days.  The largest stuff I drop these days by choice is cornices, which is really a different game.

 

That said, there are a ton of variables that really matter to the original question. Obviously the biggest of these is what the landing looks like. 30 feet and a flat landing can be enough where you would be lucky to escape without injury, while 50 feet with a perfect landing zone could be something you decide to practice your frontflip technique on.

 

What's the limit that you can ski out of? Huge. Again, with the perfect landing, that could be 150-200 feet by the right skier. But, in most cases over 50-75 feet, you are hedging your bets by coming in on your tails- if you still have forward momentum after the snow has absorbed the vertical momentum, great, you "landed" it. Otherwise, you are minimizing your chances of injury.

 

I can only shake my head at the number of comments that skiing cliffs are not skiing skills. They are, they just aren't a skill you use. Yet another case of epic skiers narrowly defining skiing to only include the disciplines they have interest in. As others have pointed out, if skiing cliffs was not a skiing activity you would actually find some people kicking 50 footers that you could out-ski.

 

I will have to respectfully disagree with the bolded statement above. One cannot maintain posture control during a 150-200 ft drop and I believe a back landing bomb hole is the only option. At least that is what I have heard. I'm cornice drop only as well at this point. If what you mean by perfect landing is pop-up after bomb hole explosion and ski away, then I agree.

post #131 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by agreen View Post
 

 

I will have to respectfully disagree with the bolded statement above. One cannot maintain posture control during a 150-200 ft drop and I believe a back landing bomb hole is the only option. At least that is what I have heard. I'm cornice drop only as well at this point. If what you mean by perfect landing is pop-up after bomb hole explosion and ski away, then I agree.


Yes, that's what I mean. To me, you have "landed it" if you have maintained horizontal movement- you land, pop up, ski out without a stop, an ejection, a tomahawk, etc.

 

And by "perfect landing" I meant perfect conditions in the landing zone in terms of slope, snowpack, and lack of obstacles. 

 

If we are talking landing on the skis in a skiing posture, the upper limit is probably somewhere in the vicinity of 50 feet, but again hugely dependent on the landing zone.

 

I'll never forget giving myself a black eye with my knee when I convinced myself I could land a 15 foot to  packed flat through leg strength.


Edited by anachronism - 4/13/14 at 7:52pm
post #132 of 148

Got it. Yeah I did a but, back, head smack thing on a 20 footer to flat hard pack. I was 18. Those days are long, long, gone

post #133 of 148

I have a tendency when dropping in at an angle to something steep to lean into the hill, with the expected result. My son taught me to call that a hip check. 

post #134 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

I have a tendency when dropping in at an angle to something steep to lean into the hill, with the expected result. My son taught me to call that a hip check. 

 

a/k/a the Scot Schmidt technique...

post #135 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
 

 

a/k/a the Scot Schmidt technique...

Comparing me to Scot Schmidt. Works for me.

post #136 of 148

I know very few people on EpicSki who can jump a good size cliff (I cannot).  I know a lot more people talking about jumping cliffs on EpicSki...  

post #137 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post
 

I know very few people on EpicSki who can jump a good size cliff (I cannot).  I know a lot more people talking about jumping cliffs on EpicSki...

 

And usually what they talk about is how little skill it takes. Maybe the two are related...

post #138 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post
 

I know very few people on EpicSki who can jump a good size cliff (I cannot).  I know a lot more people talking about jumping cliffs on EpicSki...  

 

So true.  The biggest cliff I've ever dropped was just a few weeks ago and it was... maybe 20-25 feet (one of those right along Granite Chief so you could scout it from the chair).  Definitely enough to get my heart racing.  I back-slapped in the 1-2 feet of snow in the landing and then skied out; it was a total rush, but it gave me a whole new respect for what going larger would be like.  There's a ton of BS around here on the subject in general.

 

Here's someone else hitting the same spot during my next ride up.  On the internet this is no big deal but in the real world I had to work myself up to it.  Then I saw a 10-12 year old hit a much larger cliff and was quickly put in my place.  ;-)

 

post #139 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

 

So true.  The biggest cliff I've ever dropped was just a few weeks ago and it was... maybe 20-25 feet (one of those right along Granite Chief so you could scout it from the chair).  Definitely enough to get my heart racing.  I back-slapped in the 1-2 feet of snow in the landing and then skied out; it was a total rush, but it gave me a whole new respect for what going larger would be like.  There's a ton of BS around here on the subject in general.

 

Here's someone else hitting the same spot during my next ride up.  On the internet this is no big deal but in the real world I had to work myself up to it.  Then I saw a 10-12 year old hit a much larger cliff and was quickly put in my place.  ;-)

 

 

This is so true.  I wonder if many of the people talking about how little skill is required have even stood at the top of even a small 10 foot booter. From the top, you can't see your landing, all you see is the void of open space in front of you. Then you have to come off at speed, and only when you are airborne do you get the opportunity to see where you are going to land. Its a leap of faith that you have the skills to plant the landing. Its scary, even when you know there is so much snow in the landing that you could swan dive in and still be ok.

 

I've seen crappy skiers attempt to drop cliffs, usually goaded on by their "buddies." I've never seen it go well- about half the time the person brakes right before they leave the snow and contacts the cliff on the way down. If they manage to avoid this, then they are playing pick up the gear. For 99% of crappy skiers, once is enough, and then if they really want to get in the habit, they become better skiers. I've never ever ever seen somebody that can reliably and safely drop something in the 30-40 foot range that wasn't a very good skier.

post #140 of 148

I drop small cliffs.  The process is usually: (1) soul searching, (2) go, (3) momentary thrill, (4) wonder what I was worried about.  I don't do larger cliffs.

post #141 of 148

Um, the average degrees of McConkey's is 51 degrees.

2.6 meters at the top are 68.4 degrees.

There you go.

post #142 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post
 

Spoken like a skier from New Jersey...

 

For the benefit of general readership- Tram Face at Squaw is an illegal area, you cannot ski it because of the avalanche risk to the houses and condos below (thats the official line- rumor mill says that patrol got tires of rescuing stranded skiers when they tried to open it, those who know Squaw history better than I do please chime in).  The lines you "see" in the photo do have a history of being skied, in fact some get skied almost every year usually at the first light of day when the mountain is closed (it required hiding near the tram tower and waiting overnight for the daybreak).  The two chutes from the top are the most famous, the right (Mole Chute) is so narrow that it was first skied on short skis (I believe by Tom Mole).  Another famous line is Sylvester's, the one with a dead tree right in the middle of a choke (named after Rick Sylvester (sp?).  To appreciate what Tram Face is, take a tram and just look down from the cabin as it passes over the face.  Even looking into that terrain from the tram is plenty scary, those are sustained 70 degree chutes with rocks in the middle.  I cannot imagine what skiing it feels like.  


Must be rather rocky. 73* is when snow does not stick anymore. ;)

post #143 of 148
California maritime snow sticks well, this is one of the reasons why Squaw is what it is. Here the snow sticks to steep aspects.
Edited by alexzn - 4/19/14 at 8:40pm
post #144 of 148
Most places just go up to two black diamonds for one of the (or all) following reasons: (1.) They have no trail that could go up for the 3x black diamond rating. (2.) The ski area thinks that trails that could be rated a triple black diamond are "simply suicidal." (3.) They use an alternative rating. In some resorts in the Rockies (Ex: Whistler Blackcomb), they use 2 black diamonds with an EX in the middle.
post #145 of 148

post #146 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkiDude View Post

Most places just go up to two black diamonds for one of the (or all) following reasons: (1.) They have no trail that could go up for the 3x black diamond rating. (2.) The ski area thinks that trails that could be rated a triple black diamond are "simply suicidal." (3.) They use an alternative rating. In some resorts in the Rockies (Ex: Whistler Blackcomb), they use 2 black diamonds with an EX in the middle.

 

4. Their marketing departing is smart enough to realize that a triple diamond designation will be ridiculed by 10x as many people as it impresses.

post #147 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkiDude View Post

...  In some resorts in the Rockies (Ex: Whistler Blackcomb),...

 

Might we interest you in a basic ski area geography course?   :)

post #148 of 148

Great thread drift, I'm sorry I missed out.  Thanks SkiDude for resurrecting it.

 

An old acquaintance who is a heli guide was at Aspen I think it was about 20 years ago.  The girl he was skiing with took him into some trees and he saw a cliff warning then lost her.  Continuing he saw the land end and had time for one last check turn and launched.  He ended up rolling down the window three full times when he augered into soft powder.  

 

It took him 45 minutes to dig himself out of the crater, all the time young kids were yelling at him RADICAL!

 

Ski patrol was going to bust him but his explanation of inadequate signage and no injury had them let him go.  Looking back at the drop when he made the cat track opposite the jump he estimated it to be over 100'.

 

He is not a hard charger, he seems really careful when I skied with him.

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